Law Is it time to stop traffic stops or have someone other than police to handle them?

[nhbbear]

I pity any man or woman who would take a job that required them to be unarmed while performing traffic stops in any major US city.

I agree. People fight with parking meter people, and those are $25 fines. Speeding and other traffic tickets are a lot more

 

[ultramanhyata]

This is exactly what liberals wanted. Less accountability in life. Some of the quotes in the OP from people justifying this are so insanely stupid and devoid of any reality.

Yet it's almost exclusively "liberty" loving right-wingers who get plate cameras and automatic issuance of tickets for red light violations shitcanned at city council meetings.

 

[nhbbear]

I think it's a tough decision, primarily because of the pretextual stops.

Simple traffic violations don't need police. Speeding, expired plates, etc. can be a simple pull over, check the records, issue the citation. I agree with the premise that if the driver knows that this is just a traffic stop without the risk of an arrest attached to it then the stakes and propensity for violence from the driver goes down. Like parking violations -- we don't use cops for those and it works just fine.

The complicated thing is the pretextual stops. I recognize the value of those things for those times were police might not have another defensible justification to stop a potential criminal. I like pretextual stops despite all of the other complications that come with them (such as the issues of DWB).

Overall though, I lean in favor of removing the police from traffic stops. This stems from what I believe is a general culture of over policing. Upholding the rule of law doesn't have to come exclusively from armed police-citizen engagements.

personally, I think that the people that run from police in no pursuit areas will run from unarmed traffic enforcers. Like I said, I am mixed on it. I can definitely see a few of them being killed out of fear that they would then call the police if an issue arose.

 

[jx820]

Not in my experiences sadly.

Its easy to know when your shit expires....write it down. I know the date of all my licenses and tags expiry for cars, hunting, fishing, kinesiology, etc. Laziness is not an excuse to be dumb. Cops should be able to pull you over, inquire on why and go from there.

I'm not saying cops shouldn't be allowed to. I'm saying that when a notice of a violation goes to an old address because you are mid-move and your license gets suspended that doesn't make you a dangerous criminal.

For every soverign citizen riding around with an unregistered street sweeper in his unregistered car, there are 5 grandmas who didn't click all the way through when renewing their registration online.

 

[nhbbear]

If they removed ticket quotas no law abiding or non criminal would have an issue with getting pulled over and receiving a warning for clear traffic violations. I have said it on here a few times but I never write tickets for traffic. I just don’t care about it and I know people fuck up since we are always in a hurry. That being said, if I pull you over completely disregarding a stop sign in a school zone and you don’t have insurance or a valid license… yea you’re probably going to take a ride to the station for a little bit.

This might sound crazy to civilians but traffic stops are actually the #1 way we get illegal guns off the streets in Chicago.

I was mostly anti ticket unless it was a more serious violation. I used to do my pretext stops to id shady people leaving crackhouses-got quite a few guns that way and served tons of warrants

 

[Badger67]

I'm not saying cops shouldn't be allowed to. I'm saying that when a notice of a violation goes to an old address because you are mid-move and your license gets suspended that doesn't make you a dangerous criminal.

For every soverign citizen riding around with an unregistered street sweeper in his unregistered car, there are 5 grandmas who didn't click all the way through when renewing their registration online.

Sure, and It isnt hard to pull them over, inquire, and let them be on their way if thats the case. Most cops wont bust people for 1 to 2 week expired shit. Otherwise, adult up.

 

[Sara]

So unarmed metermaids are going to be assaulted and shot by the criminals they try to pull over?

 

[Sara]

Pretty sure it’s the drivers responsibility to make sure their super work isn’t expired. I’m so sick of “most people don’t realize” excuse.

 

[nhbbear]

Nah, I've driven around with an expired registration. It's usually a paper work problem or beurocracy and red tape issue. People have to get to and from work regardless of their status so they're going to drive legal or not. Some people have no idead their paper work isn't valid anymore.

I am currently expired. Oops. The dmv quit doing in person registration and I have to change the address and I need a form from them to somehow submit and I work the hours they are open

 

[nhbbear]

So unarmed metermaids are going to be assaulted and shot by the criminals they try to pull over?

it will happen and everyone will ask why and how it happened

 

[panamaican]

personally, I think that the people that run from police in no pursuit areas will run from unarmed traffic enforcers. Like I said, I am mixed on it. I can definitely see a few of them being killed out of fear that they would then call the police if an issue arose.

Like I said to the other guy - if they run from the cops and they run from this group then there's no real difference in who is conducting the pullover. But for your general citizenry, non-police actors should work just fine.

And, not the be cold-hearted, will some of these people get killed? I hope not but probably. However cops die doing the same job. Pointing to that reads like a fear argument more than a real one. Fast food workers get killed in robberies, we don't use that as an argument to only let police officers work in fast food. The issue here is less one of "if" non-police can do the job. It's more an issue of the psychological elements of ceding authority from one group to another. People are always more reticent to give up something than to get something and, in this circumstance, we would be making the police "give up" traffic stops. Human psychology will make people oppose it on those grounds alone.

This isn't that far from the mental health responders scenario and in the cities that already implement crisis support teams (Eugene, Ore, Denver), they've have better than expected outcomes despite the same initial concern about people dying.
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/23/1019704823/police-mental-health-crisis-calls-new-york-city

 

[Hadron90]

How in the world is someone who’s been too lazy to go to the dmv and update their tags a threat to society? Is that what you’re trying to say? Anyone who’s tabs say 2020 is a threat?

You don't get a suspended license for expired tags. You get it for shit like DUIs. Do you really think Jon Jones should be able to flee a cocaine induced multi-vehical accident, and then be right back on the road the next day?

 

[spamking]

This is adorable that the “Don’t tread on me” type folk are now crying that cops can’t pull people over for non safety related reasons, in order to simply tread on them.

consistency people. Please.

Since when is driving a right?

 

[Hadron90]

I am in favor of traffic stops being far less invasive. Like yes, you should still get pulled over for a suspended license. But if the laws were changed so that it was not a cause to search your vehicle, even when impounded, or they no longer ran warrant searches, these stops would be a lot safer. If I know that if I smile and accept my ticket I will be free to go on my way, I'm not going to pull out a gun and start blasting. If, however, I know this ticket for rolling through a stop sign is about to get me arrested for skipping last weeks court day for missed child support payments, and I have brick of cocaine in the trunk...I might just take my chances running.

 

[shankmcgank]

But one of the things they’re no longer pulling over for is expired tags. And you were saying those are all threats to society

and again. In your example. No where did you establish that someone with expired tags is a threat to society. You just like seeing people punished for not following rules in a timely manner

You’ll still get ticketed for having expired tabs, but only if a cop pulls you over for speeding or running a red light or something that’s actually dangerous.

Canadian here, I actually live about 15 minutes away from @Badger67.

In Ontario, drivers with outdated tags are not covered by insurance companies. So, in effect, the driver is driving without insurance.

"This is perhaps one of the worst situations you can be in if you are driving without an active policy. If you are involved in an accident, you will be held personally responsible for all the repairs to your vehicle as well as any medical bills. Depending on the amount of damage or type of injuries, this could be a significant cost to you.

You will can also be fines or face charges if you are found to be held responsible for an at-fault accident."

And...

"
The fine for driving without it in Ontario varies based on the offense :

• First offense : Fines start at $5000 and could be as high as $25,000.
• Second offense : Fines start at $10,000 and could reach as high as $50,000.

What Are The Penalties For Driving Without Insurance In Ontario?
In addition to fines, there are other penalties for driving without insurance. They include :

• Suspension : You could face a driver’s license suspension for up to one year.
• Impound : You could have your vehicle impounded for up to three months.
• Additional fees : The Provincial Offense Act tacks on an additional 25% surcharge to your fine.

Can I Lose My License For Driving Without Insurance?
As part of your first offense for driving without insurance, your driver’s license will be suspended for a minimum of 30 days. You could lose your driver’s license for up to one year."

Finally...

"It is estimated that more than 2,000 uninsured vehicles are involved in accidents each year in Ontario, and about 2% of all drivers do not have proper protection, according to a Toronto Star Investigation."

https://www.thinkinsure.ca/insurance-help-centre/driving-without-insurance-in-ontario.html

Guess who gets to pay the full deductible if I get hit by an uninsured driver? Me. Why should I have to pay a single penny out of my pocket for some lazy or broke fuck, who thinks they can do whatever they want?

And that's just for expired tags, drivers with suspended licenses are usually for shit like excessive speeding, drunk driving, street racing, etc.

Instead of making excuses for, and coddling criminals, and lazy/broke people, how about we expect them to follow the same laws everyone else does?

Insurance rates go up because of lazy/broke idiots who can't be bothered to follow the same laws everyone else is. By default, these idiots are taking money from my wallet and from my family and daughter. Fuck them, they deserve every fine/punishment available.

 

[spamking]

I was just coming to say you would think these dorks would be against licensing in general. Let alone being in favor licensing enforcement.

Dorks? We're not the folks comparing a constitutional right to the privilege of driving . . . .

 

[Hadron90]

This is adorable that the “Don’t tread on me” type folk are now crying that cops can’t pull people over for non safety related reasons, in order to simply tread on them.

consistency people. Please.

Like what? If you are in favor of abolishing the DMV, I'm with you. But its up to Congress to make laws, not cops. If Congress says having expired tags is against the law, then police should enforce it. Having a bunch of laws on the books that are not enforced...or worse, selectively enforced, is not healthy.

And no, you aren't going to get me to agree that people with suspended licenses aren't a threat to others. People with recent DUI convictions or other serious auto-related offenses should not be on the road. Punishment suits the crime.

 

[Hadron90]

I like the idea.
Sorta kills the "just wanna get home to my family" angle when you are willing to jump out your own ass over a faulty license plate light.




Also think that Vehicle Safety Inspections are flawed as well and only serve to put money in the pockets of the company that makes the inspection machines.


Hell, anybody that aint a bully or a dick head overseer should be happy about this. Leads to less unnecessary interactions.

Libertarians should be all over this!

Then we should be repealing license plate laws, not just telling police to ignore those laws.

 

[Sara]

People still see driving as a right and not a privilege


Anyone has the right to obtain a driving permit. (If they meet what ever criteria) but you lose your privilege of driving when you don’t follow all the rules associated with said permit.

 

[TeTe]

The unarmed entity simply records the license plate, date and time of the noncompliance and that can be turned over to the regular police.

By the time the police get to it, an intoxicated driver could kill someone.

That's why the judgment call on who handles minor offenses becomes problematic. Someone driving erratically while committing "minor" offenses could be putting people's lives in danger. I don't care if people aren't being shaken down for having expired tags or tinted windows, but I sure as shit wouldn't want a meter maid making judgment calls when someone is swerving around the road, hitting curbs and going through lights because they're wasted and not being stopped immediately.