Does Gracie Barra actually have a system that involves striking?

[karatefoo]

See above question.

I had also rolled with a few GB students and it seems like they often get promoted too quickly. Is their system more of a self defense that includes strikes or do they focus on sport bjj?

 

[Os3y3ris]

Their cyberbullying program helps trash grapplers feel they're superior so it's ok to underperform.

 

[DoctorTaco]

No.

 

[Nnedd]

I go their open mats because it's a chill environment, and there are people from all over town. It's a good atmosphere.

I say that because I want to qualify that I like lots of GB guys and enjoy going to their school for open training.

They have a "Strike Based BJJ" program, that they sometimes call "Vale Tudo Style" training. They post videos and such on their social media.

It's....not good. I watched video of a round once that was mostly two guys on the their knees, lightly boxing eachother, on their knees.

Boxing from the knees.

They were training boxing, on the knees. From what I've seen, that about sums up the quality of the strike based training that I've seen in their school.

Anyhow, that's my story.

 

[EndlessCritic]

lightly boxing eachother, on their knees.

Boxing from the knees.

They were training boxing, on the knees. From what I've seen, that about sums up the quality of the strike based training that I've seen in their school.

Anyhow, that's my story.

I fail to see how boxing from the knees is any more pointless than starting a grappling round from the knees.

 

[StanClarker]

Judo does, but we
don't practice it.

 

[Old Man]

I fail to see how boxing from the knees is any more pointless than starting a grappling round from the knees.

If you want maximize time spent ground fighting, should you start on the feet? If that's true, then I guess the best way to train boxing would be to start on the ground.

 

[EndlessCritic]

If you want maximize time spent ground fighting, should you start on the feet? If that's true, then I guess the best way to train boxing would be to start on the ground.

You can start in any other position on the ground.

 

[ChickenBrother]

You can start in any other position on the ground.

This.

Starting from knees is the single most idiotic habit I've developed in training. What kills me is that I'm used to it now and reflexively go to my knees sometimes if we both stand up during a roll. Even BJJ competition matches start on the feet FFS.

If you want to skip the takedown phase just start in guard, half-guard or back to back. Starting from knees wastes time and instills bad habits.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

If you want to skip the takedown phase just start in guard, half-guard or back to back. Starting from knees wastes time and instills bad habits.

Start from any kind of guard and ... back to back (WTF?) wouldn't just do the same thing? Instill bad habit?

If anything looks even worse, both on their knees is neutral, starting with one on the other's guard is not.

 

[Old Man]

Starting from knees is the single most idiotic habit I've developed in training. What kills me is that I'm used to it now and reflexively go to my knees sometimes if we both stand up during a roll.

It's just a neutral position. If you are not able to smoothly start rolling, then you're doing it wrong:

 

[ChickenBrother]

It's just a neutral position. If you are not able to smoothly start rolling, then you're doing it wrong:

That's precisely the problem. The only way to "smoothly start rolling" is if at least one guy immediately concedes takedown position. Conceding takedown position is terrible practice for every form of grappling including MMA, except under BJJ competition rules. But even if that's your game, best practice would be start from feet and practice pulling guard, as you would do in competition.

Our BJJ gym has been starting from guard lately which I greatly prefer. They teach to try for TD but guard is OK if you get put there, or are able to achieve it organically.

 

[Old Man]

Our BJJ gym has been starting from guard lately which I greatly prefer. They teach to try for TD but guard is OK if you get put there, or are able to achieve it organically.

Do you mean that you are doing specific sparring, where you start in full guard?

 

[ChickenBrother]

Do you mean that you are doing specific sparring, where you start in full guard?

Yes. Implication being you were either taken down into guard, or you successfully pulled guard without getting passed (or you were swept). Top and bottom man swap positions each round. If a gym owner wants to avoid takedowns for liability reasons I can understand this approach. But facing off with both guys on knees is a position that doesn't occur organically in grappling even under BJJ rules.

 

[Old Man]

That's precisely the problem. The only way to "smoothly start rolling" is if at least one guy immediately concedes takedown position. Conceding takedown position is terrible practice for every form of grappling including MMA, except under BJJ competition rules. But even if that's your game, best practice would be start from feet and practice pulling guard, as you would do in competition.

We have a D1 All-American at my academy. Almost every time I've seen him rolling, he's on the bottom. If he didn't "concede takedown position", he'd never learn BJJ. And there would be no reason for him to practice pulling guard, because that's not where he wants the match to go. In competition he is absolutely mauling people from the top. He won the No-gi Worlds at purple belt, a couple of weeks after being promoted.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Our BJJ gym has been starting from guard lately which I greatly prefer

This seems like a terrible way to train in my opinion. One of you starts already on guard and the other already with someone in it.

Honestly, I can't see the advantages it has over starting training on the knees. One method completely discards one of the steps, takedown or throwing. The other method in turn continues to discard the same step, and also discards starting from a neutral position and going directly to a position.

Conceding takedown position is terrible practice for every form of grappling including MMA

Training grappling without taking striking into account is also, yet it is done.

For MMA and self defense, they are specifically training for. I was not interested in BJJ myself because of sporting BJJ or Grappling competitions like the ADCC. I became interested because of the BJJ used in MMA, which is as close as we have access to what BJJ was really meant to be used for, and yet not ideal because of the rules, such as no elbows in the back of the head of the opponent.

Sports BJJ is a reflection of BJJ's popularity, which in turn is due to its use and success in MMA.

To me, someone pointing out the lack of training in Jiu-Jitsu in takedowns and throws seems wrong, even hypocritical, when in other more popular forms of grappling things like any form of submission and single legs is prohibited.

Interestingly, BJJ continues to be used successfully in both grappling and MMA despite this habit of starting on the knees.

We have a D1 All-American at my academy. Almost every time I've seen him rolling, he's on the bottom. If he didn't "concede takedown position", he'd never learn BJJ. And there would be no reason for him to practice pulling guard, because that's not where he wants the match to go. In competition he is absolutely mauling people from the top. He won the No-gi Worlds at purple belt, a couple of weeks after being promoted.

Not only that, jiujiteiros are mostly hobbyists. They are not people who want, and many cannot, practice takedowns and throws. What, by the way, would make BJJ just Judo or Wrestling with another name, so what good would it do?

Takedowns and throws hurts, leave marks, and it's not so much fun. People can just cross train if they want to learn other things.

 

[ChickenBrother]

We have a D1 All-American at my academy. Almost every time I've seen him rolling, he's on the bottom. If he didn't "concede takedown position", he'd never learn BJJ. And there would be no reason for him to practice pulling guard, because that's not where he wants the match to go. In competition he is absolutely mauling people from the top. He won the No-gi Worlds at purple belt, a couple of weeks after being promoted.

I think you're making my point for me. That's why IMO it's better to start from guard, to get better there. As a former wrestler myself (8 years wrestling and Judo), I spent my first 2 years training with BJJ guys rarely getting put on my back. My TD and top game is much much better than my guard game. Like you said, I don't want to get in the habit of pulling guard or conceding takedowns from a neutral position. But that's what's been happening over the past 3 years starting from knees. I want to be well rounded and improve my guard game so I can take more risks when I'm on top.

 

[Old Man]

Yes. Implication being you were either taken down into guard, or you successfully pulled guard without getting passed (or you were swept). Top and bottom man swap positions each round. If a gym owner wants to avoid takedowns for liability reasons I can understand this approach. But facing off with both guys on knees is a position that doesn't occur organically in grappling even under BJJ rules.

That is specific sparring, and that's a great way to train different positions. A lot of instructors put a heavy emphasis on this. My instructor will often have us do a whole bunch of 1 minute or 2 minute rounds starting in a single position. That way you get in a lot of repetitions with positions you might not often find yourself in during regular sparring.

And that's the same reason for starting sparring sessions on the ground in a neutral position. You immediately get to work on your ground fighting. You don't have to spend time working for takedowns, if that's not what you want to work that day. A lot of people complain that academies where people always start sparring from the knees aren't teaching their students how to get the fight to the ground. That is a valid complaint. But that is a different subject than this one. If you want to maximize time on the ground, then just get on the ground and start sparring.

 

[ChickenBrother]

That is specific sparring, and that's a great way to train different positions. A lot of instructors put a heavy emphasis on this. My instructor will often have us do a whole bunch of 1 minute or 2 minute rounds starting in a single position. That way you get in a lot of repetitions with positions you might not often find yourself in during regular sparring.

And that's the same reason for starting sparring sessions on the ground in a neutral position. You immediately get to work on your ground fighting. You don't have to spend time working for takedowns, if that's not what you want to work that day. A lot of people complain that academies where people always start sparring from the knees aren't teaching their students how to get the fight to the ground. That is a valid complaint. But that is a different subject than this one. If you want to maximize time on the ground, then just get on the ground and start sparring.

I still fail to see how starting from knees offers any advantage over starting in guard. If as you say, the intent is to maximize time on the ground, why not start in a ground position that actually occurs in rolling rather than an unnatural one that doesn't? Like you pointed out earlier, it only instills the habit of conceding a TD from a neutral position. And it's a neutral position that doesn't organically occur in BJJ.

In practice, everyone can get better and needs improvement at both top and bottom games. I've found that a lot of "pure" BJJ guys are better at bottom than top and this is great for me because they want to work on their top games as much as I want to practice my guard.

 

[Old Man]

I think you're making my point for me. That's why IMO it's better to start from guard, to get better there. As a former wrestler myself (HS and club college + Judo), I spent my first 2 years training with BJJ guys rarely getting put on my back. My TD and top game is much much better than my guard game. Like you said, I don't want to get in the habit of pulling guard or conceding takedowns from a neutral position. But that's what's been happening over the past 3 years starting from knees. I want to be well rounded and improve my guard game so I can take more risks when I'm on top.

I don't see how you starting on the knees and then pulling guard is forming any habits. Being on your knees in a relaxed training environment, and then calmly and consciously pulling guard, is nothing like starting from the feet in a competition. I can't imagine you'd all of a sudden pull guard in a competition because you started some training rolls from the knees.

If you want to work exclusively on your guard, then the most efficient way is to start in that guard position. But in an academy where everyone is trying to get a bunch of rolls in, not everyone wants to work on whatever guard you're working on.