Dern, Ortega..and all BJJ players in general.

Clark Rogers said:
I keep telling his dad that. Get him in BJJ, hell maybe even judo. Can't use all the techniques, granted, but it would increase his understanding of positioning and control, leverage, you name it.

I think the worry at this age is he might confuse rules and get DQ'd, but I figure in the next year or two he'll be rolling, too. Kid is a damn little savant on the wrestling mat, literal natural.

This weekend is state tourney time again, hoping for a 3-peat but he just changed age groups and went up a class, so he's had a little more trouble this year than before, but still coming in as 2 seed.
Click to expand...

Also in a year or 2 he'll mature enough to separate the rulesets sir.
Any of the arts you mentioned would only serve to make him better overall.

Seems like a good kid, and I say "LETS GO" to a 3peat lol.
 
Only reason I can think of is that deep down they know how exhausting it might be for them to work for takedowns and they are scared of gassing themselves out. It's not that hard to learn how to wrestle, in mma you've got single/double leg and bodylock, push against the fence and trip, it's not rocket science.

What I don't understand is why they don't just flop to their ass, spam imanari rolls, pull guard, just go full fucking Ryan Hall, instead of getting beat up on the feet. Just flop to your ass and grab at the legs, even if you can't wrestle that's better than getting lit up. Every time I see Dern fight I always start thinking 'just flop to your fucking ass, stop striking'. She clearly doesn't mind being on bottom, like in her last fight.
 
StonedLemur said:
I think my point is, being deadly on the ground don't mean much if you can't get it there sir.
It may not be natural...striking wasn't natural to that bubble head Koscheck but he looked pretty good after awhile.
Click to expand...
I gotcha. I know my comparison seems a bit skewed but I see it as that they can't achieve one (necessarily by talent) because they achieved the other. But I damned well agree they should try!

"Only nee joojeetsu fren"
 
samuelsoncast said:
I gotcha. I know my comparison seems a bit skewed but I see it as that they can't achieve one (necessarily by talent) because they achieved the other. But I damned well agree they should try!

"Only nee joojeetsu fren"
Click to expand...

I mean they don't have have to be master wrestlers sir, just fuckin competent lol.
 
It's easier for wrestlers to pick up BJJ than the other way around. Rare exceptions being the likes of GSP.

Wrestling requires explosiveness and athleticism which is very different than the leisurely pace of BJJ. This is something that the likes of Dern and Ortega aren't cut out for.

Tbh, it's smarter for Ortega to polish up his boxing and use it to set up his submission game than trying to go the D-1 route. Not saying he shouldn't also work on his wrestling but at this stage in his career, it shouldn't be a priority.

Look at Oliveira. He's always had great submissions but he leveled up after he developed great striking to complement it.
 
StonedLemur said:
At this point why aren't these people drilling takedowns nonstop?

If an idiot like Josh Koscheck (a born wrestler) can improve on striking, then why wouldn't these BJJ cats want the most effective way to take someone into their world?

Even after working with Cejudo, Derns takedowns look like trash.
Ortega too for that matter...am I missing something here?

View attachment 1031135
Click to expand...
I wondered why about a thousand times. But never dared to actually ask someone, I assumed I just didn't see something obvious and that asking would just make me look stupid. I was wrong though because you look great right now. But I don't have your style.

No seriously, I'm not sure. Maybe it's less tedious and more fun to learn striking. I mean, if I were a fighter instead of a sherdogger, and had a JJB base I'd probably wanna fight like, say, Oliveira, whose best TD technique isn't double leg but rather single chin.
 
Like HHJ said, why don’t these BJJ folks follow the Carlson Gracie philosophy? It worked perfectly for Ricardo Arona both in ADCC & in MMA.

If a BJJ player wants to excel at MMA, that style of BJJ is tailor made for MMA.
 
Why don't all high level kickboxers have top tier TDD?

Why doesn't an elite grappler like Jake Shields have KO power?

Why didn't Kimbo Slice win by flying triangle?

Some will be able to upskill and adapt, say Werdum with his striking.

They come from a specialized background where wrestling isn't a core part and really needs a long term grounding in, much like OP with a special schooling program.
 
fortheo said:
That's why I liked Maia a lot. He realized this and started working with college and olympic wrestlers. He developed a sick single leg, and if it didn't work he would mix it in with a weird ass guard pull to go deep half sweep, or he'd just create back exposure and take your back while standing. Regardless, he was always working to get to his strong suit of grappling. I loved watching him work his takedowns




People shat on him for not being able to get elite wrestlers like woodley, usman and weidman down, but those guys aren't exactly easy to get down. Maia had good takedowns, especially for a BJJ guy.

The problem is that he just started incorporating the wrestling heavy approach too late in his development, unfortunately.
Click to expand...


That finish of Chael was just so damn slick. One of my favorite finishing sequences for sure.
 
Because sport Jiu Jitsu is all about pulling half guard and the like.

Also could be a lack of athleticism.

Realistically though it's fucking dumb to not learn takedowns.

It's like learning to strike but ignoring jabs.
 
Fedora Millionankles said:
If only it was that simple. A blast double leg takedown is a very explosive movement and many BJJ players lack those fast twitch muscle fibers. They have the squeeze of an anaconda, but the movement of a sloth.
They can be effective from the clinch like Damien Maia using trips and sweeps, but it’s quite difficult to get a takedown on someone that is expecting it.
Most elite grapplers that are successful taking people down have learned how to chain their striking into takedowns. But multitudes more have not.
Click to expand...

I've never seen Dern or Ortega try to get the fight to the ground as hard as Maia or Askren have. And neither of them have fast twitch muscle fibers.
 
StonedLemur said:
At this point why aren't these people drilling takedowns nonstop?

If an idiot like Josh Koscheck (a born wrestler) can improve on striking, then why wouldn't these BJJ cats want the most effective way to take someone into their world?

Even after working with Cejudo, Derns takedowns look like trash.
Ortega too for that matter...am I missing something here?

View attachment 1031135
Click to expand...
Train BJJ for a couple years and you'll quickly find out why.

This is coming from a practioner & coach; Jiu Jitsu guys are, in general, some of the most delusional and lazy athletes there are.
Most of the hate takedowns and refuse to take a step back in grappling to learn them.
That's why guys like Gilbert Burns& Charles Oliveira are so awesome, they actually recognized that they needed them to succeed.
 
Nathan LaMontagne said:
Because sport Jiu Jitsu is all about pulling half guard and the like.

Also could be a lack of athleticism.

Realistically though it's fucking dumb to not learn takedowns.

It's like learning to strike but ignoring jabs.
Click to expand...

Its not an athleticism thing sir, its a work thing tbh.
Im not askin for Olympic level wrestling, just competent.
 
Last edited:
Sasha said:
I wondered why about a thousand times. But never dared to actually ask someone, I assumed I just didn't see something obvious and that asking would just make me look stupid. I was wrong though because you look great right now. But I don't have your style.

No seriously, I'm not sure. Maybe it's less tedious and more fun to learn striking. I mean, if I were a fighter instead of a sherdogger, and had a JJB base I'd probably wanna fight like, say, Oliveira, whose best TD technique isn't double leg but rather single chin.
Click to expand...

Growing up wrestling and watchin some of these "pros"... especially the BJJ guys and girls is frustrating as fuck lol.

Some in here have said its laziness, some have said its ego, but even if they're right its still "a work thing".

Wrestling is not glamorous, its hard work but it pays off in the end... especially if you have a good BJJ game.
I don't know everything, but I know if Im nasty on the ground...im gonna learn the most effective way to get it there.

And striking isn't it if you're not good enough there.
Im not saying don't learn striking, im saying strengthen "your game" first.

Also, if you don't ask the questions, you'll never receive the answer.
There's no such thing as a dumb question if genuine...and you're always genuine sir.

Much love
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,238,619
Messages
55,574,971
Members
174,825
Latest member
Yace

Share this page

Back
Top