Ahmad Shah Massoud's son poised to fight Taliban in Panjshir, just like his father once did

I'm very skeptical that the majority of Tajiks and Uzbekis support the Taliban; I have to say I highly doubt that it is the case. As far as what happens in the coming decades, neither you nor I have crystal ball. The Hazara population is something like 20% of Afghanistan. I wouldn't call that "tiny, tiny." And they were once the majority.

Than why do you think Kunduz, Mazar-Sharif and all of this cities fell without a single bullet.. Their cities fell easier than Taliban dominated south like Lashkar Gah, Kandahar and Herat who actully fought.

This new Taliban has legions of Tajikis, Uzebkis and even Noorstanis and some other northernly Afghan minorities.. The Tajikis and Uzebkis are entirely Taliban now and included in the government of Taliban.. These who took the North with blitz were actully Taliban's Uzbek and Tajik legions that is why the tribal elders didn't fight and let cities fall without a bullet
 
Than why do you think Kunduz, Mazar-Sharif and all of this cities fell without a single bullet.. Their cities fell easier than Taliban dominated south like Lashkar Gah, Kandahar and Herat who actully fought.

This new Taliban has legions of Tajikis, Uzebkis and even Noorstanis and some other northernly Afghan minorities.. The Tajikis and Uzebkis are entirely Taliban now and included in the government of Taliban.. These who took the North with blitz were actully Taliban's Uzbek and Tajik legions that is why the tribal elders didn't fight and let cities fall without a bullet
I mean, I know that some Tajik joined the Taliban; that was already happening years ago. But to argue that they are the majority; I'd highly doubt that. For the past 20 years, people outside the security forces have been encouraged to lay down their arms and leave the fighting to the government. That changes a lot. A lot of people, instead of being raised to fight in regional ethnic militias, were trying to participate in society as students, government employees, teachers, etc. Ethnic groups, especially in this era, aren't necessarily characterized in their entirety by the people presuming to take up arms on their behalf.
 
Yeah, I'm familiar with Afshar, but from what I understand and from what Human Rights Watch actually contends, the chaos that went down there wasn't really Massoud's fault. My understanding is that Hekmatyar was rocketing the city from the inside, which basically meant civilian casualties were absolutely unavoidable and there would be no real clean solution. I mean, I don't think anyone can argue that Hekmatyar is not a butcher and a mass-murderer.

I think you're deflecting. There were widespread rapes and atrocities by Massoud's forces and allies. Even after he tried to regain control, he appointed a shia commander who simply targeted Pashtun civilians with murders and rapes. He also did shady shit like for example during the 80s he made deals with the Soviets to let their troops pass South to attack Southern and Eastern Afghanistan, where different (AKA Pashtun) Mujahideen groups held territory. 1000s of people were displaced and killed as a result of these actions.


PESHAWAR: General Gramov, commander of ex-soviet invading army in Afghanistan, has revealed that present leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan Ahmad Shah Masoud had inked an agreement with Moscow that ensured safe passage to the former USSR troops through Salang and Panjsher valleys during the Afghan jihad.
http://www.rawa.org/massoud3.htm

Bruce Richardson on General Gramov’s revelations regarding Ahmad Shah Massoud’s agreement in complicity signing an agreement with the Soviets to ensure “safe passage of Russian army through the dangerous Salang and Panjsher valleys.” The Soviet general adds that “Masoud sometimes used to stage sham skirmishes with the Russians to put off chances of suspicions about his activities among other Mujahideen groups.” Bruce Richardson, “Intimidation, Subversion and Pacification: Russian Policy in Transcaucasia, Central Asia and Afghanistan” March 1996.
https://www.mei.edu/publications/identity-crisis-identity-crisis-afghanistan#_ftnref2
 
I think you're deflecting. There were widespread rapes and atrocities by Massoud's forces and allies. Even after he tried to regain control, he appointed a shia commander who simply targeted Pashtun civilians with murders and rapes. He also did shady shit like for example during the 80s he made deals with the Soviets to let their troops pass South to attack Southern and Eastern Afghanistan, where different (AKA Pashtun) Mujahideen groups held territory. 1000s of people were displaced and killed as a result of these actions.


PESHAWAR: General Gramov, commander of ex-soviet invading army in Afghanistan, has revealed that present leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan Ahmad Shah Masoud had inked an agreement with Moscow that ensured safe passage to the former USSR troops through Salang and Panjsher valleys during the Afghan jihad.
http://www.rawa.org/massoud3.htm

Bruce Richardson on General Gramov’s revelations regarding Ahmad Shah Massoud’s agreement in complicity signing an agreement with the Soviets to ensure “safe passage of Russian army through the dangerous Salang and Panjsher valleys.” The Soviet general adds that “Masoud sometimes used to stage sham skirmishes with the Russians to put off chances of suspicions about his activities among other Mujahideen groups.” Bruce Richardson, “Intimidation, Subversion and Pacification: Russian Policy in Transcaucasia, Central Asia and Afghanistan” March 1996.
https://www.mei.edu/publications/identity-crisis-identity-crisis-afghanistan#_ftnref2
Well, according to Human Rights Watch, Massoud's troops actually came out pretty well, especially compared to the others involved. Massoud always said he screwed up in Afshar though; he addressed it when he and Abdul Haq finally met and were able to forge an alliance (short-lived, of course, because they both died not long after). He refused Haq's help, thinking, as I understand, that the government should take care of it rather than a bunch of militias and later said that was one of his many mistakes there. But I certainly don't think it is fair to blame him for it more than Hekmatyar; if you're trying to stop a guy shelling a city from within, people are going to die, no matter what. It is a no-win situation. If he'd ignored it, that wouldn't have been good either. You had an Iranian-backed militia, a Saudi-backed militia plus Hekmatyar. That's a difficult situation to manage.

As far as his truce with the Soviets, yes, that did happen, but it was temporary and as I understand, done out of necessity because Panjshir was simply exhausted and ready to fall otherwise. They had a truce and then Massoud and his men decided they were ready to go again, a Soviet with a fancy car was ambushed, his car was stolen and that was basically a sign that the fight was back on. Ghost Wars by Steve Coll details this, as well as Taliban by Ahmad Rashid.

Look at how he protected the Hazaras, or how he tried to save Najibulllah from the Taliban, even after all their enmity...or how he accepted a former Taliban, Karzai, into the Northern Alliance. Heck, his efforts to warn America of 9-11, some have written off as self-interested, but what would be self-interested would be to have let it happen, because it would guarantee American support against the Taliban and Al Quaeda.
 
Well, according to Human Rights Watch, Massoud's troops actually came out pretty well, especially compared to the others involved. Massoud always said he screwed up in Afshar though; he addressed it when he and Abdul Haq finally met and were able to forge an alliance (short-lived, of course, because they both died not long after). He refused Haq's help, thinking, as I understand, that the government should take care of it rather than a bunch of militias and later said that was one of his many mistakes there. But I certainly don't think it is fair to blame him for it more than Hekmatyar; if you're trying to stop a guy shelling a city from within, people are going to die, no matter what. It is a no-win situation. If he'd ignored it, that wouldn't have been good either. You had an Iranian-backed militia, a Saudi-backed militia plus Hekmatyar. That's a difficult situation to manage.

As far as his truce with the Soviets, yes, that did happen, but it was temporary and as I understand, done out of necessity because Panjshir was simply exhausted and ready to fall otherwise. They had a truce and then Massoud and his men decided they were ready to go again, a Soviet with a fancy car was ambushed, his car was stolen and that was basically a sign that the fight was back on. Ghost Wars by Steve Coll details this, as well as Taliban by Ahmad Rashid.

Look at how he protected the Hazaras, or how he tried to save Najibulllah from the Taliban, even after all their enmity...or how he accepted a former Taliban, Karzai, into the Northern Alliance. Heck, his efforts to warn America of 9-11, some have written off as self-interested, but what would be self-interested would be to have let it happen, because it would guarantee American support against the Taliban and Al Quaeda.

We're not talking about people dying in combat or crossfire but noncombatants being systemically killed and brutalized. It was a warcrime through and through and as a leader and orchestrator he bears responsibility for what happened. In regards to the deals with the soviets, the soviets said they would not be able to pass panjshir to conduct operations and rather than tell the other mujahideen that they were in dire shape and could not resist, he played up a deception to make it look like he was still resisting. Without disclosing that he reached or was going to reach a temporary deal, the soviets caught the mujahideen unawares all so that the goatfaced fuck could save his own skin. Its a scumbag move through and through and a betrayal to the cause. Dont get me wrong hekmatyar was a special kind of piece of shit but that doesnt absolve massoud of his own flaws, wrongdoings and evils. His supporters have made him this saint when he is disliked by a lot of people and only because his group came to power was so much focus put on his popularity.
 
We're not talking about people dying in combat or crossfire but noncombatants being systemically killed and brutalized. It was a warcrime through and through and as a leader and orchestrator he bears responsibility for what happened. In regards to the deals with the soviets, the soviets said they would not be able to pass panjshir to conduct operations and rather than tell the other mujahideen that they were in dire shape and could not resist, he played up a deception to make it look like he was still resisting. Without disclosing that he reached or was going to reach a temporary deal, the soviets caught the mujahideen unawares all so that the goatfaced fuck could save his own skin. Its a scumbag move through and through and a betrayal to the cause. Dont get me wrong hekmatyar was a special kind of piece of shit but that doesnt absolve massoud of his own flaws, wrongdoings and evils. His supporters have made him this saint when he is disliked by a lot of people and only because his group came to power was so much focus put on his popularity.
Well, Massoud was getting praise and respect long before the US entered Afghanistan; so that much is not accurate. If anything, he was more popular in a lot of ways prior to coming to power; his greatest popularity was probably during the Soviet invasion. And then after that, probably when he became the last bulwark against the Taliban.

As far as Afshar, the man who orchestrated has to be the man who started it, Hekmatyar and the Iranian backed Hezbes. Again, if people are shelling a city from within, there's no proper response. It is also a fact that journalists on the ground claimed to observe Massoud's men actually rescuing civilians. Massoud obviously screwed up and lots of atrocities have been attributed to Sayyef's side, but did he actually have the power to do anything about Sayyaf while also dealing with Hekmatyar and the Hezbes? Sayyaf wasn't a man he could likely control or anything; Sayyaf was the very person who vouched for the Tunisian suicide bombers who ended up killing Massoud. For whatever it is worth, Massoud always owned up to having failed in Afshar. Like I said, people have attested that he brought this up almost immediately when he met Abdul Haq.

As far as the staged battles, some people have claimed that, for example Charlie Wilson's War, but I honestly think it is a specious claim. There was an intense rivalry and hatred between the various mujihadeen and as I'm sure you know, Hekmatyar had a deep hatred of Massoud but at the same time, had the support and sympathy of Charlie Wilson and some others. Of course accusations like that are going to flow from his rival commanders. The terms of the cease fire were that Russia evacuated Panjshir not that they were given free reign to move through it unmolested and Massoud and Hekmatyar's respective forces engaged in a degree of fighting during this time. It isn't an easy situation where you're dealing with the Russians and also dealing with the growing threat of a guy like Hekmatyar who is getting the lion's share of foreign funds and also wants to wipe you out.
 
Well, Massoud was getting praise and respect long before the US entered Afghanistan; so that much is not accurate. If anything, he was more popular in a lot of ways prior to coming to power; his greatest popularity was probably during the Soviet invasion. And then after that, probably when he became the last bulwark against the Taliban.

As far as Afshar, the man who orchestrated has to be the man who started it, Hekmatyar and the Iranian backed Hezbes. Again, if people are shelling a city from within, there's no proper response. It is also a fact that journalists on the ground claimed to observe Massoud's men actually rescuing civilians. Massoud obviously screwed up and lots of atrocities have been attributed to Sayyef's side, but did he actually have the power to do anything about Sayyaf while also dealing with Hekmatyar and the Hezbes? Sayyaf wasn't a man he could likely control or anything; Sayyaf was the very person who vouched for the Tunisian suicide bombers who ended up killing Massoud. For whatever it is worth, Massoud always owned up to having failed in Afshar. Like I said, people have attested that he brought this up almost immediately when he met Abdul Haq.

As far as the staged battles, some people have claimed that, for example Charlie Wilson's War, but I honestly think it is a specious claim. There was an intense rivalry and hatred between the various mujihadeen and as I'm sure you know, Hekmatyar had a deep hatred of Massoud but at the same time, had the support and sympathy of Charlie Wilson and some others. Of course accusations like that are going to flow from his rival commanders. The terms of the cease fire were that Russia evacuated Panjshir not that they were given free reign to move through it unmolested and Massoud and Hekmatyar's respective forces engaged in a degree of fighting during this time. It isn't an easy situation where you're dealing with the Russians and also dealing with the growing threat of a guy like Hekmatyar who is getting the lion's share of foreign funds and also wants to wipe you out.

Theyre not "accusations" by rival Mujahideen but statements made by the Soviet general after the war. If people are shelling a city from within it doesn't mean a massacre and rape of noncombatants is justified or acceptable and I think youre being too forgiving in justifying it. Maybe if his men raped your mother/sister or killed your family members you'd see things differently. "oh but there were people shelling us so its expected that Massoud's men and his allies jump on your women" come on bro. His popularity saw a resurgence after his death because the new government was made up of his supporters and faction.
 
Theyre not "accusations" by rival Mujahideen but statements made by the Soviet general after the war. If people are shelling a city from within it doesn't mean a massacre and rape of noncombatants is justified or acceptable and I think youre being too forgiving in justifying it. Maybe if his men raped your mother/sister or killed your family members you'd see things differently. "oh but there were people shelling us so its expected that Massoud's men and his allies jump on your women" come on bro. His popularity saw a resurgence after his death because the new government was made up of his supporters and faction.
I think if anything he was most popular before that. Afshar was a huge hit to his standing, especially internationally. I mean, if Massoud was the one responsible for the rape and murder, then of course that's inexcusable. But at the same time, you have eyewitnesses like Jon Jennings who say that his men were the ones that showed the greatest restraint. Is Jennings lying? Maybe, maybe not. I wasn't there, but you do have men like Hekmatyar and Sayyef involved, who are known for their brutality.

I mean, I'm not excusing anything, but is this actually a matter of him ordering and enforcing systematic rapes or a matter of him trying to confront a situation that he was ultimately unable to manage? If it is the former, then of course, that would be inexcusable of anyone. At the same time, shelling a city from the inside is an extreme, extreme action and people that were willing to do that are clearly capable of quite a bit, I mean, obviously they had no problem massacring civilians.

If witnesses like Jennings are telling the truth, then its one thing and if people like him are full of it, then that's something else. Granted, its undeniable that Sayyef was a vicious, ruthless killer and Massoud and him were factional allies in Afshar. And that's bad no matter how you slice it.

As far as the truce; there's no record that Soviets made it through Panjshir during the cease fire though. The agreement was to evacuate Panshir. You have Massoud trying to survive against the Soviets, also trying to survive against Hekmatyar, whom he also views as a wider threat to all of Afghanistan, with both forces having far more resources and money behind them than he does.
 
Theyre not "accusations" by rival Mujahideen but statements made by the Soviet general after the war. If people are shelling a city from within it doesn't mean a massacre and rape of noncombatants is justified or acceptable and I think youre being too forgiving in justifying it. Maybe if his men raped your mother/sister or killed your family members you'd see things differently. "oh but there were people shelling us so its expected that Massoud's men and his allies jump on your women" come on bro. His popularity saw a resurgence after his death because the new government was made up of his supporters and faction.
Look at it like this: is there any effective way that anyone could have handled the situation of Pakistani, Saudi and Iranian backed militias battling it out inside Northern Kabul? You have to acknowledge the reality that the result would have been horrendous and ugly no matter what. Maybe if Massoud hadn't refused Abdul Haq's help it would have been better but it also could have been even worse, couldn't it have been?

I'm sure not excusing raping, pillaging and murdering civilians. But the quesiton is one of attribution, who between those parties involved deserves the bulk of the blame?
 
Look at it like this: is there any effective way that anyone could have handled the situation of Pakistani, Saudi and Iranian backed militias battling it out inside Northern Kabul? You have to acknowledge the reality that the result would have been horrendous and ugly no matter what. Maybe if Massoud hadn't refused Abdul Haq's help it would have been better but it also could have been even worse, couldn't it have been?

I'm sure not excusing raping, pillaging and murdering civilians. But the quesiton is one of attribution, who between those parties involved deserves the bulk of the blame?

In the matter of Afshar, Massoud and his allies deserve it. For while it is horrible to fire from civilian areas, its even worse to then subject those civilians to rape and murder.
 
In the matter of Afshar, Massoud and his allies deserve it. For while it is horrible to fire from civilian areas, its even worse to then subject those civilians to rape and murder.
If it was them, then yeah, its an evil thing.
 
In the matter of Afshar, Massoud and his allies deserve it. For while it is horrible to fire from civilian areas, its even worse to then subject those civilians to rape and murder.
I guess my point is that, of all the parties involved, you've got Massoud and Jamiat, who brokered cease fires and went out of their away to avoid civilian casualties, even agreeing to making Hekmatyar prime minister for a time so he would stop. I could be wrong, but I would assume that the Hezbis, Hekmatyar and Sayyef's Salafist factions were the ones responsible for the civilian atrocities. People like John Jennings reported seeing Massoud's men try to save Hazaras from danger, for example. Are there any reports like that regarding the other factions?

I could be wrong though.
 
I guess my point is that, of all the parties involved, you've got Massoud and Jamiat, who brokered cease fires and went out of their away to avoid civilian casualties, even agreeing to making Hekmatyar prime minister for a time so he would stop. I could be wrong, but I would assume that the Hezbis, Hekmatyar and Sayyef's Salafist factions were the ones responsible for the civilian atrocities. People like John Jennings reported seeing Massoud's men try to save Hazaras from danger, for example. Are there any reports like that regarding the other factions?

I could be wrong though.

There are reports of germans helping jews in the holocaust it doesnt mean there was no holocaust. I think what youve done is attach yourself to massoud to the point where his wrongdoings are minimized, written off, rationalized as necessary or unavoidable. I understand that he may have tried to distance himself from it afterwards but he is still responsible as are his actions of getting 1000s of people killed by allowing the soviets to pass through panjshir unharmed so they can attack his rivals. The soviets would not have been able to pass their forces. The only way to pass was to make a deal with him.
 
There are reports of germans helping jews in the holocaust it doesnt mean there was no holocaust. I think what youve done is attach yourself to massoud to the point where his wrongdoings are minimized, written off, rationalized as necessary or unavoidable. I understand that he may have tried to distance himself from it afterwards but he is still responsible as are his actions of getting 1000s of people killed by allowing the soviets to pass through panjshir unharmed so they can attack his rivals. The soviets would not have been able to pass their forces. The only way to pass was to make a deal with him.
Well, I don't think those are the same thing. I'm not denying the tragedy of Afshar, I'm just questioning which of the involved parties was most responsible. You're talking about an incident that involved men known for massacring civilians and one who went out of his way not to. As the defense minister, you can argue it was his fault regardless, since his role was to provide safety and stability through military force and he failed to do so (and he himself regarded it as a shameful failure) but that doesn't seem the same as saying he systematically targeted civilians for torture and murder. I actually recall that he had men executed for atrocities performed in Afshar, not that it changes what happened. And the Hazara took the bulk of the casualties in Afshar and they apparently trusted him enough to look to him for protection from the Taliban later on.

But, like I said, I could be wrong and he did look at it as a huge failure on his part, regardless.

As far as the Soviets, nobody is denying that he made a truce with them; but at the time, he was dealing with the Soviets as well as the aggression of Hekmatyar, who was getting the bulk of US funding funneled to him through ISI. But at least by public record, the terms of that truce was the Russian evacuation of Panjshir, not the guaranteed safe passage of Russians through Panjshir. As far as I know, the claims about the fake skirmishes didn't come about until much later, used by people with a vested interested in undermining Massoud's legacy or credibility for whatever reason. And you have to admit, that's quite a large claim that both sides would come together to stage phony battles, especially in a valley cut off by sky high mountains on all sides.

You could argue that I'm being too easy on him but I don't think you're acknowledging the difficulty of either situation. Any Mujahiden opposed to Hekmatyar was in a precarious situation; you've got the Russians on one hand and the man who openly bragged about killing more Afghanis than the Soviet Union on the other. That's a lot for anyone to deal with.
 
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@tramendous I'm reading over accounts of Afshar right now. It might be possible or even likely that all the seemingly contradictory statements about Afshar are all true, in terms of Jennings, Anthony Davis and others witnessing Massoud's men attempt to rescue civilians in certain instances and Jamiat soldiers also indiscriminately shooting at them. They seem to contradict each other, but they actually don't necessarily, just means different things happened at different times in the same battle. That's indeed horrible about the general Massoud brought in with the intention of protecting the Hazara, who reportedly ended up massacring Pashtun.

Well, to the extent Jamiat soldiers and commanders did that, hopefully Massoud really did hold them accountable (as Mohammed Ishaq says he did or at least intended to).
 
Well, I don't think those are the same thing. I'm not denying the tragedy of Afshar, I'm just questioning which of the involved parties was most responsible. You're talking about an incident that involved men known for massacring civilians and one who went out of his way not to.

Now this is quite egregous. That not only was it not his fault but that he also was not part of the problem and was trying to save people while his group conducted a massacre. A commander is responsible for the actions of his forces.


"As the defense minister, you can argue it was his fault regardless, since his role was to provide safety and stability through military force and he failed to do so (and he himself regarded it as a shameful failure) but that doesn't seem the same as saying he systematically targeted civilians for torture and murder."

But he did just that and it wasnt just Afshar but also in kabul in general for example:

When night fell, in one of the buildings where eighty women were, many guards entered, and a mass rape started. By flashing torches the victims were selected and raped on the spot. There were terrible cries, women and girls were
also taking away never seen again. These mean acts repeated night after night. There was no sanitation and soon disease started. There was no food for the first three days, and very little afterwards. Within the two days, forty babies
had died in their mother’s arms in the confinements. The women were kept there for many weeks and the number of deaths increased. Babies died every day, up to fifteen a day.

https://www.milestonesjournal.net/s/Demystifying-a-Warlord.pdf

I actually recall that he had men executed for atrocities performed in Afshar, not that it changes what happened. And the Hazara took the bulk of the casualties in Afshar and they apparently trusted him enough to look to him for protection from the Taliban later on.

Thats a terrible take since Massoud replaced his commander with a hazara who began to massacre and rape pashtun civilians.

As far as the Soviets, nobody is denying that he made a truce with them; but at the time, he was dealing with the Soviets as well as the aggression of Hekmatyar, who was getting the bulk of US funding funneled to him through ISI. But at least by public record, the terms of that truce was the Russian evacuation of Panjshir, not the guaranteed safe passage of Russians through Panjshir. As far as I know, the claims about the fake skirmishes didn't come about until much later, used by people with a vested interested in undermining Massoud's legacy or credibility for whatever reason. And you have to admit, that's quite a large claim that both sides would come together to stage phony battles, especially in a valley cut off by sky high mountains on all sides.

Massoud denied it by virtue of not announcing such a thing to even his own men. Heres what steve coll writes:

"Massoud decided to cut a deal. In the spring of 1983 he announced an unprecedented truce. Under its terms the Soviets would stop attacking in the Panjshir if Massoud allowed the Afghan army to operate a base at the southern
end of the valley.
The truce followed three years of secret negotiations. For as long as Massoud had been fighting the Soviets, most Afghans outside the Panjshir Valley were shocked to learn, he had also been talking with them…Massoud and his counterparts conversed like colleagues…Massoud’s deal was a blow to the mujahedin just “as Benedict Arnold was a blow to the Americans,” one American pundit declared. Leaders of Jammat, Massoud’s own party, felt particularly betrayed since Massoud had not bothered to consult them beforehand. "

The link above also mentions that he'd help soviet helicopter pilots. The same ones that were killing scores of Afghan civilians in their raids on villages:

"Then he came to me by night, and we signed an agreement, [Massoud] would not attack Soviet or Afghan government troops on the territory he controlled, and would help any Soviet pilots who were shot down, so long as we left him alone and helped him with medical supplies, food and ammunition"

From the link below:

http://www.rawa.org/massoud3.htm

"[General Gramov] He reveals that when the first Russian troops left Hairatan on Afghan-Uzbek border for Kabul via land route in 1980, the soviets feared that the passage of the army through Salang valley and high peaks of Panjsher valley which were manned by the mujahideen of Ahmad Shah Masoud was not only difficult but also almost impossible. The army of famed Jihadi commander Ahmad Shah Masoud, Gramov said, could convert the area into graveyard for the Russian troops by only throwing rocks.

Gramov says at that critical time the then Khad chief Dr. Najibullah acted very shrewdly and contacted Ahmad Shah Masoud who demanded direct talks with the Russians. The Soviet General says they immediately met Masoud and signed an agreement with him that ensured safe passage of Russian army through the dangerous Salang and Panjsher valleys and thus onward to the southern, central and eastern Afghanistan."

You could argue that I'm being too easy on him but I don't think you're acknowledging the difficulty of either situation. Any Mujahiden opposed to Hekmatyar was in a precarious situation; you've got the Russians on one hand and the man who openly bragged about killing more Afghanis than the Soviet Union on the other. That's a lot for anyone to deal with.

While i can understand that hekmatyar was a ruthless man, massoud was just as deceitful, self serving and ruthless at times. They werent just accidents or happenstance but the features of political rivalries taking place behind the scenes of the war that would culminate in and be a big part of the civil wars of the 1990s. Perhaps its "too soon" for some Afghans and allies to criticize Massoud since Massoud is still relevant as an anti-Taliban symbol (his son is currently trying to start an insurgency in panjshir) but the facts are there for people willing to dig that the symbol of the world's most corrupt government was not some saint but was instead very much a man that highlights the 1990s civil war like hekmatyar and the rest of the gang that fought a civil war which culminated in the Taliban of all people restoring some semblance of law and order in much of Afghanistan.
 
@tramendous I'm reading over accounts of Afshar right now. It might be possible or even likely that all the seemingly contradictory statements about Afshar are all true, in terms of Jennings, Anthony Davis and others witnessing Massoud's men attempt to rescue civilians in certain instances and Jamiat soldiers also indiscriminately shooting at them. They seem to contradict each other, but they actually don't necessarily, just means different things happened at different times in the same battle. That's indeed horrible about the general Massoud brought in with the intention of protecting the Hazara, who reportedly ended up massacring Pashtun.

Well, to the extent Jamiat soldiers and commanders did that, hopefully Massoud really did hold them accountable (as Mohammed Ishaq says he did or at least intended to).

Yes i just think that a lot of Massoud is sentiment that was created around him. This isnt to demonize him by any means just as its not demonizing that even though a lot of historical figures that we associate with good things, also committed sins and bad things which they were responsible for. History for the most part is full of this.
 
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The TV has footage of these desperate guys falling out of the sky after they failed to hang onto the outside of the plane after take off.

I think the Taliban testing their suicide bomber variation of a home grown, environmental friendly JDAMs there.
 
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