Arm Wrestling Legend Devon Larrat grappling with Firas Zahabi

[rmongler]

The problem I've had applying this kind of stuff is that no BJJ or sub grappling guy will willingly go to their stomach like this to avoid a pin. Quite the opposite, they're going to be turning to face you and the best I've been able to consistently apply is a near side cradle or half nelson to control them into a pin from side control. Currently working on chaining that into some kind of sub because I usually end up having to bail on the half nelson and going to an arm triangle or kimura. I know there's got to be some kind of neck crank I'm missing though.

It's a two way attack; if they don't resist the spiral ride, then you sink your arm deep for the head wrap half, and choke them out; if they do resist, then you use the shoulder separation to grab their arm with your free hand and pull it past their head.

Probably the best platform for this attack is from leg rides and body triangles, where you can follow them if or when they try to roll. They will be focused on trying to block your arm going across for the choke, but the arm attack can't be stopped like that.

 

[Dece]

The problem I've had applying this kind of stuff is that no BJJ or sub grappling guy will willingly go to their stomach like this to avoid a pin. Quite the opposite, they're going to be turning to face you and the best I've been able to consistently apply is a near side cradle or half nelson to control them into a pin from side control. Currently working on chaining that into some kind of sub because I usually end up having to bail on the half nelson and going to an arm triangle or kimura. I know there's got to be some kind of neck crank I'm missing though.

I agree with you, a lot of the time this is the biggest issue with applying catch submissions in BJJ.

But techniques like this do also work if you flatten your opponent out with both hooks.

 

[ChickenBrother]

It's a two way attack; if they don't resist the spiral ride, then you sink your arm deep for the head wrap half, and choke them out; if they do resist, then you use the shoulder separation to grab their arm with your free hand and pull it past their head.

Probably the best platform for this attack is from leg rides and body triangles, where you can follow them if or when they try to roll. They will be focused on trying to block your arm going across for the choke, but the arm attack can't be stopped like that.

If I'm on top turtle, I usually go for wrist ride spiral ride breakdown and they usually start turning into me, which is when I throw in a half nelson while keeping the wrist ride to go to side control with a deep head wrap half. But that's where I hit a road block. The head wrap half is great for maintaining top position but I've never been able to get a choke or a tap of any kind from it without getting accused of being a neck crank dick.

if they do resist, then you use the shoulder separation to grab their arm with your free hand and pull it past their head.

By this do you mean you don't keep the wrist ride but instead scoop their near arm into a hammerlock chicken wing behind their back?

 

[rmongler]

If I'm on top turtle, I usually go for wrist ride spiral ride breakdown and they usually start turning into me, which is when I throw in a half nelson while keeping the wrist ride to go to side control with a deep head wrap half. But that's where I hit a road block.

You want to create a choking structure by sandwiching your arm between you and him, locking it in with the crook of your chest, and bringing your leg up to shelf his head, forming a backstop and closing the loop. This creates tremendous crushing pressure that you can hold almost indefinitely with very little effort.

...I've never been able to get[...]it without getting accused of being a neck crank dick...

Robert Drysdale is one of the best darce chokers in the world, and he has often said that most of his taps against top guys come from the crank before the choke.

Gordon Ryan is one of the best RNCers in the world, and if you ever see him attack a choke against someone defending by tucking their chin, it's the same thing.

All the best submission artists in the world are beyond this false dichotomy. Pretty much all chokes, when performed in ways that are more effective in stopping higher level competitors, will also have elements of crank, as a natural and inevitable consequence. The basic essence of the techniques here are the same, the biggest difference rather is social context; they don't wish to accept the validity of being stopped by something they are viewing as an unholy 'wrestling move', rather than a move they have accepted as anointed by the holy oils of the helio filter.

By this do you mean you don't keep the wrist ride but instead scoop their near arm into a hammerlock chicken wing behind their back?

In the case of a half nelson, you are pulling the arm lifted by your nelson up past his head, rather than down behind his back.

 

[yetanother]

Drysdale does the Darce as a neck cranks.
Maybe sometimes there is a random element of choke there but cranking instead of chocking is a choice he does with how he locks it.

 

[ChickenBrother]

You want to create a choking structure by sandwiching your arm between you and him, locking it in with the crook of your chest, and bringing your leg up to shelf his head, forming a backstop and closing the loop. This creates tremendous crushing pressure that you can hold almost indefinitely with very little effort.

That's a great breakdown vid, thanks. The palm toward you detail looks very interesting and I need to try this out. If I can get that deep on the head wrap half, I'm used to holding a chinstrap grip but I can see how that allows more space and doesn't close the loop for the choke like palm against your own chest does.

Also rewatched your shoulder separation vid and will try to play with it as well. It's been years since I've tried shoulder separation like that as a sub (last time was cross-training with a sambo guy and it felt inefficient and didn't click for me then). These are common positions I find myself in BJJ rolls but I don't generally go for power halfs like I used to in wrestling because I'm using at least one arm to control other guy's hips in a spiral ride, tight waist or ankle drive to achieve and maintain the breakdown to their stomach. But the more tools you have, the better and I'm open to trying new shit and having fun.

 

[ChickenBrother]

You want to create a choking structure by sandwiching your arm between you and him, locking it in with the crook of your chest, and bringing your leg up to shelf his head, forming a backstop and closing the loop. This creates tremendous crushing pressure that you can hold almost indefinitely with very little effort.

Tried the palm toward you choke before class today and I really like it. It's tough to get it deep enough without starting from lying facing up as he shows at the beginning, but I need to try the set up he uses at 4:05. If it's that deep it's for sure a great sub.

 

[rmongler]

Tried the palm toward you choke before class today and I really like it. It's tough to get it deep enough without starting from lying facing up as he shows at the beginning, but I need to try the set up he uses at 4:05. If it's that deep it's for sure a great sub.

Sometimes one doesn't always notice how some detail that might seem obvious to you is not obvious at all to another. But yes, you can set it up from side control too by turning to drop your armpit. If their near arm is inside your hip, then you go for the nelson choke; and if their near arm is outside your hip, then you keep rolling them into a darce.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Here's an example of a reverse nelson:
Didn't Anderson Silva reverse a dude from guard with this? Obviously, not a rare move by any means, but it was hard for me to think of specific instances off the top of my head. Beyond the Lion's Den and Shamrock's earlier book, The Lion's Den, both featured it.

UFC 14 ish. Either Bohlander or Guy Metzger pulls it off ( a variation of it). But his apanyent was a bum, ha ha.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Yeah, Bohlander is an example of what I was thinking of. Maybe even the specific example I was thinking of; didn't he reverse a guy into that position? I mean, you have the guy in the video doing it to an opponent in guard, which seems like it could be pretty risky and Silva doing it from closed guard, but the Lion's Den variation and what I usually think of is someone catching the hold from a more neutral position and then flipping the guy over into the finishing positioning or forcing him into it by leveraging it.

Oh ok you guys are all over that shit already.
I thought I was going to impress you with my UFC 14 knowledge.

 

[Kforcer]

UFC 14 ish. Either Bohlander or Guy Metzger pulls it off ( a variation of it). But his apanyent was a bum, ha ha.

Hey, I was impressed bro. I used to train with his opponent though, so that part kinda stings.

 

[Flammenwerfer]

Would have liked to see if Firas was strong enough to armbar him lol

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Hey, I was impressed bro. I used to train with his opponent though, so that part kinda stings.

Oh shit sorry about that.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Hey, I was impressed bro. I used to train with his opponent though, so that part kinda stings.

Any stories of training with Severn though? Must have been a litteral bear.

 

[Kforcer]

Any stories of training with Severn though? Must have been a litteral bear.

Actually, I was making up the part about training with the dude Bohlander beat but unfortunately you didn't bite on my b.s.

But as far as Severn, I guess I have some stories, but unfortunately, he generally had other people teach his class and didn't really interact all that much. He really helped me improve my single-leg though. What was interesting about him was that he seemed extremely insecure about his submission grappling ability and some of his students, including one whom he had teach class for him, would rip on how his curriculum wasn't up to snuff because it didn't include enough BJJ or whatever.

But I saw him put that same instructor in a banana split and he actually had some really nasty stuff (submission-wise) and some great insights, as long as you could pin him down on the occasions he was actually around. He claimed he couldn't do an armbar, but you can learn an armbar anywhere anyways. Learning from a world-class wrestler how to use a half-nelson to neck-crank someone or submit them with a banana split, etc. is a much rarer commodity.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Actually, I was making up the part about training with the dude Bohlander beat but unfortunately you didn't bite on my b.s.

But as far as Severn, I guess I have some stories, but unfortunately, he generally had other people teach his class and didn't really interact all that much. He really helped me improve my single-leg though. What was interesting about him was that he seemed extremely insecure about his submission grappling ability and some of his students, including one whom he had teach class for him, would rip on how his curriculum wasn't up to snuff because it didn't include enough BJJ or whatever.

But I saw him put that same instructor in a banana split and he actually had some really nasty stuff (submission-wise) and some great insights, as long as you could pin him down on the occasions he was actually around. He claimed he couldn't do an armbar, but you can learn an armbar anywhere anyways. Learning from a world-class wrestler how to use a half-nelson to neck-crank someone or submit them with a banana split, etc. is a much rarer commodity.

LOL why would you make that up, it's so random. It would make you pretty old but not implausible at all. Let me re-read and see if I can catch some irony.

Any story on how Severn was a freaking beast and strong? Yeah it's a pretty known fact that Severn's sub game sucked. Interestingly he was coined as a sambo champion in his first couple of fights in the UFC.

 

[rmongler]

Severn's sub game was quite strong in fact; it just happened to not necessarily be the sort of things that were commonly recognized as a 'sub game' in the popular context of the time (that is, a Gracie family style of grappling frame of reference); and to a certain extent, Severn himself fell prey to that propaganda.

 

[Kforcer]

LOL why would you make that up, it's so random. It would make you pretty old but not implausible at all. Let me re-read and see if I can catch some irony.

Any story on how Severn was a freaking beast and strong? Yeah it's a pretty known fact that Severn's sub game sucked. Interestingly he was coined as a sambo champion in his first couple of fights in the UFC.

No irony to be found. Just me be goofy, perhaps in part because you one-upped me with your early UFC recall, along with ChickenBrother.

As far as Severn, like rmongler said, I wouldn't say his sub-game sucked. He just wasn't confident in it and I think maybe it was in part undermined by who he had around him. The guy who I saw him submit in practice with a banana split was a guy who was generally pretty successful in grappling and was actually sorta hyped as a fighter, at least locally.

As far as the sambo thing; what is sort of ironic is that he did actually train a bit with Steve Smith, who coached at another gym I used to attend and was a legit sambo world champion. Steve was an absolute monster on the mat and at the time I rolled with him, he had white hair.

As far as Severn goes, the one time we actually rolled, we started on the knees and he seemed to be going fairly gently, so I reciprocated and then suddenly he got behind me and basically cranked my neck to wear I felt like it was either broken neck time or tapping time. So I tapped. Then for the remainder of our role, I didn't really feel a lot of resistance from him. Obviously, I got a little more aggressive, but he seemed to actually let me throw him onto his back, so even then, I sort of moved hesitantly. I was going for an armbar and then the bell rang. He seemed to go from cuddly old man to savage beast and then back again. Maybe if the round would have kept going there would have been another explosion. It was interesting. It seemed like it went from light-flow roll to kill-mode on a dime.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

As far as Severn, like rmongler said, I wouldn't say his sub-game sucked. He just wasn't confident in it and I think maybe it was in part undermined by who he had around him. The guy who I saw him submit in practice with a banana split was a guy who was generally pretty successful in grappling and was actually sorta hyped as a fighter, at least locally.

Maybe his actual game was much better than demonstrated in his matches but let's be real here, he generally looked like he was clueless in terms of subs. He got a neck crank in one of his wins, IIRC, though, but generally his game was sheer top pressure and shitty GnP.
Severn is a legend because he was the first pure wrestler in the UFC and was enormous and was the first to display absolute physical domination, but he was a one-dimensional wrestler. Nothing wrong with that, BTW. This was pre-Don Frye / Marco Ruas (the first well-rounded fighters in the UFC).

 

[Kforcer]

Maybe his actual game was much better than demonstrated in his matches but let's be real here, he generally looked like he was clueless in terms of subs. He got a neck crank in one of his wins, IIRC, though, but generally his game was sheer top pressure and shitty GnP.
Severn is a legend because he was the first pure wrestler in the UFC and was enormous and was the first to display absolute physical domination, but he was a one-dimensional wrestler. Nothing wrong with that, BTW. This was pre-Don Frye / Marco Ruas (the first well-rounded fighters in the UFC).

Well, Severn had an insanely long MMA career. By the time I was training with him, his ground-game and ability to leverage his wrestling into submissions was probably quite different than what you saw in the early UFC. He ended up having a number of submission wins, including an armbar, which he always said he couldn't do. He also beat some guys that were actually high-level grapplers, including Don Richards, who is pretty accomplished in BJJ and submission-grappling.