Was Randy Couture right?

jericksen5 said:
...when he said submissions will disappear from MMA within the next 10 years? When i think about it, he might be right. With the new generation of MMA fighters starting out learning everything, it makes sense that they will be learning only defensive bjj, and how to get position, neglecting submissions. it takes 10+ years to get a black belt, i think this new generation will learn only how to defend, and we will see a resurgence of the striking arts. Is this trend already becoming apparent with Anderson Silva and Crocop? I hope randy is wrong, theres nothing more exciting then watching a top fighter go to sleep, what do you guys think?

I think you got a good point there but like you i hope this won't happen. Still though i see better athletes today but not neceserely better MA artists.... I believe that in the ligh weight divisions we will have more subs becouse the weight of the punches and kicks is smaller than the LH and Heavyweight divisions.
 
Ali baba I fully understand your point better but lets remember wrestling is not just leg takedowns.
I give credit to Q Mystic for this link on another thread.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=f5KpF8yAG1o

But to summarize I think it is EASIER to learn to defend grappling than to be good at offensive grappling.

ALL grappling.

Lets look at this for a moment using many of the examples that are already on this thread.
Good wrestlers getting stuffed on TD attempts...Tito, Randy C, Coleman, Hughes..its goes on and on.

By the same token as Randy C said subs ARE going down as you see guys going the distance even WHEN they are on the mat with a VERY VERY good sub grappler.
Call it what you will...defense, stalling whatever. The fact is, the sub is getting stuffed too.
Some example include Serra V Shonie..even gave up his back at least twice and got back to his feet rather easily honestly.
Lister v the Japanses guy a few months back. Not sure his name. Randy C stalling his way to a draw v Jacare in of all things a sub grappling match. i wouldve NEVER considered that a possibility. I mean Jacares offensive sub grappling is so much higher than Randy C's its not even funny. There are many more examples but it seems with MMA it is pretty easy to learn to defend TD's and defend subs..now sprinkle in the pain a good striker can deal if you miss the TD or Sub and you have Lidell, Fedor, Cro Cop etc..
 
I'm not sure, but in some fights, it appears that some people in the dominant position on the ground get distracted by punches thrown from the bottom, or throwing weak punches from the top.

I've only had brief/light experience with grappling with striked thrown in, but if I don't really expose my jaw, I don't feel too threatened by punches form the bottom, in fact I sometimes welcome them so the person gets a little worn down and plus it exposes an arm or two.

As to the grappling, yeah I agree it will go in cycles. I think grappling will have to evolve to another point that addresses the issues/problems that are surfacing now. The takedown game will change in the same way.

BJJ as it is today hasn't even been around for 100 years, and with the the more open-ness to evolving I believe that people will work on new techniques to keep strikers at bay and get them into a sub.

IMO I love a sub/choke more than a knockout. That's just me though.
 
Nope. Submissions, especially from someone's guard are still a huge part of MMA and will always be.
 
One thing that bodes well for Randy's prediction is that wrestling hasn't evolved to MMA. Almost all takedowns are double legs from a distance, and there's almost no integration of takedowns with striking. Many BJJ guys are awful wrestlers--watching Jason McDonald trying to take down Chris Leben was pathetic--and are forced to fight on their feet by pure strikers. And the rules--standup after what, now, 30 seconds?--definitely work against submission masters used to setting up moves for 10 minutes in the gym.
 
GnP wouldnt work if subs were not a threat. I cant imagine the RNC and triangle becoming extinct.

If anything basic armbars might begin to disappear, but only because of changes to the rules, not changes to the fighters.
 
I guess Randy was wrong. You still see submissions in MMA.
 
It's interesting to see old threads like this brought up. It's seems Randy was completely wrong in his prediction. The BJJ level of wrestlers and strikers has increased quite a bit and now it's not strange to find wrestlers or strikers with black belts. However the level of BJJ in general has also increased and people are better at finishing submissions. I haven't looked up the stats,but it seems like the number of people getting finished by subs is the same as 10 years ago.
 
It's also easy to submit someone you've just punches them 62 times in the head.
 
I think Randy was right to an extent; grappling has become more marginalized due to a mixture of rules, judging and the fact that grapplers are not seen as marketable relative to strikers and brawlers. So in other words, wrong in terms of submissions becoming marginalized due to technical advancements, but perhaps correct to some extent that they would become marginalized. Maybe it's all in my head, but I feel like the UFC currently favors and incentivizes striking.
 
I think Randy was right to an extent; grappling has become more marginalized due to a mixture of rules, judging and the fact that grapplers are not seen as marketable relative to strikers and brawlers. So in other words, wrong in terms of submissions becoming marginalized due to technical advancements, but perhaps correct to some extent that they would become marginalized. Maybe it's all in my head, but I feel like the UFC currently favors and incentivizes striking.

Yeah he was in the ball park, things like guard playing in MMA is becoming a thing of the past - and there's more focus on riding and pinning opponents for gnp now
 
Yeah he was in the ball park, things like guard playing in MMA is becoming a thing of the past - and there's more focus on riding and pinning opponents for gnp now

I’m not sure it was huge back in 2007 either. You still get a few people here and there who can pull it off but the vast majority of fighters have been averse to using guard offensively since Mark Coleman broke people’s faces with his forehead.
 
I’m not sure it was huge back in 2007 either. You still get a few people here and there who can pull it off but the vast majority of fighters have been averse to using guard offensively since Mark Coleman broke people’s faces with his forehead.
That said, getting too content hanging out in guard can be lethal. Look at what McKee did to Darrion Caldwell recently, for example. I personally believe Caldwell is the superior grappler, but I think he just took the guard for granted. Then you got stuff like Anthony Pettis versus Benson Henderson 2. Offense guard as a primary strategy might be a tough way to go, but people that hang out in there better watch their p's and q's if it's a good player.
 
That said, getting too content hanging out in guard can be lethal. Look at what McKee did to Darrion Caldwell recently, for example. I personally believe Caldwell is the superior grappler, but I think he just took the guard for granted. Then you got stuff like Anthony Pettis versus Benson Henderson 2. Offense guard as a primary strategy might be a tough way to go, but people that hang out in there better watch their p's and q's if it's a good player.

There’s are also reasons guard aversion that aren’t purely about what’s most effective. While guard is obviously the inferior position in MMA the rule set in the UFC actually exaggerated the issue. In the UFC you have 5 minutes a round, no up kicks, and if you’re on your back you’re losing regardless of whether or not you’re threatening subs. Tactically that makes guard inferior on top of having gravity work against you. Basically means if you don’t think you can finish guy you’re best avoiding the position entirely and just cage walking.

I’m not sure how ONE scores on the ground but something similar would apply to pushing your opponent against the fence there. In the UFC it’s considered octagon control but in ONE it’s not scored at all so there’s less reason to do it if you’re not confident you can take advantage offensively.
 
...when he said submissions will disappear from MMA within the next 10 years? When i think about it, he might be right. With the new generation of MMA fighters starting out learning everything, it makes sense that they will be learning only defensive bjj, and how to get position, neglecting submissions. it takes 10+ years to get a black belt, i think this new generation will learn only how to defend, and we will see a resurgence of the striking arts. Is this trend already becoming apparent with Anderson Silva and Crocop? I hope randy is wrong, theres nothing more exciting then watching a top fighter go to sleep, what do you guys think?
I don't think they'll disappear they'll just become more rare. Likely you won't see much but guillotines and rear chokes after an opponent has been worn down and is looking for a reason to quit. The main reason isn't the lack of Effectiveness it's the rules of modern MMA. An athlete can simply stall on the ground for a magic stand up without any penalty whatsoever so characters like Derek Lewis can go in there and take a few big swings get taken down and just hold on waiting for the referee to step in and extricate him. only a tiny handful of athletes have started to pick up on this exploit but as the sport evolves it will become more and more apparent theres no reason to fight out of an inferior grappling position or try to improve your position at all. Just hold on and look up at the referee after the crowd starts to boo and he'll let you stand up without penalizing your score. World class Grapplers will get sick of this and begin to avoid the sport while Reckless Sluggers will be heavily benefited by this and poorpour in with record numbers much to the Glee of the promoters who really want a Rock'em sock'em robots experience for the fan completely devoid of technical ground grappling.

I know they can easily fix this but choose not to because it's not expedient for their goal.

All they have to do is penalize the athlete who's in the inferior grappling position when the crowd demands a stand-up so they no longer get out from underneath their opponent for free but the UFC won't do this because they don't want to penalize Reckless Sluggers... they want to make the sluggers life easier and more effective in the ring
 
That said, getting too content hanging out in guard can be lethal. Look at what McKee did to Darrion Caldwell recently, for example. I personally believe Caldwell is the superior grappler, but I think he just took the guard for granted. Then you got stuff like Anthony Pettis versus Benson Henderson 2. Offense guard as a primary strategy might be a tough way to go, but people that hang out in there better watch their p's and q's if it's a good player.
do you agree that the lack of a booing crowd has changed how the referees administer the fight?

I believe at this point they allow more ground work and are less likely to stop fights because the crowd isn't there screaming for stand-ups or freaking out on knockdowns!
 
I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen a stand up or a quick one either
 
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