All Time GOAT poll

[Mike]

Maybe Jones did think he needed them to win, but that's not what I think. I have more confidence in his skills then he does.

 

[pankrat]

Look I don't care if anyone believes Anderson was P4P best during his Prime Run as he certainly was a legit choice as was GSP as was Aldo and then later Jones during that run.

But one thing for context with regards to P4P rankings is that whoever rules that at any point in time is going to be heavily influenced, if not down right dictated, by who the UFC wants to rule it.

It was a massive frustration for the UFC that Anderson was such a great fighter and yet relatively few people would buy his PPV's. GSP was averaging 800k and often getting over 1MM while Anderson was averaging 350k.

What you see is that when the UFC starting pushing Anderson really hard as the P4P best fighter in the world (which Dana was saying loudly in every interview back then0 his PPV rate doubled. You can see how your list of Anderson on top of P4P correlates perfectly with that bump.


10/14/06 UFC 64 Franklin v. Silva 300,000
02/03/07 UFC 67 Silva v. Lutter 400,000
10/20/07 UFC 77 Franklin v. Silva II 325,000
03/01/08 UFC 82 Silva v. Henderson 325,000
10/25/08 UFC 90 Silva v. Cote 300,000
04/18/09 UFC 97 Silva v. Leites 650,000
04/10/2010 UFC 112 Silva vs. Maia 500,000
08/07/2010 UFC 117 Silva vs. Sonnen 600,000
02/05/2011 UFC 126 Silva vs. Belfort 725,000
08/27/2011 UFC 134 Silva vs. Okami 335,000
07/07/2012 UFC 148 Silva vs. Sonnen II 925,000
10/13/2012 UFC 153 Silva vs. Bonnar 410,000
07/06/2013 UFC 162 Silva vs Weidman 550,000
12/28/2013 UFC 168 Weidman vs SilvaII 1,025,000


GSP on the other hand needed no such promotion push.

And again, I am not saying Anderson did not deserve it, but I absolutely do think if GSP and Anderson had the opposite PPV buys during that same time, the UFC would have made sure GSP topped the P4P ranking to try and get his buy rate up.

Cool story. First question that comes to mind is:
Is there any other example to support this conspiracy theory, other than relating Silva? It would not be the first time where you come up with a complex full of especulatives, theory....and happens that it only applies when it serves the purpose of discrediting Silva....and in absolutely no other instance. Surprise, surprise.


I certainly find easier to believe - and to prove - that a promoter, more so a promoter notably known for being thirsty of blood, violence and excitement, and a notorious hater of the "playing safe" type of fighters, supports Silva as best fighter in his roster, and particularly over GSP.

I remind you that after dull decisions vs Maia and Leites where Silva played safe, White was quick to publicly take away from Silva the credit as best fighter in the world.
Now that's a pattern regarding White stance/claim on the matter. Do you see?
What you say is no pattern. Is one more example of the absolutely sick exercise of reaching we see among GSP fanboys in these boards in a daily basis.

-----

As far as I see it regarding the p4p consideration, back when GSP and Silva became champs in 2006 and therefore had a claim in this discussion, it was hard to deny Fedor .

By 2007, after Pride fold and Fedor took on the likes of Choi or Lindland instead of top ranked contenders in his division, there was room for somebody else. It happened that GSP got upsetted by Serra, while Silva smoked Marquardt, Lutter and Franklin that very same year, so it is a no brainer who had the best claim for p4p best.

From that point, Silva simply didnt give chance to GSP to claim such status, more so after GSP turned extremely risk averse and uncapable of stopping his competition.

By the end of their championship reigns, there was a guy named Jon Jones who was a champion sweeping his competition (by sweeping I dont mean in scorecards, but actually forcing the referee to intervene to save a man's life. I know some GSP fanboys on here pretend that's an anecdotic, frivolous, almost merely aesthetic difference but no mate, it is a huge difference in martial arts, more so in a champiosnhip fight)

So I appreciate your effort Maikol, but nobody outside of GSP fanboys would come up with such a made up conspiracy theory on this matter, not anybody outside of them would buy it.

 

[pankrat]

Wait, what...gif?

You want proof that the UFC has a lot of impact and say on who rules the rankings, especially ones like P4P and that they do it based on money considerations?

What would you accept as proof, just as an FYI? The number of times people came out of retirement and got instantly ranked? OR fighters like Conor sticking in rankings when they should not be?

I mean this think you call a CT, is pretty widely know by all experienced fans.

Dana and the UFC were complaining loudly that people were not paying to see Anderson fight, and they were frustrated by that as they SHOULD BE. He was not being promoted enough by the UFC and especially to english speaking American fans.

Getting Anderson up anywhere NEAR to GSP's PPV numbers was an immense win for the company at that time when profitability was only just achieved by the promotion.

The main way for the UFC to promote Anderson is not as #1MW as he was already that and had been for years and yet he was not getting the numbers. The best way to promote him is to say he is a better P4P fighter than GSP and any others at that time, on the top of the list. Make that connection so people will tune in.

Just like if I know you are a massive Star Wars fan, telling you a movie is better than Star Wars is a way to make you watch out for it and see for yourself.

Now in both instances it is fine to actually think and believe Anderson just so happens to be top P4P anyway (or that the other movie is better than SW). That can be true to, so I have no issue with anyone who holds that opinion as Anderson deserved to be in that top level considerations for sure.

What I am explaining to you though is how the UFC works. Something I think no knowledgeable fan really disagrees with.

lol what a display pathetic pedantry

Silva was widely credited as #1 p4p best for the period I did mention for the reasons I did mention, by pundits and Dana in particular.

Instead of addressing those clear sky reasons, this guy brings Conor and the UFC bussiness model as a back up for this very particular argument, setting biased and stupid premises while pretending to extreme levels, all filled with unsmokable pedantry...

uffff

 

[pankrat]

You still don't believe and think it to be a conspiracy to say the UFC has always manipulated rankings to make more off certain fighters?

Honestly I think you are one of the first posters I have talked to who does not know that.

Dude, the UFC has ALWAYS manipulated rankings for $$$$$ purposes. ALWAYS.


(does that mean no one ever deserved or earned their ranking, no. But it is something you surely should know can ALWAYS be at play behind the scenes with them).


Tell me truthfully. What is your reaction to this ...'Dana lies a lot'?

I want to know your honest view. Are you aware of that or do you think it some crazy CT to say it?

This is nothing but the classic attempt at dodging. A cheap form of whataboutism.
Like a pro Russian justifying Ukranian invasion with saying "didnt USA messed in whatever country for $$$ purposes?"...which is true, so what

Which in such confflict there is room for that since it is much more complex. In this case we have the lamest version of it: a fanboy in sherdog. LOL

Silva, as Jones, Khabib or Fedor in their respective time, were widely considered #1 p4p fighter in the world in the MMA community - with self interests or not in UFC finances - because of the superiority they displayed over his competition, which often refflected in finishes.
You can save your pretentious whataboutism. Its lame, and pathetic

 

[pankrat]

So what?

What does into being top P4P and the discussions are the least quantifiable of all stats in MMA. Nothing wrong with that but it is true. It is very subjective and very fantasy based as you cannot say truly how Aldo would fight if he was Cain size or vice versa and they could fight at without size advantage. When you factor in that ufc MARKETING also plays a huge part (undeniable) you can then properly value P4P amongst the other things you consider.

Wins and losses, Wins against Top 10, Top 5, Title Defenses, Wins over other P4P greats are all more quantifiable and thus more valuable.

But hey this is a talk about GOATs across the sport, so the only thing nearly as subjective as P4P, so I am not saying to not do it. What I am saying is you need to take it all with a big grains of salt and not act like everyone has to agree with you.

I just realized you are the same guy who was discrediting Sonnen as a legitimate contender s and the MW division as a whole, some pages ago in this very same thread.
You got slaped right and left for it:

You also got slapped

@josh345 , if you want to know how a textbook GSP fanboy in sherdog sounds like, read that post.
Otherwise you are just reading a piece filled with ignorance, bias, and straight up stupidity.



That's true for 2002, when Bustamante literally vacated the belt to go fight for more money in Japan.
UFC just wasnt interested on investing much money on foreign fighters who werent cash cows for them.

That's why UFC was very protecting of Franklin....or Hughes. This is not my opinion. Its acknowledged by Dana White himself. This started to change after TUF1

Around the same time Silva signed by the UFC in 2006, plenty of top talent and prospects were signed as well for the MW division: Marquardt, Leites, Okami, Kampmann, Swick, Belcher, Maia, etc, etc, etc.

Matt Hughes, being champ around the same time, fought Riggs, Royce!! and Trigg for the second time.
Now that's weak.



Around 2007, Sonnen hired BJJ ace Fabiano Pega Leve as his BJJ coach for the first time in his career.

You could be ignorant about this dettail in particular, but if you didnt acknowledge any difference in his ground game from that point in time, you are just ignorant about what you are watching.

It was no accident that since he hired Pega Leve as his BJJJ coach, he tightened up his ground game and went to make two runs to the tittle shot in UFC, submitting Shogun Rua along the way.

Let's remind the p4p rankings during that time:

2012 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/Sherdogcoms-PoundforPound-Top-10-45047

2011 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/Sherdogcoms-PoundforPound-Top-10-36383

2010 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/Sherdogcoms-PoundforPound-Top-10-23166

2009 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/Sherdogcoms-PoundforPound-Top-10-17145

2008 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/GSP-Moves-Up-P4P-List-But-Not-to-Top-12459

Silva was #1 p4p becaue he was showing bigger superiority over his peers than GSP was doing. Against absolutely comparable caliber of competition. That's why he was widely acknowledged by pundits as #1 p4p.

That's history. Those are facts. The revisionist biased narratives of fanboys in sherdog are a whole different, crazy thing.

So this guy who was parroting textbook GSP fanboy biased narratives around discrediting Silva's competition with the most simpleton and stupid arguments you can imagine, is the same guy that now comes with this pretentious stance.

Dude, you are vomitive lol

 

[pankrat]

I honestly do not understand what "narrative" you are talking about as I thought everyone knew Dana and the UFC manipulate P4P and regular rankings all the time to make more money from them.

I am quite shocked actually that you did not know this as I thought even the least knowledgeable fans knew that.

Learn something every day I guess.

What I suggest, is that if you do not trust me, ask some others posters you trust, or maybe start a threat asking others to vote 'Yes' or 'No' on Ufc manipulation of the Rankings. I would even bet you that over 90% say 'Yes' and you win if only 11% say 'No', as I am that sure that everyone, who is not you, is more knowledgeable than you on this topic.

You come back with the same whataboutism? Do you find some joy in this cheap, silly attempt?

Jones and Khabib were widely considered #1p4p best in their time. So was Silva.

Repeating "bu bu but Dana often manipulated thinks to get money" doesn't change the stated above not even an inch. Not relating Khabib, not relating Jones,not relating Silva.

I dont even know how you pretend to be taken even remotely serious at this point. Pathetic pretending if you ask me

 

[pankrat]

But dude, you were the one that laid out the time line when Silva popped to #1 P4P more consistently.

You are avoiding answering questions and I suspect I know why, as you seem to be not that knowledgeable about MMA history. You seem unaware that Dana is known for lying. That the UFC is known for manipulating Rankings to drive PPv's, etc.

So let me ask you this. Were you watching the UFC in 2008/9 time frame or have you only watched video's of it after the fact?

This is what I can tell you for FACT.

Back pre 2008/9 where you show Anderson being ranked #1 P4P, Dana was on the media constantly complaining people were not buying Anderson's PPV's. He kept saying they were missing one of the best fighters in any sport. There frustration was because GSP would regularly do 2 and sometimes 3 times the PPV's they could not get Anderson to catch on with the PPV buying fans.

Do you know that history, Yes or No??

I want you to now do something. Look at your P4P ranking list and also look at the PPV BUYS list I posted. See if you notice anything in the timing of when Dana and the UFC started pushing Anderson hard as Top P4P and his PPV buys then basically doubling?

And again, I think Anderson deserves to be amongst the top P4P all through that period. I am not denying that so you should be less sensitive to FACTS and try to answer them.

Do you or do you not see the correlations?

Again? What you say is as relevant regarding Silva p4p status as a champ just as it is for Jones or Khabib. Period. What else you pretend form there? Can you stop pretending.

I already gave you a chronological review of why Silva was widely credited as p4p best in the mma community, linked to Dana or not. Not my issue if it hurts the fanboy in you.

Anyways after your pathetic attempt at discrediting Sonnen and other MW contender, why are you even keep pretending? It's pathetic to levels unseen before

 

[pankrat]

LOL so you just duck question after question because you don't like the answer you would have to say. OK.

Tell you what. Show me Jones or Khabib suffering for PPV's buys, and then link that to chat with Dana complaining loudly about it, and then at the same time both of them getting ranked top P4P and their PPV soaring. That is your claim, that this is normal. Show me?

Isn't normal that if your rival for the p4p claim gets finished by Serra and the other is fighting unranked competition while you are finishing tittle challenger after tittle challenger you get the credit?

Isnt that the same criteria that gave Jones and then Khabib his credit?

Isn't a pattern in combat sports and in Dana White very in particular, to reward finishes and taking risks?

How is that you dont see the pattern there?

I know it's more comfortable to you to deviate the question but that's not my issue.

 

[Abduction_Noise]

Gracie and Shamrock for me. Those were the days.

 

[MMAATHLETE]

I already stated that Wanderlei needs to be in this poll. Someone needs to get on that quick it's been way to long.

 

[Flammenwerfer]

You might not agree with it, but that's what the public thinks. Silva and GSP fans wont like it, but they're both cheaters and Khabib is not. Jones is still obviously the only answer for #1

 

[Street Bishop]

Polls don't mean shit.

 

[genecop]

casuals..

 

[chinarice]

Lol recency bias is for real.

Khabib isn't top5. Sorry newbs

Also trolling at its finest calling GSP a cheater compared to khabib. That's too funny and so naive beyond belief.

 

[Fioretti]

Ma, the polls!

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

that's what the public thinks.

Problem number A right there, bud.

Silva and GSP fans wont like it, but they're both cheaters and Khabib is not. Jones is still obviously the only answer for #1

You should be banned

 

[Cooliox]

Fuck off with that BS, the page has only 3000 followers on IG and god knows how legitimate a Youtube poll is. They have 1000 likes for that poll, and 150k votes? Sure...


Either way, Sherdog has its own Poll... so take your casual poll elsewhere

 

[Street Bishop]

If I had to choose I would probably go with GSP. These debates are pretty pointless anyway. And lol at voting for a steroid cheat with multiple gift decisions.

 

[Fatback96]

Unfortunately most MMA fans are not here for a long time, just a good time. They’re not exactly schooled up on MMA history.

 

[MCS]

If they make the poll when Fedor retires, it's him. If it's made when GSP or Khabib retire, they get it. While Jones is still in fight news. So, make the poll 5 years after all have retired (but still deal with recency bias for who's retired last).