Best Karate Ruleset Transition to MMA

[Azam]

I only know of 2: Adam and Khusein Khaliev

Kato Hisaki , Arsen Abdulkerimov - off the top of my head.

I'll PM you a list later when i get some free time.

If you go through the daido juku kudo results from tournaments (world tournaments and maybe russian nationals) - you'll find most of the top 3 medalists in each category have some pro mma experience (whether good or bad).

 

[Azam]

Sounds to me like you agree with what I said above, GSP was better than them at adapting to MMA and making his style more complete with heavy cross training.

It's hard to compare GSP to Horiguchi and other prospects - as their careers are still ongoing.

At the moment GSP is one of the best to ever do it imo. But I don't think he's the best representative of karate as his wrestling and boxing is what really helped him dominate.

Machida has fought the best in the middleweight and light heavyweight divisions - and he has a better resume/competition sheet than GSP imo.

Had Machida more success at middleweight - I'd have put him over GSP even if he never became champ.

 

[Hotora86]

He went 10-10 after his clean sweep to becoming a champ.

Well no wonder when he had to face nothing but elite opposition after that. Rua, Page, Jones, Davis, Weidman, Rockhold, Romero, Moose - there is NO shame in loosing to these guys, while he was only getting older and slower. His speed advantage was a greater factor at LHW too so MW was definitely a bigger challenge. I'm a huge Machida fan of course but there's levels to this game and everyone declines eventually.

 

[Tayski]

Well no wonder when he had to face nothing but elite opposition after that. Rua, Page, Jones, Davis, Weidman, Rockhold, Romero, Moose - there is NO shame in loosing to these guys, while he was only getting older and slower. His speed advantage was a greater factor at LHW too so MW was definitely a bigger challenge. I'm a huge Machida fan of course but there's levels to this game and everyone declines eventually.

As I said, he also never adapted and always brought the same to every fight. People started building strategies around his style whereas on his way to the belt people were still caught by surprise.

 

[Hotora86]

As I said, he also never adapted and always brought the same to every fight. People started building strategies around his style whereas on his way to the belt people were still caught by surprise.

OK, that sounds much more reasonable than your previous "his style got exposed". Still, I think it's a bit of a stretch since he beat quite a few great fighters after losing the belt - Randy, Bader, Hendo, Moose. If the style itself was "exposed" it would be easy for these guys to capitalize and win. I will admit tho (which I did already) that Machida "got stale" and failed to diversify his game - like many aging fighters.

Maybe we're actually in agreement, just phrasing things differently.

 

[Azam]

OK, that sounds much more reasonable than your previous "his style got exposed". Still, I think it's a bit of a stretch since he beat quite a few great fighters after losing the belt - Randy, Bader, Hendo, Moose. If the style itself was "exposed" it would be easy for these guys to capitalize and win. I will admit tho (which I did already) that Machida "got stale" and failed to diversify his game - like many aging fighters.

Maybe we're actually in agreement, just phrasing things differently.

To be fair to Machida also - his only losses at light heavyweight apart from Shogun were Jones, Rampage & Phil Davis.

The Rampage and Phil Davis fights were controversial as everyone had Machida winning both fights on the scorecard. I think rampage even admitted after he was baffled how he got the decision.

I know he lost both fights but I feel its fair to point out that he was robbed on both occasions. He lost to Jones - and there's no shame in that.

At middleweight he was old and no longer had the speed advantage. Add that with the fact that he made zero attempts at improving his game and like @Tayski said everyone cotton'd on to the fact that he was only an effective counter striker.

Easy to figure out if you keep fighting the same way each time - just beat him to the punch. Easy to do when your slower/older and not as athletically gifted as your competition.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

That's because just like many people you think of Karate as that bouncy in and out movement typical of the traditional styles of Karate, which is a lot more distinctive to the casual eye than Kyokushin which can come across as some form of Kickboxing. The thing is Machida's style got exposed and after that he was losing as much as he was winning, he never managed to adapt and improve his style.

You know full well that I know the difference between the two + all the ins and outs

Machida's issue was more his age, dropping down to a more competitive middle weight division and not being as physically athletic as some of the guys he was facing.

There is also maybe PEDs involved too...who knows.

I don't think he got exposed though since he was still winning fights - just couldn't beat the top tier at middleweight.

Correct, he was never really exposed, he just always fought a risky style with judges, he could have been Bellator Champion at age 106 had a different panel been there that night.

Either way though GSP's success was because of his excellent wrestling and timing more so than his kickboxing skills, although he was good enough there to jab up the wrestlers he fought in that division

 

[destroyer4147]

I'd also say that there are significantly more successful point fighters in MMA. In kickboxing or MT it's the other way round.

Like @AndyMaBobs said the distance transfers better for point fighters and I think thats a huge reason why - on top of the familiarity many have when it comes to punching someone in the face or avoid being punched in the face.

So statistically:
- Knockdown translates better than Pointfighting in Oriental Rules Kickboxing/Muay Thai
- Pointfighting translates better than Knockdown in MMA

The main difference between KB/MT and MMA is obviously the ground game. Is it then safe to assume the presence of the ground game is the key factor in giving Pointfighting the edge over Knockdown in MMA?

Why does Pointfighting translate better than Knockdown into MMA, but not better than Knockdown into KB/MT? Why does the distance transfer advantage that Pointfighting enjoys over Knockdown in MMA not appear as evident for Pointfighting in KB/MT? In MMA as well as KB/MT, shouldn't the fighting distance similarty to pointfighting favor the Pointfighter over the Knockdown fighter in both cases?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

So statistically:
- Knockdown translates better than Pointfighting in Oriental Rules Kickboxing/Muay Thai
- Pointfighting translates better than Knockdown in MMA

The main difference between KB/MT and MMA is obviously the ground game. Is it then safe to assume the presence of the ground game is the key factor in giving Pointfighting the edge over Knockdown in MMA?

Why does Pointfighting translate better than Knockdown into MMA, but not better than Knockdown into KB/MT? Why does the distance transfer advantage that Pointfighting enjoys over Knockdown in MMA not appear as evident for Pointfighting in KB/MT? In MMA as well as KB/MT, shouldn't the fighting distance similarty to pointfighting favor the Pointfighter over the Knockdown fighter in both cases?

Point fighters in kickboxing have to worry about the ring, and getting trapped in a corner, so for example look at Raymond Daniels vs Joe Valtellini/Nieky Holzken. He doesn't have the space to move, an MMA cage is usually going to be a bigger space, no corners to get trapped in, and it's fought at a longer distance anyway.

Knockdown karate translates better to kickboxing because it doesn't rely on that in-out movement, and also because low kicks are a big part of competition, they historically didn't have to adjust to the leg kicks (they had to adjust to face punches instead). Compare that to Rick Roufus who was from a PKA ruleset, where leg kicks weren't allowed and he had a lot of trouble with them even after he adapted his style.

Point karate normally does allow for leg kicks, which leaves you ill prepared for a fight in a small ring with someone who's used to throwing them. MMA on the other hand leg kicks DO work when used against that type of fighter (Machida/Rua is the famous example) but the amount of fighters who dedicate themselves to kicking the leg are rarer. You might actually get through your whole career in MMA and only have fought one or two low kickers, but in kickboxing, everyone is good enough at it to give you a hard time

 

[Inquisitus]

So statistically:
- Knockdown translates better than Pointfighting in Oriental Rules Kickboxing/Muay Thai
- Pointfighting translates better than Knockdown in MMA

The main difference between KB/MT and MMA is obviously the ground game. Is it then safe to assume the presence of the ground game is the key factor in giving Pointfighting the edge over Knockdown in MMA?

Why does Pointfighting translate better than Knockdown into MMA, but not better than Knockdown into KB/MT? Why does the distance transfer advantage that Pointfighting enjoys over Knockdown in MMA not appear as evident for Pointfighting in KB/MT? In MMA as well as KB/MT, shouldn't the fighting distance similarty to pointfighting favor the Pointfighter over the Knockdown fighter in both cases?

Avoiding grappling/takedown in MMA forces the longer striking distance. It's also why leg kicks would be harder to perfect in MMA.

In MT, the grappling doesn't end up with you permanently at the bottom, it's usually above the waist. Very little to no grappling in KB. In both cases low penalty from standing close and you always get a chance to get back to preferred range even if swept.

 

[Tayski]

You know full well that I know the difference between the two + all the ins and outs

Well it's just that a lot of people say GSP doesn't use Kyokushin in his MMA fights, but as someone who has spent several years in Kyokushin I can clearly see that the way he throws his kicks (round houses, spinning kicks, etc.) + a few other techniques are very Kyokushin like. Of course this may not be the biggest part of his game but it's there none the less. He said himself that he owes a lot to Kyokushin for his MMA career, especially mental toughness, determination and body conditioning.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I actually think GSP's wins are more impressive than Machida's tbh. I feel like Horiguchi if he was in the UFC could be the flyweight or bantamweight champ - had he stayed.

His only loss was to Mighty Mouse in the UFC - but he was young at the time. I genuinely think he'd have been champ or right up there with the best had he stayed.

But I do think there is a litany of successful point fighters in MMA than there are for Kyokushin.

Like I remember the days of Marius Zaromskis....

Meanwhile for successful kyokushin fighters you have to go back to Bas Rutten or further back.

I mean I've been checking the MMA scene in Japan and there are a lot of great point fighting karate prospects that will probably be big names in future.

Marius Zaromskis. Completely forgot about him. Was a huge fan but then he got wrecked by Nick Diaz, right? Or am I saying shit?

 

[Hotora86]

Marius Zaromskis. Completely forgot about him. Was a huge fan but then he got wrecked by Nick Diaz, right? Or am I saying shit?

Got wrecked by Che Mills before that. He won his last fight against a very promising FEN champ champ Andrzej Grzebyk tho.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

BTW, I think that the GOAT martial art is kudo. All strikes allowed including headbuts and elbows and knees, use of the gi (personal preference for jacketed wrestling styles), and in comparaison to combat sambo, it places a heavier focus on striking.

Unfortunately, both kudo and sambo are rarer than pope shit outside of Eastern Yurrp/Japan in the case of kudo.

Believe it or not, even in Berlin, the most " eastern european big city in western Europe ", there is like one sambo club and it looks like low level judo. And I am not aware of a single significant shidokan / ashihara / kudo club in the 3 biggest German cities.

There is MMA of course, but generally speaking in Germany MMA means BJJ + basic K1 style standing. Do not want.

 

[Hotora86]

BTW, I think that the GOAT martial art is kudo. All strikes allowed including headbuts and elbows and knees, use of the gi (personal preference for jacketed wrestling styles), and in comparaison to combat sambo, it places a heavier focus on striking.

Unfortunately, both kudo and sambo are rarer than pope shit outside of Eastern Yurrp/Japan in the case of kudo.

Believe it or not, even in Berlin, the most " eastern european big city in western Europe ", there is like one sambo club and it looks like low level judo. And I am not aware of a single significant shidokan / ashihara / kudo club in the 3 biggest German cities.

There is MMA of course, but generally speaking in Germany MMA means BJJ + basic K1 style standing. Do not want.

I am shocked, shocked I tell you! You always shat on Karate but now suddenly Kudo (which is essentially Karate + Judo) is the GOAT martial art? Wow!

For high level Kudo and Sambo you need to go to Russia.

Why don't you like the standard BJJ+K1 MMA formula btw?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I am shocked, shocked I tell you! You always shat on Karate but now suddenly Kudo (which is essentially Karate + Judo) is the GOAT martial art? Wow!

For high level Kudo and Sambo you need to go to Russia.

Why don't you like the standard BJJ+K1 MMA formula btw?

I don't really care about labels, BTW, so if I saw some Snake Fist Shaolin-Ryu Shotokan Fu that was legit I would respect it.

Indeed I think that shotokan is mostly horseshit, and so is the case for all the okinawan stuff in my opinion, but everything in kyokushin is legit, so I respect it. Kyokushin is incomplete though as a standup art because of no punches to the face.

So no, I don't systematically hate on karate. Kudo is legit AF, even if it has some karate in it.

As for BJJ+K1, the obvious issue here is that their throws and takedowns tend to be horseshit and I don't like BJJ as a system, but obviously this is only a personal preference as it is obviously the best system for ground grappling. On the K1 aspect : I much prefer muay thai and if it was proper K1 it would still be fine but usually it's trash level K1. That is why I dislike the combination.

Give me MT+Judo or wrestling+boxing every day though.

 

[j123]

Rex Kwon do

There is also maybe PEDs involved too...who knows

It's called drinking you own pee

 

[Hotora86]

I don't really care about labels, BTW, so if I saw some Snake Fist Shaolin-Ryu Shotokan Fu that was legit I would respect it.

Indeed I think that shotokan is mostly horseshit, and so is the case for all the okinawan stuff in my opinion, but everything in kyokushin is legit, so I respect it. Kyokushin is incomplete though as a standup art because of no punches to the face.

So no, I don't systematically hate on karate. Kudo is legit AF, even if it has some karate in it.

As for BJJ+K1, the obvious issue here is that their throws and takedowns tend to be horseshit and I don't like BJJ as a system, but obviously this is only a personal preference as it is obviously the best system for ground grappling. On the K1 aspect : I much prefer muay thai and if it was proper K1 it would still be fine but usually it's trash level K1. That is why I dislike the combination.

Give me MT+Judo or wrestling+boxing every day though.

What do you say to the opinion voiced by many in this thread (and my own thread) that so-called "point fighters" have generally been more successful than Kyokushin guys in MMA?
(greater level of success without as much modification + higher number of fighters adapted to MMA overall - see post https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/karate-blackbelts-in-mma.3256127/page-25#post-163469400)
Doesn't that make Shotokan "legit"?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

What do you say to the opinion voiced by many in this thread (and my own thread) that so-called "point fighters" have generally been more successful than Kyokushin guys in MMA?
(greater level of success without as much modification + higher number of fighters adapted to MMA overall - see post https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/karate-blackbelts-in-mma.3256127/page-25#post-163469400)
Doesn't that make Shotokan "legit"?

No I don't think that the small number of fighters that have made shotokan work in MMA justify shotokan's existence. In absolute numbers and in proportion to other systems it is not meaningful.

Then these guys cross trained other styles.

And lastly, I have conceded to you in other instances that maybe the 10% of shotokan which isn't horseshit did indeed give them an edge, but that still does not justify the 90% mumbo jumbo.

If Machida and Wonderboy made it work, cool, but for one Machida you have 10.000 guys who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paperbag.

The opportunity cost of shotokan is too high when you have other fully proven styles out there.

Sorry. Shotokan = shit, brat.

 

[Hotora86]

No I don't think that the small number of fighters that have made shotokan work in MMA justify shotokan's existence. In absolute numbers and in proportion to other systems it is not meaningful.

Then these guys cross trained other styles.

And lastly, I have conceded to you in other instances that maybe the 10% of shotokan which isn't horseshit did indeed give them an edge, but that still does not justify the 90% mumbo jumbo.

If Machida and Wonderboy made it work, cool, but for one Machida you have 10.000 guys who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paperbag.

The opportunity cost of shotokan is too high when you have other fully proven styles out there.

Sorry. Shotokan = shit, brat.

FYI the numbers are
Kyokushin 40
Shotokan 24
so it's not that huge of a difference. IMO more guys come to MMA from Kyokushin so the failure % could be higher for Kyokushin vs Shotokan oddly enough. Not trying to shit on Kyokushin, it's great, but I don't think it's vastly more successful in MMA than Shotokan. In K-1 for sure but not in MMA.

And I'll just act as if you said "brat" in Russian.