International Milei's Neoliberal "Shock Therapy" is Devastating Argentina

[Rod1]

No, Mileil is just likely to finally engage in global trade.

What? Argentina Export to GDP ratio is like 16% which is no out of the ordinary

China for example is 20%, USA is 11%.

The Peronists were isolationist in their ideology, except when it came to taking on debt.

Isolationist in what sense? they were the ones that signed Mercosur.

If Mileil agrees to more IMF money,

IMF won't lend more money to Milei without a plan.

it will be eased with the promise of access to resources in compensation, and bolstering of power for his preferred class of people. And with the social programs gutted, the working class will be in the mines with little political leverage and anti-protest measures that will put them in front of the actual Army.

Are we talking about Argentina or Venezuela?

Because all of the above is a reality in Venezuela, not Argentina, and peaceful protests have already happened under Milei.

 

[Rod1]

Engage in "global trade"?
You mean selling off Argentine's natural resources to transnational corporations, for "pennies on the dollar"?
Yes, that's the idea.

Which Argentinian natural resource is being sold at under market value?

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

"it will be different this time!!"

Hey, at least you ghouls didn't have to do a coup and install a fascist dictator to make your neoliberal wet dreams happen this time! That's an improvement I'd say!

Like we did in Ukraine, you mean?

 

[fungi]

Which Argentinian natural resource is being sold at under market value?

not "is being sold".
Will be sold. After IMF moves in full throttle.

 

[N13]

Especially when you're an idiot who claims to speak to his dead dog.

I communicate with my dead dogs.

 

[Rod1]

Well, kinda moving the goalposts. My contention was that Milei will not likely voluntarily relinquish power. You claimed there will be free and fair elections. That seems to be the root of our disagreement because I wouldn't put it past that lunatic to attempt to undermine the results of any election where he loses.

No, im not, the goalpost is the same there is a 99.99% chance that there will be "free and fair elections" in the sense that Argentinians elections are free and fair.

I don't know if Milei would go full Pedro Castillo in trying to go for an auto-coup or the road of Bolsonaro and cry fraud, what i do know is that there is no moves on his part to create the institutional framework to be able to carry such and thus Argentina won't turn into a dictatorship.

You are now saying that even if he does, he wont be allowed to unlawfully retain power. That's a little different than the suggestion that elections will go smoothly.

I said free elections, as in people will be free to go and vote andvotes going in will be counted and the guy that gets the most votes will be next president.

I sincerely hope Argentina doesnt have to go through what Brazil did to be rid of him on that scenario, though I'm sure there is a luxury Miami apartment waiting for him right beside Jairo. Lol Pueden beber cafe con leche en las mañanas.

Ni idea amigo, pero Milei no tiene el retraso mental de Bolsonaro el tipo es un buen economista.

'm not against the Government having a monopoly on violence, but that's different than a singular defense entity that answers directly to the President.

Can you link me this? i haven't heard about this.

With Milei's changes, along with the purge of the General, the Army is essentially in command of internal security. I don't find that very convincing that there is a greater element of freedom or security when combined with the anti-protest measures. It gives a more distinct "misbehave and you will be crushed" vibe.

I would need to see more of this to have an opinion, but rest assured Milei is only in power due to an alliance with the JxC party and im sure the JxC will abandon him if he goes rogue like Bolsonaro was abandoned.

 

[Rod1]

not "is being sold".
Will be sold. After IMF moves in full throttle.

Can you tell me of one country where this is true?

 

[CatchnShoot]

Maybe give it a year or two before jumping to conclusions?

I swear people are so addicted to instant gratification these days.

Can you not eat for a year?

Just give it time, bro, the Crazytrain will correct this shit.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

It's been 1/3rd of a year. Turning around a fucked economy isn't the same as ordering from Ubereats.

Let the madman cook.

 

[blackheart]

The second sentence in my post explains why "capitalist demon" is wrong. Demon is the particular word that is off-putting to normal people. Of course I know you're using it figuratively (though there have been WRers who claimed that Obama and Clinton were literal demons), but even that is wrong. Capitalism is awesome. I think your issue is conflating support for markets with a lack of safety nets, regs, and even common ownership, but they are compatible with and in some cases necessary for a market-based economy.

Your issue is conflating the very ideas of markets, trade and production with capitalism. You seem to think those three things didn't exist until capitalism. And you seem to think that socialism precludes them. Both errors that I see liberals make on a daily basis.

Neoliberal market reforms often have devastating human consequences, and neoliberal policies lead to immense human suffering. So yes - I will continue to describe them however I see fit.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Your issue is conflating the very ideas of markets, trade and production with capitalism. You seem to think those three things didn't exist until capitalism. And you seem to think that socialism precludes them. Both errors that I see liberals make on a daily basis.

I didn't say anything about socialism (and I did explicitly say that common ownership is compatible with a market economy) and a self-regulating market is the particular invention we're talking about. Production obviously existed before that, but we didn't produce nearly as much (or grow at a remotely similar rate). It actually hasn't been around that long.

Neoliberal market reforms often have devastating human consequences, and neoliberal policies lead to immense human suffering. So yes - I will continue to describe them however I see fit.

Right, but when you see fit to describe them that way and make inaccurate statements like that, people are going to form their own impressions. It's fine. I'm more interested in the facts, but if you want to know why that post got the reaction it did, I explained it.

 

[Andy Capp]

Steve Jobs was an asshole and as a web/mobile developer, I despise the monopolistic practices of Apple. But Jobs was a huge innovator in the home computing (introduced typography to home computers) and the smart phone market.

Meh, funny how easy it is to disregard the contribution of that other Steve. Remember him? Fuck Steve Jobs. I hope a honey badger is buggering his corpse as we speak.

 

[Jack V Savage]

BTW, a classic that I'd recommend on the issue of the formation of markets is Karl Polanyi's The Great Transformation. You'd like it, I think. I've seen him described as a Marxist, but from what I've read (especially TGT), the particular flavor of socialism he was more drawn to was Owen's. He describes how economies had been embedded in broader social relations, and the artificiality of the process of creating a market-based economy (and society), which inspired spontaneous reactions against it on both the right and left.

 

[Sinister]

No, im not, the goalpost is the same there is a 99.99% chance that there will be "free and fair elections" in the sense that Argentinians elections are free and fair.

I don't know if Milei would go full Pedro Castillo in trying to go for an auto-coup or the road of Bolsonaro and cry fraud, what i do know is that there is no moves on his part to create the institutional framework to be able to carry such and thus Argentina won't turn into a dictatorship.



I said free elections, as in people will be free to go and vote andvotes going in will be counted and the guy that gets the most votes will be next president.


Ni idea amigo, pero Milei no tiene el retraso mental de Bolsonaro el tipo es un buen economista.


Can you link me this? i haven't heard about this.


I would need to see more of this to have an opinion, but rest assured Milei is only in power due to an alliance with the JxC party and im sure the JxC will abandon him if he goes rogue like Bolsonaro was abandoned.

Bro 99.99%...lol Well I'm glad you have that kind of faith in the Argentinian system. Not sure I can jump on that train, though.

I don't know that Mileil is a "good economist." This remains to be seen.

100 Days of Javier Milei's government: vindicates the dictatorship and attempts to militarize domestic security policies

Javier Milei's government vindicates the criminal plan of the armed forces carried out during the 1970s. But it is not just an attempt to rewrite history and deny these crimes; it also aims to legitimize his policies in the present.

www.cels.org.ar

Argentina: Javier Milei’s government poses an urgent threat to human rights

Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets in Argentina to commemorate victims of the country’s military dictatorship amid renewed concerns for human rights.

theconversation.com

Both of those articles lay out some of the dangers of the Militarism Mileil is engaging in. Now, I dont pay too much heed to the shock value of some of the details, but rather the broader trend of appointing former Military officials to traditionally civilian positions, Military expansionism, and the encroachment of Military operations in domestic security.

 

[Chad R. Thundercock]

Meh, funny how easy it is to disregard the contribution of that other Steve. Remember him? Fuck Steve Jobs. I hope a honey badger is buggering his corpse as we speak.

The Woz. Jobs landed a job contract from Atari and had Wozniak complete the goddamn task all by himself. Then he paid him peanuts and kept the lion's share of the payment to himself.

I get it. He's a grade A twat. He was as dishonest and shitty as Thomas Edison was. But both of them are still celebrated as some of the greatest inventors in American history.

 

[fedorthegoat777]

The guy picked up a dead country and is reforming it.

I don't believe what the TS stated. Really we don't know at this point.

I talked to one international real estate investor that is buying property there because he thinks this guy is fixing things. Which will make real estate go up.

Not exactly proof on anything, but we will see.. .

 

[fedorthegoat777]

You cannot safely say anything. You can assume that, but this guy is also passing anti-protest laws to make cracking down on street level protests with heavy-hands standard procedure. I don't give a sh*t about Peronists, but it's always funny how the first thing self-proclaimed Libertarians do is embellish the power of State-sanctioned violence.

Lol, your ending statement makes a good point.

But I think this guy is going to turn the country around. He inherited a mess, but is fixing it. It will take some time and break some eggs.

I think he will do well. Safe to say wet don't know at this point.

 

[fedorthegoat777]

..

 

[Sinister]

What? Argentina Export to GDP ratio is like 16% which is no out of the ordinary

China for example is 20%, USA is 11%.


Isolationist in what sense? they were the ones that signed Mercosur.


IMF won't lend more money to Milei without a plan.


Are we talking about Argentina or Venezuela?

Because all of the above is a reality in Venezuela, not Argentina, and peaceful protests have already happened under Milei.

Eh, those exports vs GDP charts have a loose definition of "exports:"

"Exports of goods and services represent the value of all goods and other market services provided to the rest of the world. They include the value of merchandise, freight, insurance, transport, travel, royalties, license fees, and other services, such as communication, construction, financial, information, business, personal, and government services."

Isolationist in what sense? In this sense:

"The economy became inward-looking. Perón rejected open trade and looked at foreign direct investment suspiciously. Tariffs were very high and Argentina started taxing exports. It tried to industrialise and be less dependent on other countries.

Foreign direct investment was unwelcome and resulted in the underuse of Argentina’s resources. Chile and Argentina both have copper but, while Chile is the largest copper exporter in the world, Argentina severely lags. Argentina spends a large amount on price subsidies with energy subsidies alone amounting to 2% of GDP in government spending."

Peronists are hyper-Nationalists, and there have been right wing, left wing, socialist, and corporatist Personists. But the Nationalism stayed the same.

IMF won't lend, you mean this IMF?

IMF unlocks $4.7bn for Argentina amid economic crisis, Milei austerity cuts

Inflation has crossed 160 percent in Latin America’s third-biggest economy, 40 percent of population living in poverty.

www.google.com

Interesting that the IMF feels perfectly comfortable that Meliel has a suitable plan...3 months ago.

There have been some peaceful protests, others not so much:

Photos: Argentina police battle protesters opposed to sweeping reform bill

Police fire rubber bullets and water cannons at demonstrators outside the Congress building in Buenos Aires.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[fungi]

@Rod1, you're defending the IMF so staunchly...
Do you work for them, or something?