Why did you choose the guard you currently use?

ChickenBrother said:
I think we're saying the same thing. In my previous post I said almost all top MMA fighters came up in a base style that they are better at than most people. If that's what you mean by "specialist," then yes that's indisputable.

I was talking about having literally no training or understanding of a certain area that would be expected to occur in a given ruleset, and that I think is very rare if not non-existent. There is no top MMA fighter today that does not train some form of grappling (including guard work), some form of striking AND some manner of gnp etc. Even if they're a blue belt in BJJ but a black belt with these hands, they still train and have a rudimentary understanding of guardwork, sweeps and subs. And if that were not worthwhile or necessary, we'd still be seeing style vs. style match-ups with no cross-training, a la UFC 1.
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If you can manage to get a blackblet without any bottom game to speak of, would you say you are not a martial martial artist?
 
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thugpoet said:
If you can manage to get a blanket without any bottom game to speak of, would you say you are not a martial martial artist?
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If that's all you know how to do, with no ability or desire to learn anything else, then IMO no you are not a martial artist. I think you said earlier that a MA should be able to adapt and win under any ruleset, which I agree with. Someone with that specific, limited skillset would be unable to win a striking match that forbids grappling. Even under a grappling ruleset, that person would be uncompetitive vs. a bigger, stronger but equally skilled opponent.

It's possible such a person could win a street fight with that skillset, if that's what you mean. It's also possible a pure boxer could. But that's like saying James Toney is an MMA fighter.

40 years ago it was understandable if a good boxer, or wrestler or full-contact karate guy believed he was already training the most effective techniques for real fighting. These days, faced with so much evidence to the contrary under mixed rulesets like MMA (and the wide availability of schools and online content), anyone who chooses not to cross-train outside their main style is making a clear choice to be a specific combat sport athlete, not a martial artist.

If I had to fight someone on the street and I couldn't walk away, say I had to defend my wife or kids, and I didn't have a gun, knife or improvised weapon handy (iow I fucked up badly), my A game would be boxing strikes into wrestling or Judo TD into side control followed by kimura, or mount into sleeve ezekiel choke. But if a 260 lbs neanderthal sucker punches me in the back of the head, knocking me down in a parking lot when I'm with my family and won't back down, I don't have the option of saying "sorry dawg, you're too big and strong for me and I have no guard game. Can you go sucker punch someone else your own size?"
 
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ChickenBrother said:
If that's all you know how to do, with no ability or desire to learn anything else, then IMO no you are not a martial artist. I think you said earlier that a MA should be able to adapt and win under any ruleset, which I agree with. Someone with that specific, limited skillset would be unable to win a striking match that forbids grappling. Even under a grappling ruleset, that person would be uncompetitive vs. a bigger, stronger but equally skilled opponent.

It's possible such a person could win a street fight with that skillset, if that's what you mean. It's also possible a pure boxer could. But that's like saying James Toney is an MMA fighter.

40 years ago it was understandable if a good boxer, or wrestler or full-contact karate guy believed he was already training the most effective techniques for real fighting. These days, faced with so much evidence to the contrary under mixed rulesets like MMA (and the wide availability of schools and online content), anyone who chooses not to cross-train outside their main style is making a clear choice to be a specific combat sport athlete, not a martial artist.

If I had to fight someone on the street and I couldn't walk away, say I had to defend my wife or kids, and I didn't have a gun, knife or improvised weapon handy (iow I fucked up badly), my A game would be boxing strikes into wrestling or Judo TD into side control followed by kimura, or mount into sleeve ezekiel choke. But if a 260 lbs neanderthal sucker punches me in the back of the head, knocking me down in a parking lot when I'm with my family and won't back down, I don't have the option of saying "sorry dawg, you're too big and strong for me and I have no guard game. Can you go sucker punch someone else your own size?"
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No

Boxing is martial art, but it restrictions you to only your hands.

Greco is a martial art yet it restrictions you to upper body throws.

How you train to fight has to do with your coaches, and the rules that restrict you ( no leg locks for example) it doesn't make you any less of a martial artist by having a very specific skillset.

If you have a style that hinders you from winning against stronger people then you have an inferior style. So yes you will need to change your methodology to be successful however it doesn't mean your not a martial artist.
 
thugpoet said:
No

Boxing is martial art, but it restrictions you to only your hands.

Greco is a martial art yet it restrictions you to upper body throws.

How you train to fight has to do with your coaches, and the rules that restrict you ( no leg locks for example) it doesn't make you any less of a martial artist by having a very specific skillset.

If you have a style that hinders you from winning against stronger people then you have an inferior style. So yes you will need to change your methodology to be successful however it doesn't mean your not a martial artist.
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Then agree to disagree. Boxing and Greco are combat sports with specific rules. They both originated from martial arts but the way each is trained and contested today is not a martial art.

A martial artist acknowledges the limitations of their game and base style, and strives for constant improvement. I have nothing but respect for the Aikido and TMA guys that spent years under their style, then abandoned it for BJJ or MMA when they were shown how ineffective their game was under mixed rules. It takes serious "check your ego at the door" and openness to improvement to do that, and those guys are real martial artists.

Similarly, for most combat sports with weight classes, if I prioritized that, I'd have no interest or incentive to ever learn to deal with opponents much bigger than me. I deal with that every BJJ class and it's shown me there are some folks I simply can't take down or start from top position with. I could be stubborn about it and say, it's not my base styles. Wrestling and Judo are perfect martial arts. If I get good enough at TD's, I should be able to beat anyone. Or I could check my ego at the door and admit that my guard retention and recomposes need improvement to be competitive with certain opponents.
 
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ChickenBrother said:
Then agree to disagree. Boxing and Greco are combat sports with specific rules. They both originated from martial arts but the way each is trained and competed in today is not a martial art.

A martial artist acknowledges the limitations of their game and base style, and strives for constant improvement. I have nothing but respect for the Aikido and TMA guys that spent years under their style, then abandoned it for BJJ or MMA when they were shown how ineffective their game was under mixed rules. It takes serious "check your ego at the door" and openness to improvement to do that, and those guys are real martial artists.

Similarly, for most combat sports with weight classes, if I prioritized that, I'd have no interest or incentive to ever learn to deal with opponents much bigger than me. I deal with that every BJJ class and it's shown me there are some folks I simply can't take down or start from top position with. I could be stubborn about it and say, it's not my base styles. Wrestling and Judo are perfect martial arts. If I get good enough at TD's, I should be able to beat anyone. Or I could check my ego at the door and admit that my guard retention and recomposes need improvement to be competitive with certain opponents.
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I think you have a close d minded view of what a martial artist is.

Art is an expression. And there's no more primal expression then the art of fighting. How one chooses to fight whether it's restricted by rules of the sport or by your coach. Fighting is fighting how you fight is what makes it an expression of your personal art. Developing a personal style within a given art is the ultimate goal, the ultimate art.
 
thugpoet said:
I think you have a close d minded view of what a martial artist is.

Art is an expression. And there's no more primal expression then the art of fighting. How one chooses to fight whether it's restricted by rules of the sport or by your coach. Fighting is fighting how you fight is what makes it an expression of your personal art. Developing a personal style within a given art is the ultimate goal, the ultimate art.
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Agreed and that also implies there's no "one size fits all" in terms of proper technique. Everyone has varying levels of size, strength, flexibility etc. as well as individual preferences. I'm a 170 lbs athletic guy who trains at an MMA gym and knows exactly how I measure up in pure boxing, wrestling, BJJ, TDs and off my back relative to pro fighters. In my case, guard work is by far the biggest hole in my game and I'm working to correct that. I'm not saying everyone should do as I do but I think it would take a very special athlete for it not to be worthwhile learning at a minimum, rudimentary guardwork.
 
I've always been most comfortable in knee shield half guard or z-guard, whatever you want to call it. If I can't sweep from there I'll often use it to off-balance to the side of the half guard which allows me a pretty easy entry into SLX, which I can use to go to 50/50 or X. Lately I've been playing around a lot with Wardzinski style butterfly guard and some lasso guard, but I think I'll always be most comfortable from knee shield half.
 
ChickenBrother said:
Agreed and that also implies there's no "one size fits all" in terms of proper technique. Everyone has varying levels of size, strength, flexibility etc. as well as individual preferences. I'm a 170 lbs athletic guy who trains at an MMA gym and knows exactly how I measure up in pure boxing, wrestling, BJJ, TDs and off my back relative to pro fighters. In my case, guard work is by far the biggest hole in my game and I'm working to correct that. I'm not saying everyone should do as I do but I think it would take a very special athlete for it not to be worthwhile learning at a minimum, rudimentary guardwork.
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Most catch wrestlers back in the day had very little guard work because of their ruleset. But overall we agree
 
Ryoto Machida said:
I've always been most comfortable in knee shield half guard or z-guard, whatever you want to call it. If I can't sweep from there I'll often use it to off-balance to the side of the half guard which allows me a pretty easy entry into SLX, which I can use to go to 50/50 or X. Lately I've been playing around a lot with Wardzinski style butterfly guard and some lasso guard, but I think I'll always be most comfortable from knee shield half.
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How are going from
Ryoto Machida said:
I've always been most comfortable in knee shield half guard or z-guard, whatever you want to call it. If I can't sweep from there I'll often use it to off-balance to the side of the half guard which allows me a pretty easy entry into SLX, which I can use to go to 50/50 or X. Lately I've been playing around a lot with Wardzinski style butterfly guard and some lasso guard, but I think I'll always be most comfortable from knee shield half.
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Does the transition from single leg x to 50/50 seem dangerous to you? A friend of mine is always worried about the transition. Doesn't seem to risky to me
 
thugpoet said:
How are going from

Does the transition from single leg x to 50/50 seem dangerous to you? A friend of mine is always worried about the transition. Doesn't seem to risky to me
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When I sweep from half guard to SLX, just by the nature of the sweep my opponent is usually down on the opposite knee, which makes transitioning to 50/50 pretty straight forward.
 
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