Wing Chun kicks should be banned in MMA

[Woldog]

I 100% believe the heel hook is far more dangerous than a kick to the knee, the only variable is with a heel hook its on you to tap out with a kick to the knee you have no choice in the matter.

 

[ninjaDre]

oh, sooOOOOOoooo now all of a sudden the shit i've been saying it the bees knees, for decades, while getting laughed at ganged up on and bullied for saying it is all of a sudden 'too deadly for the octagon.'

the funny thing is people weren't laughing at it when I used to use them.

People who don't think traditional martial arts don't work are generally just trying to inflate their own ego and dispel their own insecurities by telling themselves their art is superior. I've trained all over and there are absolutely killers in kung fu and karate. If anyone doesn't believe it go spar the south Korean national Sanda team and get back to me lol.

 

[TheMaster]

I know its a joke but it hurts my heart to read Durans name in a WC thread. "Sticky hands" and WC punching/deflecting is like comparing Abramowitschs luxury yacht with a floating toilet in the ocean. Both are able to float but there are "small" differences.

You continue to prove you are a troll and an idiot.
It's not a joke, and the training clips he was doing are very similar to some elements of chi sau.

Is Anderson joking here?








Of course Duran is less refined in that area since he has no formal training in it but adapted similar principles to a boxing setting extremely well.

 

[JohnPJones]

I 100% believe the heel hook is far more dangerous than a kick to the knee, the only variable is with a heel hook its on you to tap out with a kick to the knee you have no choice in the matter.

Assuming the hooker doesn’t manage to insta-crank it before you can tap

 

[Woldog]

Assuming the hooker doesn’t manage to insta-crank it before you can tap

Nah bro they all love waiting for that sweet sweet tap

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

I know its a joke but it hurts my heart to read Durans name in a WC thread. "Sticky hands" and WC punching/deflecting is like comparing Abramowitschs luxury yacht with a floating toilet in the ocean. Both are able to float but there are "small" differences.

I don't entirely agree; what I would say is that the principle of chi sau/trapping that they emphasize in wing chun is obviously sound - there's Roberto Duran doing something akin to it in professional boxing - but the way a lot of wing chun is trained precludes it from being usefully applied. Hell, even the "smothering" motions that George Foreman used are somewhat akin to trapping - using your hands to steal the force from punches, etc.

My biggest point here is that the number one thing that makes or breaks a technique or style of what have you is "live training". Which a lot of wing chun schools don't do in a sufficiently realistic manner.

 

[listrahtes]

I don't entirely agree; what I would say is that the principle of chi sau/trapping that they emphasize in wing chun is obviously sound - there's Roberto Duran doing something akin to it in professional boxin

I can tell you fantastic "principles" If the implementation is dog shit the principle is only hot air and thats wing chun. It may look similar but Durans is real world skills based on actual fighting and not some make belief ma were even the so called grandmasters can be killed with a wet towel. He combined infighting with sophisticated upper body and head movement , combined with an art form of hand and arm trapping thats just completely different, combined it with footwork, high level cardio and so on and on.

I have "chi saud" etc with so called masters and they have no clue what that really means. Only argument then is that somewere in a cave in Hongkong there are secret WC masters who know what they do. The WC guys who enter competition start training boxing / MT etc and use that 100% when fighting. Without exception.

Wing Chun is a nice looking cake filled with dog shit. There is just nothing of worth because no one there has a clue about fighting so every idea they have lacks implementation. Best example is TheMaster here himself who would rather jump out of a plane without parachute then posting a shadow boxing / bag video. Its all make believe.

 

[KOcounter]

Yes, and you're very wrong as I have explained. What Orr is doesn't look 'like boxing', even the heavily hybridized and modifed version of 'boxing' that we see in MMA.

There is no historical precedent because it wasn't used in this setting. That doesn't mean that as a principle based system one cannot be fully consistent with the art and apply it to MMA. When we add the factor of cross training with catch wrestling and maybe even few things here and there from whichever compatible arts (as pretty much every legit MMA fighter does today) we get a system that looks like what Orr is using - 100% applied Wing Chun in a stand-up MMA setting.


It may not look exactly like what you imagine WC is, which is frankly irrelevant given you have very little knowledge, but it is still fully legit.
You also don't have enough understanding to critique the historic use in any way since you say they use 'weak arm punches'.<45>

The reason I also mention the illegal techniques is because classic Wing Chun looks like it does partly because it will render you unconscious within a few seconds of getting close if necessary using these methods, and they do change the dynamics.

You can't have it both ways - eliminate about 30% of the system and the most dangerous strikes to make it sport compatible, put it in with wrestlers and kickboxers in a big ring to move in but then still want it to look exactly the same as traditional WC. It will look different, and to a certain extent there will be some convergence with what we see in 'mma boxing' or 'mma Muay Thai'.
That doesn't change that it's using different mechanics to get to a similar goal.

I even distinguish 'Traditional WC' from 'freestyle WC' where the principle are consistent with strikes done from unconventional angles, more range fighting, integration with chi sau skills and grappling. It is an evolution,and ultimately about what works.

I'm responding to this very late because I have a life and this thread was making me nauseous.

Again, you can keep telling me I have no knowledge of wing chun, but it's not true and the knowledge I do have seems to be more than enough to deal with you, which must feel embarrassing for you.

You've backtracked now and are acting like it never looked like boxing historically because it wasn't designed for that setting but it's not neccesarily true that wing chun didn't have a dueling aspect to the art and was only used for specific self defence scenarios. Also again you assume that everything in that context ends up looking identical to modern boxing, when it took time and a particular context to develop modern boxing. More likely it would resemble classical pugilism and even then it would not be identical.

The arm punch comment wasn't to say that they don't use power punches but was saying that it was more focused on speedy punches relying on the triceps than classical pugilism. This is a theory but it seems that wing chun was a swarming style meant to close the gap so it makes sense that they may think a way to do this is to overwhelm people with rapid punching, especially if they re fighting untrained people.

 

[TheMaster]

You've backtracked now and are acting like it never looked like boxing historically because it wasn't designed for that setting but it's not neccesarily true that wing chun didn't have a dueling aspect to the art and was only used for specific self defence scenarios. Also again you assume that everything in that context ends up looking identical to modern boxing, when it took time and a particular context to develop modern boxing. More likely it would resemble classical pugilism and even then it would not be identical.

Yes, I agreed classic pugilism is a closer fit which is why people have speculated including with the stance.



What I am saying is that what we saw in Diaz-Lawler 2 looks only vaguely like 'boxing' and draws on many other arts and adaptations to the small gloves and broader rules.
WC in MMA is going to look much more similar to what they were doing than to boxing. So there can be a convergence there since 'boxing' has had to drastically change and become cross trained to work in mma standup also.

The arm punch comment wasn't to say that they don't use power punches but was saying that it was more focused on speedy punches relying on the triceps than classical pugilism. This is a theory but it seems that wing chun was a swarming style meant to close the gap so it makes sense that they may think a way to do this is to overwhelm people with rapid punching, especially if they re fighting untrained people.

Even if a 'swarming' approach was sometimes used in self defence setting it would be ridiculous to think it has to be done like that.
The whole point is adaptation and evolution for what works. In a ring fight with a trained fighter coming in and out, the strategy is going to change. And WC has all the tools to make it adapt.
'Boxing' doesnt have a monopoly on pacing oneself and looking for openings.

 

[KOcounter]

Yes, I agreed classic pugilism is a closer fit which is why people have speculated including with the stance.
View attachment 884448


What I am saying is that what we saw in Diaz-Lawler 2 looks only vaguely like 'boxing' and draws on many other arts and adaptations to the small gloves and broader rules.
WC in MMA is going to look much more similar to what they were doing than to boxing. So there can be a convergence there since 'boxing' has had to drastically change and become cross trained to work in mma standup also.



Even if a 'swarming' approach was sometimes used in self defence setting it would be ridiculous to think it has to be done like that.
The whole point is adaptation and evolution for what works. In a ring fight with a trained fighter coming in and out, the strategy is going to change. And WC has all the tools to make it adapt.
'Boxing' doesnt have a monopoly on pacing oneself and looking for openings.

Boxing in MMA doesn't look identical to traditional boxing for a bunch of reasons from the stances fighters typically stand in to other variables. With that said there are quite a few elements of mma striking that make the way they box and train boxing today more in line with trad boxing than boxing in MT or KB, due to the longer stances, less spamming of kicks due to the takedown threat and the resulting ability to more easily get away with certain boxing defensive movement and bladed stances than in MT. Regardless the punching in MMA is still clearly mostly built upon boxing and looks far more boxing like than it does wing chun like.

The wing chun stance in MMA would be pretty open to shooting takedowns, much like the classical pugilism stance. Not exactly the most balanced postion for the sport and the trapping in MMA resembles a mix of Boxing, MT and basic Karate like trapping more so than the trapping of arts like wing chun.

At best it sometimes looks more like the basic traps of the Jun fan kickboxing portion of jkd, which are modified versions of very basic wing chun moves
, many of which exist in other arts. This is not to say I don't think there are any chun specific traps that could have application but the idea that we are generally seeing them seems bonkers.

 

[TheMaster]

Regardless the punching in MMA is still clearly mostly built upon boxing and looks far more boxing like than it does wing chun like.

No shit, they mainly train boxing for punches not WC.
I am saying only there will be a definite convergence of WC in MMA standup with what we see if 'box-thai-greco' in MMA standup.

The wing chun stance in MMA would be pretty open to shooting takedowns, much like the classical pugilism stance. Not exactly the most balanced postion for the sport

Hopefully you are not thinking that WC guys all stand in a triangular stance with toes pointing inwards. That is more of a training stance. You can choose to stand however is comfortable but your centreline should generally face the opponent is the main thing.

Regardless of how you choose to stand, MMA uses a much more square stance like WC, than a bladed stance as we usually see in boxing.

and the trapping in MMA resembles a mix of Boxing, MT and basic Karate like trapping more so than the trapping of arts like wing chun.

At best it sometimes looks more like the basic traps of the Jun fan kickboxing portion of jkd, which are modified versions of very basic wing chun moves
, many of which exist in other arts. This is not to say I don't think there are any chun specific traps that could have application but the idea that we are generally seeing them seems bonkers.

I think you are being far too specific about trapping in your effort to diminish WC.
We see this with the other guy claiming there was some huge difference in the Duran training clipping where he was basically doing some contact 'chi sau' very similar to Wing Chun training.

WC approach to trappiing is not going to be radically different from how they do it in MT although there will be some differences yes. But there will be some overlap for sure.

 

[TheMaster]

This is what a deliberate WC + Boxing hybrid looks like



The guy has trained WC in Hong Kong.
It's not necessary to combine with boxing like this as WC has all the tools anyway, but considering what we see in MMA is nothing like pure boxing anyway but is hybrid standup with elements of many arts I see no issue if WC guys specifically want to integrate a boxing approach although I choose not to.

 

[lakamas]

Anything that targets an athletes knees should be banned imo. As someone who ruptured their MCL 10 years ago, I still feel it today.

 

[lakamas]

totally agree with you, westernized wing chun is a sorry excuse of a martial art , the only asian martial art that escaped westernization is jiu jitsu through the Brazilians and judo through the Russians , most asian martial arts were used for military purposes so they always had weapons in them, the true purpose of them was to kill people, now with guns and bombs they are obsolete so people use them as a way to grab money and make schools, you can find cultural influences in every sport martial art today so none is complete , you find hand trapping in boxing , kb , mt pretty much everywhere.

 

[KOcounter]

No shit, they mainly train boxing for punches not WC.
I am saying only there will be a definite convergence of WC in MMA standup with what we see if 'box-thai-greco' in MMA standup.


Hopefully you are not thinking that WC guys all stand in a triangular stance with toes pointing inwards. That is more of a training stance. You can choose to stand however is comfortable but your centreline should generally face the opponent is the main thing.

Regardless of how you choose to stand, MMA uses a much more square stance like WC, than a bladed stance as we usually see in boxing.




I think you are being far too specific about trapping in your effort to diminish WC.
We see this with the other guy claiming there was some huge difference in the Duran training clipping where he was basically doing some contact 'chi sau' very similar to Wing Chun training.

WC approach to trappiing is not going to be radically different from how they do it in MT although there will be some differences yes. But there will be some overlap for sure.

My point was that mma striking is closer to boxing in some ways than kb or MT. Even kickboxers or nak Muay with way better boxing than almost any mma fighters typically will box within kb and MT in ways that in many respects resemble traditional boxing less than the the dynamics of mma boxing. A mma stance is often more square than a boxing stance but still often more bladed than a muay thai stance. A standard mma stance however is more similar in height and vertical length to a boxing stance compared to the stances of many kb styles and is not very similar to a wing chun stance which can vary from square to slightly bladed but is competely different in many other aspects.

And no I'm not talking about the pigeon toed training stance used in forms. I'm talking about stances like this



This sort of stance is not totally dissimilar to classical pugilism during the London prize ring era, which was designed for a ruleset where only more upright grappling and the cross buttock throw (basically a hip throw) were allowed and shooting takedowns were illegal. Again I don't think wing chun was ever designed originally to fight the sort of people who would be shooting for double legs in a fight.

The point about the muay thai and boxing trapping is that the trapping we do see in MMA usually more closely resembles those arts, regardless of how much of that stuff you think wing chun shares. In other words it looks more like the sort of techniques we'd either see as universal or would more closely associate with MT, Boxing, KB and similar arrs Than wing chun. And the way they perform the basics that might coexist in wc are clearly more in line with other styles mentioned.

Regardless of your theories about a hypothetical mma future, the idea that present mma looks very chun like relative to boxing seems really bizzare. The most tma like trapping I've seen in WC tends to look more like Karate point fighting trapping, which is often a more exaggerated version of boxing parrying, than the sort of stuff we associate with wc.

 

[TheMaster]

I don't entirely agree; what I would say is that the principle of chi sau/trapping that they emphasize in wing chun is obviously sound - there's Roberto Duran doing something akin to it in professional boxing - but the way a lot of wing chun is trained precludes it from being usefully applied. Hell, even the "smothering" motions that George Foreman used are somewhat akin to trapping - using your hands to steal the force from punches, etc.

My biggest point here is that the number one thing that makes or breaks a technique or style of what have you is "live training". Which a lot of wing chun schools don't do in a sufficiently realistic manner.

Yes this is exactly correct and the principles are on a solid foundation no matter what people try to say.
The main WC hater on here has sone agenda against it due to last experince so he cant be taken seriously.

It's all about live training, Japanese Ju Jitsu is similarly worthless without live training then look what happened when it became live, it led to Judo, Sambo and BJJ.

WC has some 'live' training with chi sau but it's still obviously very specific and limited compared to full free sparring and fighting.

What gets me is the almost paranoid hate, and even what comes across to me as fear around here about the idea of properly trained WC being highly effective.

Judo is a well respected style and foundational style in MMA and I have been around both high level Judoka and WC guys and I would 100% rather fight the Judoka if given the choice. I might lose sill but it would be a far less painful and violently brutal experience.



If anyone can't see how these principles can be effective and applicable they are simply a low level martial artist without real understanding of fighting.

 

[Woldog]

Yes this is exactly correct and the principles are on a solid foundation no matter what people try to say.
The main WC hater on here has sone agenda against it due to last experince so he cant be taken seriously.

It's all about live training, Japanese Ju Jitsu is similarly worthless without live training then look what happened when it became live, it led to Judo, Sambo and BJJ.

WC has some 'live' training with chi sau but it's still obviously very specific and limited compared to full free sparring and fighting.

What gets me is the almost paranoid hate, and even what comes across to me as fear around here about the idea of properly trained WC being highly effective.

Judo is a well respected style and foundational style in MMA and I have been around both high level Judoka and WC guys and I would 100% rather fight the Judoka if given the choice. I might lose sill but it would be a far less painful and violently brutal experience.



If anyone can't see how these principles can be effective and applicable they are simply a low level martial artist without real understanding of fighting.

Lets face it, any martial art regardless of origin is basically pointless without live training. I'm fairly certain everyone can agree on that fact. It'd be like jumping into fight pro as a boxer or muay thai guy when all you've done is shadow boxing, pads and bag work but never sparred.

Whether a martial art is ineffective or effective does not really boil down to techniques. It comes down to the individual practitioners and how often they push themselves in a live environment.
Without true to live (or as close as you can without physically killing/maiming your partner) most combat styles would be pointless, it would be like fencing if you only fenced against a dummy that didn't move, or being a master archer at hitting stationary targets but then being asked to hit one that's moving quite fast.
While everyone here myself included is guilty of saying this or that is completely useless, its more the practitioners are useless when the martial may not be. Without seeing it be effective in a live/real fight/scenario no one will give it credit.

No one ever would have taken BJJ seriously if the Gracies didn't enter enter UFC 1 and catch out everyone there with a style they necessarily hadn't seen before (Thanks to them we had a cult form around BJJ). Its a lot harder to defend against something you do not understand being performed by an expert, the caveat to that is you can't have real experts who have not done live training with said martial art.

Everyone here is predisposition to prefer the arts they train in and we all lean towards certain bias and it is incredibly difficult to change a persons point of view when it is ingrained into them. For instance you have been preaching about WC since 2006, it would not be incorrect to say you are quite the fan of Wing Chun, so obviously you're more likely to see the benefits of it over the flaws.
Any scenario that you can think of i.e Boxing vs WC or Boxing vs MT Or MT vs Judo either one of us could come up with 100 hypothetical reasons why the style we prefer beats the other style and vice versa.

In the future there will likely be someone who is fanatical about WC but opts to use it in MMA for his entire career and that will inspire a whole generation of WC fanatics.

I know I'm rambling but I'm trying to be less combative and more reasonable on here.

 

[listrahtes]

People who don't think traditional martial arts don't work are generally just trying to inflate their own ego and dispel their own insecurities by telling themselves their art is superior. I've trained all over and there are absolutely killers in kung fu and karate. If anyone doesn't believe it go spar the south Korean national Sanda team and get back to me lol.

You realize that Sanda is trained competition based. The absolute opposite of what this thread is about. There is also high level Karate, TKD etc like you wrote because these guys go into competition and legit fight / spar. Karate has a strong full contact history through John Bluming ...etc. and played a huge part in developing mixed martial arts. Some Karateka belong to the mos impressive stand up fighters alltime like Andy Hug, Glaube Feitosa. But this is about make believe TMA who never spar, never compete and have no clue about fighting. Its about the esoteric mumbojumbo TMAs like 99% of Wing Chun. Maybe next time read the thread and why this TMA is criticized.

Kung Fu btw I would disagree. Know quite some chinese and even in China next to no one besides foreigners gives a fuck about Kung Fu. At Universities its Sanda / TKD and the same with clubs. Youths who go into a martial arts mostly go into one of these two. TKD is by far the biggest ma in China not Kung Fu. Thats because Kung Fu stopped existing with the maoist revolution and got eradicated. What you see nowadays is mostly the same what Wing Chun does. Make believe in costumes.

TMAs are fantastic if trained propper. My favourite is Sumo. A highly effective martial art with a full contact tradition going back in history without any break in continuitiy at least to 720 bc Very impressive if we think about it and with nexto to no changes in rules and training methods is still at the top in regards to its focus of fighting.

 

[TheMaster]

You realize that Sanda is trained competition based. The absolute opposite of what this thread is about. There is also high level Karate, TKD etc like you wrote because these guys go into competition and legit fight / spar. Karate has a strong full contact history through John Bluming ...etc. and played a huge part in developing mixed martial arts. Some Karateka belong to the mos impressive stand up fighters alltime like Andy Hug, Glaube Feitosa. But this is about make believe TMA who never spar, never compete and have no clue about fighting. Its about the esoteric mumbojumbo TMAs like 99% of Wing Chun. Maybe next time read the thread and why this TMA is criticized.

Kung Fu btw I would disagree. Know quite some chinese and even in China next to no one besides foreigners gives a fuck about Kung Fu. At Universities its Sanda / TKD and the same with clubs. Youths who go into a martial arts mostly go into one of these two. TKD is by far the biggest ma in China not Kung Fu. Thats because Kung Fu stopped existing with the maoist revolution and got eradicated. What you see nowadays is mostly the same what Wing Chun does. Make believe in costumes.

Basically styles which spar make their system work.

There is nothing make believe when you get punched and elbowed in the face, then thrown and head stomped.
There is nothing make believe about getting your knee stomped when you lean forward to throw a jab.

More WC guys are doing sparring these days, wearing the protective gear and going at it.

Likewise cross training in Judo or BJJ among WC practicioners is much more common to be a complete fighter at all ranges.

Lastly I will say that as a principle based system WC can evolve and is not constrained. So if someone does a style of WC favouring hooks from the third form over straight punches it can also be consistent and still 100% Wing Chun.

 

[shincheckin]

This is what a deliberate WC + Boxing hybrid looks like



The guy has trained WC in Hong Kong.
It's not necessary to combine with boxing like this as WC has all the tools anyway, but considering what we see in MMA is nothing like pure boxing anyway but is hybrid standup with elements of many arts I see no issue if WC guys specifically want to integrate a boxing approach although I choose not to.

Didnt watch whole vid but first clip with the boxing is good. Hand trapping works regardless of where its coming from. WC shoots itself in the foot with the follow up slipidy slap strikes and as well as with some overly elaborate traps/parrys.

Theres useful techniques in it for sure. I think you do need to be at a high level to recognize this as well as open minded. You preach live sparring. I agree. The problem is the wc system as a whole seems to be largely based on theory, which is where the nonsense comes from and why there is so much of it in it.