200 kg bench press - clean or juicing?

[Ultra O’Dia]

I think the issue there is that bench wasnt popularized before the 20th century, so it's not exactly a fair comparison. Increasing the pool by millions and refining techniques will make any record, especially in a new lift, go up.

With that said, I agree. A 200kg/441lbs bench is not something most people will ever achieve, no matter how hard they train. Especially clean and not being 250+ lbs

for sure. i agree with the lack of contestants.
However, to call Hepburn a “not even strong” bencher is nutso

 

[DoomPatrol]

Just for perspective, in USAPL RAW open nationals 2019, outside of 1st place, who admittedly benched 242kg, everyone else benched around 190-205kg in the 120kg class. https://www.openpowerlifting.org/m/usapl/NS-2019-05/by-division

What are you looking at, because the men's 231lb raw seems to show the top 5 benching between 700lbs and 550lbs?

I'm not sure what all of the differences are between the different MRs, but it looks like the junior class is well above what you're saying.

 

[ASUThermo]

Wait, you benched 200kg, at sub 110kg BW? Isn't that what the ranked total IPF guys are benching in the 105kg class, or am I mistaken?

Yeah, our goal is to hit 207.5+ at my scheduled meet in July, if it happens and they don't force lifters to wear a mask. I will not be cutting to 105 so that will be in the 120 class. Here is the mock meet I did in April.

 

[ASUThermo]

Just for perspective, in USAPL RAW open nationals 2019, outside of 1st place, who admittedly benched 242kg, everyone else benched around 190-205kg in the 120kg class. https://www.openpowerlifting.org/m/usapl/NS-2019-05/by-division

Jake Amendola hit 263 at 105 that Saturday, easily the best USAPL bencher across those classes.

 

[ASUThermo]

Anyone have additional perspective on this.

I don't think I mentioned but, the dude is, 53 yrs old?

I mean, them old school lifters, would it be totally unheard of to bench 200 kgs at 53 with 120 kgs BW but plenty of BF also?

That's a good bench for 53, regardless of what his circumstances are. Not saying he is clean, but there were 53 registered benchers in 2019 in the M2 (50-59) 120 class for the USAPL, and only 1 guy hit a 200+ bench. He did it in bench only and he is a total bench scpecialist, in Raw and Equipped. So your guy is doing some good work for sure.

 

[ASUThermo]

What are you looking at, because the men's 231lb raw seems to show the top 5 benching between 700lbs and 550lbs?

I'm not sure what all of the differences are between the different MRs, but it looks like the junior class is well above what you're saying.

Incorrect. The top 5 benches in the 105 class at Raw Nats last year were the following.

Jake Amendola - 263, RPE sub 9
Justin Rogers - 227.5
Bryce Lewis - 220, narrowly missing a 230 attempt after reaching for total placement kgs.
Vincent Victorero & Keenan Lee - 210
Mike Davis - 207.5

The best Masters 1 bench was 195, and Ashton Rouska and Cole Warren were the only Juniors to hit 200+ at 205 and 202.5.

Not sure where you are getting the 550 from, nobody hit a 250 bench that day.

 

[Sano]

Yeah, our goal is to hit 207.5+ at my scheduled meet in July, if it happens and they don't force lifters to wear a mask. I will not be cutting to 105 so that will be in the 120 class. Here is the mock meet I did in April.

That's crazy dude, well done.

200kg bench at sub 110kg BW as a lifetime natural just seems, well, almost impossible outside of a small amount of people, who dedicated their life to it, and, had advantages morphology (height, reach, leverages). Oh, forgot about cutting weight, but that's another caveat that's not as relevant.

Even with drugs it's extremely impressive. I'll trust you when you say that you are natural, and I'm not being facetious. But overall, I'm really skeptical of anyone claiming that people in powerlifting, at the highest level in the world, aren't cycling or are lifetime naturals even if they compete in drug-tested divisions. Would you mind illuminating that for me a little bit? What's your thoughts as someone who competes? Help me out here.

 

[DoomPatrol]

Incorrect. The top 5 benches in the 105 class at Raw Nats last year were the following.

Jake Amendola - 263, RPE sub 9
Justin Rogers - 227.5
Bryce Lewis - 220, narrowly missing a 230 attempt after reaching for total placement kgs.
Vincent Victorero & Keenan Lee - 210
Mike Davis - 207.5

The best Masters 1 bench was 195, and Ashton Rouska and Cole Warren were the only Juniors to hit 200+ at 205 and 202.5.

Not sure where you are getting the 550 from, nobody hit a 250 bench that day.

I see my error. Disregard. I was reading the list wrong on mobile.

 

[ASUThermo]

That's crazy dude, well done.

200kg bench at sub 110kg BW as a lifetime natural just seems, well, almost impossible outside of a small amount of people, who dedicated their life to it, and, had advantages morphology (height, reach, leverages). Oh, forgot about cutting weight, but that's another caveat that's not as relevant.

Even with drugs it's extremely impressive. I'll trust you when you say that you are natural, and I'm not being facetious. But overall, I'm really skeptical of anyone claiming that people in powerlifting, at the highest level in the world, aren't cycling or are lifetime naturals even if they compete in drug-tested divisions. Would you mind illuminating that for me a little bit? What's your thoughts as someone who competes? Help me out here.

I think that an overlooked factor, when people participate in competitive hobbies, is work and home stress. I would rank both of those as a 1/10, very lucky to be able to goof around in my garage or work gym for upwards of 10 hours a week.

The extent of any aids for lifting for me are OTC NSAIDS, Meloxicam, which was for my shoulder in 2015-2016, and within the past 5 months I started to take 5+mg creatine every day. My preworkouts are Gold Standard preworkout and Ignite from Denova, I use those because they are supposed to be banned substance free. I am not against using peds or anything, it just has never really appealed to me. Powerlifting is rare where you have the options of tested and untested, so I think that people should stick to their sides of the line. I think trying to compete with the untested guys while cycling is pretty lame, but I guess I understand the mentality of "well everyone else is doing it...". I would get fulfillment or would enjoy lifting in the USAPL if I tried to "beat the system", it's a hobby nothing more, nothing less. If the time comes that I want to seek out enhancement I will not be lifting in a tested federation, if I still want to do powerlifting at the time I make that choice.

I would be naive if I said that all USAPL lifters are natural, they do not test frequently enough to call it "drug free" with any sort of confidence. I have only been tested once in 7 USAPL meets. I know a few lifters that have participated in 10+ meets without being tested, some of them have more competitive totals/IPF scores than me and 2 have competed at Nationals. I am certain that plenty of guy beat the underwhelming system, and that's not exclusive to the top guys, there have been plenty of failures from lifters with sub 400 wilks scores. At the end of the day, like with all tested sports, all the competitors have to do is be clean enough to pass the tests.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

You french Canadian fuck.

Hey fuck you.

 

[Sano]

I think that an overlooked factor, when people participate in competitive hobbies, is work and home stress. I would rank both of those as a 1/10, very lucky to be able to goof around in my garage or work gym for upwards of 10 hours a week.

The extent of any aids for lifting for me are OTC NSAIDS, Meloxicam, which was for my shoulder in 2015-2016, and within the past 5 months I started to take 5+mg creatine every day. My preworkouts are Gold Standard preworkout and Ignite from Denova, I use those because they are supposed to be banned substance free. I am not against using peds or anything, it just has never really appealed to me. Powerlifting is rare where you have the options of tested and untested, so I think that people should stick to their sides of the line. I think trying to compete with the untested guys while cycling is pretty lame, but I guess I understand the mentality of "well everyone else is doing it...". I would get fulfillment or would enjoy lifting in the USAPL if I tried to "beat the system", it's a hobby nothing more, nothing less. If the time comes that I want to seek out enhancement I will not be lifting in a tested federation, if I still want to do powerlifting at the time I make that choice.

I would be naive if I said that all USAPL lifters are natural, they do not test frequently enough to call it "drug free" with any sort of confidence. I have only been tested once in 7 USAPL meets. I know a few lifters that have participated in 10+ meets without being tested, some of them have more competitive totals/IPF scores than me and 2 have competed at Nationals. I am certain that plenty of guy beat the underwhelming system, and that's not exclusive to the top guys, there have been plenty of failures from lifters with sub 400 wilks scores. At the end of the day, like with all tested sports, all the competitors have to do is be clean enough to pass the tests.

Thanks for the insight man, it's appreciated.

I think part of the reason I'm suspicious is partly based on my own biases. I'm simply not entranched in the community so I don't know what people are doing, or not doing, and honestly I think some of it stems from being envious/jelly. Obviously not all of it, I like to think that I apply logic to my critical thinking, but after doing some reflection, I can't deny that some of it isn't. I also think another important point that contextualizes the "debate" is who you're comparing someone to, as in, general population or outliers/high level strength athletes. I think that perspective can sometimes can scewed, on both sides. To me, it's sort of like asking, which percentange of adult males would be able to run a sub 2:25 marathon, or a sub 15 minutes 5K, even with years of dedication and training? Probably a very, very small one. Yet those times wouldn't place you on the top 10 nationally last year.

Anyway, your dedication deserves respect.

 

[EatMyShorts]

What I'm getting out of this so far is that the probability is heavily weighted toward this guy juicing.

Listen - I can't help it.

I hate the fucking guy.

It's got the worst alpha daddy complex and swags about like he's a fuckin' Don.

The vast majority of the time I see him train he's getting a pump on lighter weights.

Then sometimes he goes heavy and puts up insane weights like that 200 kg bench.
He's old school type from the country and apparently occasionally you just get that freakish inexplicable strength.

He also has a son who's strong but not stacked, yet was 105 kgs of solid muscle a few years ago, thun shrunk back down.

I myself have had weight fluctuation but I know what that's based on and it's not gear. So what to attribuate that to in this dudes case.....

Point I'm making is, I believe this guy is so absorbed with with alpha complex (and quite frankly, so fucking insecure), that he uses gear, vehemently denies to everyone he uses gear, puts up insane weights and tells everyone it's natural.


The last thing on my mind is, the Charles Bronson complex.
He wasn't on gear but was in that fraction percentile category that was just insanely strong.

.....

 

[dissectingaorticaneurysm]

What I'm getting out of this so far is that the probability is heavily weighted toward this guy juicing.

Listen - I can't help it.

I hate the fucking guy.

It's got the worst alpha daddy complex and swags about like he's a fuckin' Don.

The vast majority of the time I see him train he's getting a pump on lighter weights.

Then sometimes he goes heavy and puts up insane weights like that 200 kg bench.
He's old school type from the country and apparently occasionally you just get that freakish inexplicable strength.

He also has a son who's strong but not stacked, yet was 105 kgs of solid muscle a few years ago, thun shrunk back down.

I myself have had weight fluctuation but I know what that's based on and it's not gear. So what to attribuate that to in this dudes case.....

Point I'm making is, I believe this guy is so absorbed with with alpha complex (and quite frankly, so fucking insecure), that he uses gear, vehemently denies to everyone he uses gear, puts up insane weights and tells everyone it's natural.


The last thing on my mind is, the Charles Bronson complex.
He wasn't on gear but was in that fraction percentile category that was just insanely strong.

.....

All these elaborate justifications to hate a stranger who probably doesn't even know who you are. Mind your own business and see a shrink.

 

[ASUThermo]

Thanks for the insight man, it's appreciated.

I think part of the reason I'm suspicious is partly based on my own biases. I'm simply not entranched in the community so I don't know what people are doing, or not doing, and honestly I think some of it stems from being envious/jelly. Obviously not all of it, I like to think that I apply logic to my critical thinking, but after doing some reflection, I can't deny that some of it isn't. I also think another important point that contextualizes the "debate" is who you're comparing someone to, as in, general population or outliers/high level strength athletes. I think that perspective can sometimes can scewed, on both sides. To me, it's sort of like asking, which percentange of adult males would be able to run a sub 2:25 marathon, or a sub 15 minutes 5K, even with years of dedication and training? Probably a very, very small one. Yet those times wouldn't place you on the top 10 nationally last year.

Anyway, your dedication deserves respect.

Maybe up to 2016 I thought "just about every one of these guys are clean". Then a few conversations and experiences changed that. They're taking advantage of flaws in the current USAPL/IPF structure, it happens all of the time in every possible situation in life. There were guys using in USAWL, some that sucked, some that were at a national level. I looked at that differently because they didn't have another federation to participate in.

Everyone is different, I think finding the right sport or hobby to fit your strong suits goes a long way to getting the most out of it and staying consistent.

 

[ASUThermo]

What I'm getting out of this so far is that the probability is heavily weighted toward this guy juicing.

Listen - I can't help it.

I hate the fucking guy.

It's got the worst alpha daddy complex and swags about like he's a fuckin' Don.

The vast majority of the time I see him train he's getting a pump on lighter weights.

Then sometimes he goes heavy and puts up insane weights like that 200 kg bench.
He's old school type from the country and apparently occasionally you just get that freakish inexplicable strength.

He also has a son who's strong but not stacked, yet was 105 kgs of solid muscle a few years ago, thun shrunk back down.

I myself have had weight fluctuation but I know what that's based on and it's not gear. So what to attribuate that to in this dudes case.....

Point I'm making is, I believe this guy is so absorbed with with alpha complex (and quite frankly, so fucking insecure), that he uses gear, vehemently denies to everyone he uses gear, puts up insane weights and tells everyone it's natural.


The last thing on my mind is, the Charles Bronson complex.
He wasn't on gear but was in that fraction percentile category that was just insanely strong.

.....

Maybe you can convince him to let you administer an on the spot drug test next time you're around. Let's settle this once and for all. I'm routing for you man, I want him to piss Jeff Bigham hot.

 

[belph]

I learned something in this thread, If I hate someone they're on the juice.

Hey fuck you.

 

[DEVILsSON]

Who cares. This guy should be paying you rent for being on your mind this much.

The hardest thing I ever took was creatine and I have done 188.2@100 paused with no spotter and 192.7 touch and go (with spotter and unrack many years prior to 188). My leverages are far from perfect for bench at 5'11-6'0 and long arms. All my lifts are gym lifts so take it for whatever that's worth. Yes it's more than possible to do 200kg at even 100 or below while all natural. My money would be on short stocky guys(5'4-5'8). This guy fits the bill.

 

[cabal]

I know this dude who swears he's clean, but he can put up 200 kgs on the bench and other heavy weights.

I mean, even with juice that's strong.
I know guys using and can't lift that, so obviously he has a natural strength in one sense but, I've heard some say he does juice, and others say he's clean.

He's about 120 kgs body weight so, big unit but, I mean he basically has what seems like superhuman strength.

Forget what may or may not be, my question is primarily, would benching 200 kgs for a 120 kgs dude (not ripped, significant body fat), be unusual, or considered strong but not unheard of?

He is very strong but not a freak, I did know guys that weight around 100 kg and benched 180-200 , they are very thick and massive without juice. Some people are just naturally big and strong.

 

[EatMyShorts]

All these elaborate justifications to hate a stranger who probably doesn't even know who you are. Mind your own business and see a shrink.

lol - the fuck he doesn't know who I am.
What creeps me out most about the fuck is he makes every excuse to "chat" to me every chance he gets.

If he just did his fucking training and fucked off that would be swell.
But he needs acknowledgement every time you pass him in the fucking street or its like a personal insult - ya'll know the type of meat head, I'm sure.

Maybe ya'll are right, he is clean and he's naturally huge and strong without gear which I know to be true cause it runs in his (inbred) family.

I've considered fucking his daughter (and yes she does want muh dick) but I honestly don't think she's on my level, and it might do more harm than good in that, I'd be more afraid that instead of pissing the fuckface off and making fuck off, he'd begin to think of me as part of the family.

If his daughter was hot enough I'd probably smash, but she's just on the edge and that trailer trash personality - AW LAWD!!

 

[boingyman]

Anyone have additional perspective on this.

I don't think I mentioned but, the dude is, 53 yrs old?

I mean, them old school lifters, would it be totally unheard of to bench 200 kgs at 53 with 120 kgs BW but plenty of BF also?

A friend of mine, who is obviously not the norm, even for powerlifting standards, benched 200kg/441lbs @ 79.5kg bodyweight at 51 years old in a USAPL meet. This is with two shot shoulders and already passed his prime after competing for nearly 20 years at a high level. I've seen his toy with 435 @ 165 lbs for a double in training and he was already in his mid 40s by then. He would only bench once a week at the time due to his bad shoulders. His technique was pretty old school. He barely arched with elbows flared out the entire time, although he did bench at max width grip. He competed single ply 90% of his career, but he's benched in the upper 400s raw at 165 at his absolute prime. He was the kingpin IPF bencher at 75kg until Daiki Kodama came to the scene and blew everyone out of the water.