UFC 231 Holloway vs Ortega

[MMAOracle]

You forget that Ortega's got dreamy eyes, and has finished his fights in the UFC. 5 in a row is a very big number, there's no rational reason to think he can't keep doing it.

On reflection, and re-watching Ortega's tape, I can see why he's so divisive. There's enough 'holy fuck that was great' there for people to convince themselves that he just needs to break through and do it consistently, and there's enough 'Holy fuck he sucks' for other people to think he'll get torn apart through his gaping holes. It's actually pretty interesting, and I'm curious how he'd be rated if Guida'd lasted another 10 secs.

you also forgot he will be starring in movie soon. fuck man. someone shoulda told me this before I bet on Holloway. We all know movie stars are crazy strong like Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Johnny Cage.

 

[Kyle Stephens]

There are actually things Chookagian does better than Holly Holm. She holds her hands correctly, as opposed to Holm's moronic elbows pointed outwards, forearms pointed inwards towards her own face. She also circles on the outside much better, varying her direction, as opposed to Holm, who continually circles into the power.

https://imgflip.com/memegenerator

This seems like a phenomenally bad fight for Joanna.

I remember when I bet on KK to beat Jedrzejczyk (just because of the odds, calm down before you jump on me)... After that fight I firmly believed that the nightmare style match up for her is a heavy handed counter-striker. She is putting so much out there that her defence is not on the level her volume is. She is getting away with it for the most time, because she just doesn't fight dangerous counter-strikers, they are just not easy to find @ WMMA. I knew the best is Shev, but at the time there was not any weight class for them to meet at. I didn't even thought of Rose as a legit threat, she seemed too mentally unstable and you gotta be rock solid to beat Joanna. I knew she is dynamic and can counter with hard shots, but was questioning her in 5 rounds.

 

[Broe.]

I hope Max Holloway makes it, these weighs in really worry me. The UFC should really stop with these weight cutting its unnecessary.

I agree why not just 1 division, then we can finally see if these flyweights can match up with uberreem

 

[Kyle Stephens]

Holloway backers:
Leave to the side the questions around his weight cut and brain trauma...
What lesson I learned after Brian put gasoline on my money and lit them on fire with the Moicano sub, is that if you want to beat this guy, he gives you plenty of opportunities - fine; but, you have to stay on point the whole fucking time, not let your guard down and don't let it become messy because he thrieves in this shit.
Can I trust Holloway (assume he is 100%) won't dare Brian to hit him, or straight up brawl with him, or some other stupid macho stuff to prove he is the best and the best is blessed? Fuck no. I've seen him do this before, why won't he do it again? Just a friendly reminder.

 

[MMAFAN1995]

Any predictions/opinions/analysis on the Dawodu vs Bochniak fight? Considering a unit on Dawodu.

 

[Kyle Stephens]

Any predictions/opinions/analysis on the Dawodu vs Bochniak fight? Considering a unit on Dawodu.

We wrote about that fight. 90% of the forum thinks Dawodu's gonna whoop that ass. I personally disagree.

 

[MMAOracle]

We wrote about that fight. 90% of the forum thinks Dawodu's gonna whoop that ass. I personally disagree.

Bochiniak will win. No doubt. So you aint alone

 

[Shoulder]

Bochiniak will win. No doubt. So you aint alone

I got 0.5 U on Bochniak as well...

 

[Jordan3399]

In what fight was Eye "severly undersized"? I've been watching her old fights a lot before betting on Chookagian-Eye, and her problem is not size (she was the same size or slightly smaller than every single person she faced at 135), but a slew of mistakes in her stand-up technique as well as generally poor/slow reactions.

Eye was not "competitive" in many of her losses, either. Miesha Tate, whose stand-up downright sucks, knocked Eye down twice with right hands and beat her up standing.

This hasn't improved much over her 2 fights at 125 earlier this year, either. She was hurt by freaking Faria in the first round of their fight, and even Rose-Clark, an almost pure grappler, was holding her own striking with Eye. Eye has slightly improved one or two of her striking mistakes, but numerous gaping holes exist.



The same Davis that beat Eye, you mean? Nevermind that Chookagian beat both Borella and Aldana, who are both equal or better fighters than Eye, too.



As I noted before, this is Eye's one path to victory. That being said, the only evidence of her wrestling is beating the awful Faria in rounds 2 and 3. And that was from the clinch, where Chookagian is fairly respectable, and her takedown defense has steadily improved.



What makes it "mediocre", exactly? The fact that she is presently less famous and well-regarded?

There are actually things Chookagian does better than Holly Holm. She holds her hands correctly, as opposed to Holm's moronic elbows pointed outwards, forearms pointed inwards towards her own face. She also circles on the outside much better, varying her direction, as opposed to Holm, who continually circles into the power.

This isn't so much that I'm a fan of Chookagian (watching her awful point-fighting exhibitions is sheer torture), but that I think it's important to value reality as opposed to hype.

You need to actually go and look at the scorecards and watch all those fights cause you're frankly delusional if you think Chookagian has been that successful. The only girls to actually decisively beat Eye were dominant wrestlers and even fighters like Pena struggled. She may of lost fights but making it that competitive with title challenges and the top of the division can't just be ignored. Not to mention she has improved massively since then with her grappling.

Chookagian should of lost the Borella and Aldana fights. The Borella fight especially I remember was complete bullshit. All Chookagian does is dance around volume striking and missing constantly literally like Holly Holm but with less power and less accuracy. Its embarrassingly bad. Holm actually has decent pop on straight and kicks, I don't particularly care for how she points her elbows when she can't actually land anything.

Her TDD is 56% in the UFC which is mediocre af. Even in the Davis fight she did no better than Eye as in both media scores were split.

The only remotely impressive thing I can recall Chook doing is the headkick she managed on Carmouche. She wins fights by spamming weak punches, mostly hitting air and getting narrow decisions. She couldn't handle Carmouche but you want to criticise Eye for losses to Tate and McMann who would both of destroyed Chook?

 

[Jordan3399]

Holloway backers:
Leave to the side the questions around his weight cut and brain trauma...
What lesson I learned after Brian put gasoline on my money and lit them on fire with the Moicano sub, is that if you want to beat this guy, he gives you plenty of opportunities - fine; but, you have to stay on point the whole fucking time, not let your guard down and don't let it become messy because he thrieves in this shit.
Can I trust Holloway (assume he is 100%) won't dare Brian to hit him, or straight up brawl with him, or some other stupid macho stuff to prove he is the best and the best is blessed? Fuck no. I've seen him do this before, why won't he do it again? Just a friendly reminder.

After the gameplan Holloway pulled off not once but twice to beat Aldo, who I consider far more skilled than Ortega, then yes, I do trust him to go out and stick to a gameplan and beat him.

Honestly wouldn't be bothered if he brawled Ortega, if he can out do Aldo and Lamas in a brawl like he did then I don't see Ortega being a big issue. He's way faster in the pocket and Ortega really isn't that powerful. He never really displayed impressive punching power vs anyone.

 

[JoshTehV]

I just pieces of the Mocianno fight and T City was getting pieced up pretty bad at every range

 

[raketmannen]

After the gameplan Holloway pulled off not once but twice to beat Aldo, who I consider far more skilled than Ortega, then yes, I do trust him to go out and stick to a gameplan and beat him.

Honestly wouldn't be bothered if he brawled Ortega, if he can out do Aldo and Lamas in a brawl like he did then I don't see Ortega being a big issue. He's way faster in the pocket and Ortega really isn't that powerful. He never really displayed impressive punching power vs anyone.

But he was not winning the early rounds against Aldo, he ate some huge bombs from him, especially in the first fight, he started winning when Aldo started slowing down significantly. He broke him with his pace, but Aldo is notoriously known for slowing down, we haven't really seen that from Ortega yet. I think it would be wiser for Holloway to try and stick on the outside and outpoint rather than pouring on the pressure from the get go

 

[ViolenceFight]

Edgar was way past his prime in that fight and fought pretty badly. Repetitive combinations and afraid to grapple.

Anyone who has to say stuff like 'mark these words' is just trying to add some additional dramatic weight to what they are saying cause their actual argument is so weak. If all you can say is 'Max doesn't look right' then you clearly haven't got decent justification for your opinion.

Mark these words, Ortega takes it on Saturday. He’s more skilled on the ground, he has heavier hands, & he’s fresher than Max. Not to mention, Max still doesn’t look right & sounds like he’s thinking & speaking in slow-motion. Mark these words son, mark these words. I’ll be back on Sunday to ask you who was right.

 

[Gugabe]

Mark these words, Ortega takes it on Saturday. He’s more skilled on the ground, he has heavier hands, & he’s fresher than Max. Not to mention, Max still doesn’t look right & sounds like he’s thinking & speaking in slow-motion. Mark these words son, mark these words. I’ll be back on Sunday to ask you who was right.

F-.

Ortega doesn't defend legkicks, bodyshots or actually pursue his grappling game with any consistency. Holloway does have more KOs than Ortega.

I just pieces of the Mocianno fight and T City was getting pieced up pretty bad at every range

Honestly feel like Moicano rededicated himself to legkicking after the Ortega fight. Ortega skillfully baited Moicano away from using the legkicks he was landing hard at will, via absorbing so many headshots that Moicano got caught up in swinging for it. Stick-and-move, destroying the legs seems like the sensible solution here.

 

[ViolenceFight]

F-.

Ortega doesn't defend legkicks, bodyshots or actually pursue his grappling game with any consistency. Holloway does have more KOs than Ortega.


Honestly feel like Moicano rededicated himself to legkicking after the Ortega fight. Ortega skillfully baited Moicano away from using the legkicks he was landing hard at will, via absorbing so many headshots that Moicano got caught up in swinging for it. Stick-and-move, destroying the legs seems like the sensible solution here.

After Sunday when max loses, I’m gonna come back & ask you what happened. We’ll see who gets the F for their analysis. Good luck, your boy Holloway is now the underdog because people are starting to realize Ortega will probably take this.

 

[Jordan3399]

But he was not winning the early rounds against Aldo, he ate some huge bombs from him, especially in the first fight, he started winning when Aldo started slowing down significantly. He broke him with his pace, but Aldo is notoriously known for slowing down, we haven't really seen that from Ortega yet. I think it would be wiser for Holloway to try and stick on the outside and outpoint rather than pouring on the pressure from the get go

Ortega definitely has better cardio I was more using it as an example of Max being able to stick to a great gameplan perfectly. Everyone talks about Aldo's cardio but neither Frankie or Chad had slowed Aldo (who is far more skilled than Ortega too) down effectively before that so the way Max continually applied pressure so effectively really impressed me.
Equally we've seen vs guys like Stephens and Lamas how he can just pick guys apart on the outside the whole fight and win a one sided decision so its not like he doesn't know to fight smart.

Ortega has great cardio but I think that by the 4th or 5th if Max rips the body like he normally does I expect we'll notice Max pulling ahead by a solid margin, given how Ortega reacted to the bodyshots of Cub.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

You need to actually go and look at the scorecards and watch all those fights cause you're frankly delusional if you think Chookagian has been that successful.

The only girls to actually decisively beat Eye were dominant wrestlers and even fighters like Pena struggled.

You should take your own advice and rewatch Tate-Eye. Tate didn't win that fight with her wrestling, but by knocking down and badly hurting Eye with her right hands.

You also conveniently ignore that Bethe Correia (to list just one example), neither a dominant wrestler or even a decent striker, beat Eye 2 out of 3 rounds, "decisively" or not.

She may of lost fights but making it that competitive with title challenges and the top of the division can't just be ignored. Not to mention she has improved massively since then with her grappling.

What actual evidence is there of Eye improving "massively since then with her grappling"?

Chookagian should of lost the Borella and Aldana fights. The Borella fight especially I remember was complete bullshit.

Then your memory isn't very good, and I would suggest keeping a written record of what you watch. While both were boring, there is no reasonable criteria where either Borella and Aldana beat Chookagian. I'm actually amazed anyone would suggest otherwise. Or were you someone who thought Nunes won all 5 rounds against Shevchenko in their rematch, too?

The only remotely impressive thing I can recall Chook doing is the headkick she managed on Carmouche. She wins fights by spamming weak punches, mostly hitting air and getting narrow decisions. She couldn't handle Carmouche but you want to criticise Eye for losses to Tate and McMann who would both of destroyed Chook?

I'm sure at this point you haven't even watched Eye's fight versus Tate. And you were obviously not paying attention to any of Chookagian's fights (citing the UFC's TDD percentage, a completely irrelevant stat, only reinforces this), which I can't blame you for, they were boring as fuck, except you shouldn't be arguing about her, then.

What's really funny is that you take Chookagian to task for being a point fighter, but then champion Eye, who is every bit a point fighter herself, except with way more technical flaws and defensive holes.

 

[Jordan3399]

Mark these words, Ortega takes it on Saturday. He’s more skilled on the ground, he has heavier hands, & he’s fresher than Max. Not to mention, Max still doesn’t look right & sounds like he’s thinking & speaking in slow-motion. Mark these words son, mark these words. I’ll be back on Sunday to ask you who was right.

You're such an amateur bettor it's just funny. You're analysis sucks, you just got beginners luck same as most and you let it go straight to your head. You'll disappear as soon as you go on your first loss streak and that'll be that. Betting isn't about saying this will happen or that will happen with 100% certainty its the probability of each outcome happening. If you are as confident as you claim to be in Ortega your whole bank roll would be on him cause if it WILL happen then what are you risking?

 

[WetBlanket]

link to weigh ins? Aint they soon?

 

[Jordan3399]

You should take your own advice and rewatch Tate-Eye. Tate didn't win that fight with her wrestling, but by knocking down and badly hurting Eye with her right hands.

You also conveniently ignore that Bethe Correia (to list just one example), neither a dominant wrestler or even a decent striker, beat Eye 2 out of 3 rounds, "decisively" or not.



What actual evidence is there of Eye improving "massively since then with her grappling"?



Then your memory isn't very good, and I would suggest keeping a written record of what you watch. While both were boring, there is no reasonable criteria where either Borella and Aldana beat Chookagian. I'm actually amazed anyone would suggest otherwise. Or were you someone who thought Nunes won all 5 rounds against Shevchenko in their rematch, too?



I'm sure at this point you haven't even watched Eye's fight versus Tate. And you were obviously not paying attention to any of Chookagian's fights (citing the UFC's TDD percentage, a completely irrelevant stat, only reinforces this), which I can't blame you for, they were boring as fuck, except you shouldn't be arguing about her, then.

What's really funny is that you take Chookagian to task for being a point fighter, but then champion Eye, who is every bit a point fighter herself, except with way more technical flaws and defensive holes.

Chook lost those fights cause her strikes were insignificant af. The Borella fight especially was a joke where the only meaningful strikes for most of the fight were her leg kicks on Chook and a takedown she landed.

Its amazing you quote the Nunes Shevchenko fight when it basically reinforces my point. Nunes did exactly the same as Chook with the weak volume strikes to win rounds leading to a robbery after her opponent landed far more effective shots. Getting the decision doesn't mean it as the right decision go and look at the fight, plus media scoring. You'd realise most media gave the Bethe fight to Eye and said Chook lost fights like her one with Aldana.

Yes I've seen the Tate fight. Not sure what relevance it has to anything given Chook would of been dominated by Tate who also fights totally different to her. The fact Tate landed a big right hand early vs a much smaller fighter (pretty much the MMA wrestler standard) rather than using wrestling means little. Its not like Chook has anywhere near that power anyway.

The only real significant threat Chook that gives me some concern is if she repeats the headkick she landed on Carmouche given what happened when Eye fought Faria.