BEST grappling sport for the modern public safety professional

jack36767 said:
Nogi
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One of the biggest advantages of freestyle Judo is that it encompasses both lapel AND anatomical grappling, of course security professional is going to have to assess the clothing on his subjects before he tries to commit to any particular technique.

If a subject has a heavy winter jacket that zipped up it's a very different story then if they're wearing a tank top or a soccer jersey and quite often your subject is virtually shirtless. in many circumstances a well-fitted hoodie will act exactly the same as a JudoGI
 
I'm not downing Judo but I trained it for 5 or 6 years and not once did I learn any ground work... at all. It was all stand up Olympic Judo style. I got more as far as self defense from my Japanese jiu jitsu background. I started training Gracie jiu jitsu 15 years ago and feel , for me anyways, it's what more officers need to train in for controlling a suspect.. I also have a full contact karate background but with todays society LE can't go around elbowing people and smashing them in the face... IMO basic Gracie fundamentals better suit todays police environment .
 
seatea said:
Because the IOC threatened to remove judo from the summer Olympics if it didn't make itself more distinct from wrestling.
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Judo's pretty distant from wrestling after all their disparate types of grappling... lapel versus anatomical and the presence of submission holds.

A lot of people seem to think the rise of Russia and Mongolian threats to traditional styles of Asian Judo was the reason

After all they could have just created a "Greco-Roman" division of Judo and added to the sport not took away
 
Matsukaze said:
I'm not downing Judo but I trained it for 5 or 6 years and not once did I learn any ground work... at all. It was all stand up Olympic Judo style. I got more as far as self defense from my Japanese jiu jitsu background. I started training Gracie jiu jitsu 15 years ago and feel , for me anyways, it's what more officers need to train in for controlling a suspect.. I also have a full contact karate background but with todays society LE can't go around elbowing people and smashing them in the face... IMO basic Gracie fundamentals better suit todays police environment .
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Yeah, IJF/IOC sport Judo is very much not what I'm talkin about but you guys certainly covered hold downs?!?!
 
seatea said:
A ruleset created in response to the post-2008 rule changes introduced by the Internation Judo Federation to keep the IOC happy.
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Organized freestyle Judo competition is one aspect but I'm talking about a more ethereal attitude about Judo... basically Judo as a martial art.

I remember an old black Judo coach at the YMCA that had a fun program for 15$ a month and he hated competition so he taught everything specifically as a martial art and the whole theory was using lapel and anatomical grips to win the take down at all costs because winning the takedown on the street is life and death

( he was a cop)
 
KingGuerrilla said:
Of all the options out there it's likely freestyle Judo would be the best because it concentrates on winning the takedown and uses chokes lapel grips and anatomical holds. I could see sambo making a run for the title because it's basically Russians judo anyway and you're not going to be doing any knee bars if you're a public safety professional!

With all the talk about use of force lately I think it's a very interesting question?

I used to run a small MMA Club next to a police station and a lot of cops who worked out with us said they didn't get any decent use-of-force training in the academy.

for security guards and Park Rangers training is entirely up to them as you're lucky to get even a Verbal Judo class out of your employer!

Freestyle wrestling and freestyle Judo would probably be the very best combination for the Public Safety Professional.
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I think BJJ. The control, basic takedowns and ability to be proficient both from the top and bottom. Add to that the knowledge of sub defences incase you come across someone who has trained.

Judo overall is great until you throw someone on their head on concrete. Wrestling is great until the person you are versing knows subs. Striking is great until you get filmed knocking someone unconscious and they file a law suit.

If I could only train one it would be BJJ because you can do things like cross faces and knee rides which are horrible but look good on camera. Less focus on subs and more on sweeps, escapes and top position to allow you to detain or leave if it goes past a one on one confrontation.
 
maximus__ said:
I think BJJ. The control, basic takedowns and ability to be proficient both from the top and bottom. Add to that the knowledge of sub defences incase you come across someone who has trained.

Judo overall is great until you throw someone on their head on concrete. Wrestling is great until the person you are versing knows subs. Striking is great until you get filmed knocking someone unconscious and they file a law suit.

If I could only train one it would be BJJ because you can do things like cross faces and knee rides which are horrible but look good on camera. Less focus on subs and more on sweeps, escapes and top position to allow you to detain or leave if it goes past a one on one confrontation.
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I wouldn't worry about a public safety professional trying to hit a subject with a big throw, you would have to be a real idiot to do that kind of thing!

Judo as a martial art IS Brazilian jiu-jitsu just with an ethos of winning the take down at all costs... you can't pull guard in the street!!
 
KingGuerrilla said:
I wouldn't worry about a public safety professional trying to hit a subject with a big throw, you would have to be a real idiot to do that kind of thing!

Judo as a martial art IS Brazilian jiu-jitsu just with an ethos of winning the take down at all costs... you can't pull guard in the street!!
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Then don't pull guard? You would have to be an idiot to do that.

No matter what at some point you need to restrain and handcuff the other person or put them in a position for someone to restrain and handcuff them.

Judo you can either throw them 10 times until they get exhausted or injured and quit fighting. Maybe you could pin them but the ground level is never quite as good with Judo because of the training breakdown typical at clubs.

Bjj you can take them down, obtain a dominant position, secure an arm and begin cuffing from there. You don't even need to know subs, just how to defend in the event your opponent has grappling knowledge.

BJJ is just a combo of judo and wrestling with a focus on newaza. I would rather be average at standing and good on the ground because if I come up against a good wrestler or judo person for whatever reason I at least know I am competent if they take me down. If I hit a big throw or takedown on a BJJ blackbelt unknowingly I just put myself in a great spot for them. Now they have access to all my gear and have an advantage even if I am on top.

I work my BJJ with a focus on getting out of bad spots and into top position to finish from a position I could cuff from. Sometimes that means creating space and returning to standing and sometimes it's sweeps from bottom into side control or knee ride on bigger guys and mount on same size or smaller.

I think you are just someone's troll alt account but thought I would give my personal opinion in the thread anyway.
 
maximus__ said:
Then don't pull guard? You would have to be an idiot to do that.

No matter what at some point you need to restrain and handcuff the other person or put them in a position for someone to restrain and handcuff them.

Judo you can either throw them 10 times until they get exhausted or injured and quit fighting. Maybe you could pin them but the ground level is never quite as good with Judo because of the training breakdown typical at clubs.

Bjj you can take them down, obtain a dominant position, secure an arm and begin cuffing from there. You don't even need to know subs, just how to defend in the event your opponent has grappling knowledge.

BJJ is just a combo of judo and wrestling with a focus on newaza. I would rather be average at standing and good on the ground because if I come up against a good wrestler or judo person for whatever reason I at least know I am competent if they take me down. If I hit a big throw or takedown on a BJJ blackbelt unknowingly I just put myself in a great spot for them. Now they have access to all my gear and have an advantage even if I am on top.

I work my BJJ with a focus on getting out of bad spots and into top position to finish from a position I could cuff from. Sometimes that means creating space and returning to standing and sometimes it's sweeps from bottom into side control or knee ride on bigger guys and mount on same size or smaller.

I think you are just someone's troll alt account but thought I would give my personal opinion in the thread anyway.
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Well I guess I understand your suspicion if there's a lot of people around here trying to push a pro judo anti BJJ message but I remember getting more out of Judo than BJJ for my public safety requirements because Judo taught me to focus on winning the takedown and BJJ concentrated on bottom newaza

its easier and safer to work newaza for the insurance company and bjj is super pouplar thats why so many cops use it... it's a simple question of availability

its actually difficult to find a judo program unless you're in one of America's largest cities and they're mostly based on IJF criteria so what I'm talking about is pretty rare, Judo as a martial art specifically tailored for the law enforcement professional

and the notion that a cop is going to be trying to score an ippon throw on a suspect is absolutely laughable so it's troll like to bring it up... they're going to concentrate on using lapel and anatomical holds to win the takedown and then keep their suspect pinned to the ground until backup arrives or they comply with the restraint and allow the cop to cuff them

bjj teaches you to pull guard judo teaches you to win the takedown
 
maximus__ said:
Then don't pull guard? You would have to be an idiot to do that.

No matter what at some point you need to restrain and handcuff the other person or put them in a position for someone to restrain and handcuff them.

Judo you can either throw them 10 times until they get exhausted or injured and quit fighting. Maybe you could pin them but the ground level is never quite as good with Judo because of the training breakdown typical at clubs.

Bjj you can take them down, obtain a dominant position, secure an arm and begin cuffing from there. You don't even need to know subs, just how to defend in the event your opponent has grappling knowledge.

BJJ is just a combo of judo and wrestling with a focus on newaza. I would rather be average at standing and good on the ground because if I come up against a good wrestler or judo person for whatever reason I at least know I am competent if they take me down. If I hit a big throw or takedown on a BJJ blackbelt unknowingly I just put myself in a great spot for them. Now they have access to all my gear and have an advantage even if I am on top.

I work my BJJ with a focus on getting out of bad spots and into top position to finish from a position I could cuff from. Sometimes that means creating space and returning to standing and sometimes it's sweeps from bottom into side control or knee ride on bigger guys and mount on same size or smaller.

I think you are just someone's troll alt account but thought I would give my personal opinion in the thread anyway.
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Too many people think bjj is only guardplay and completely fail to consider how important top game is.

Being able to get to and work from mount, back mount, top side control, top half guard etc is invaluable in any field where you may need to control a potentially hostile or combative person.

When we say LEO's could benefit from more mat hours in bjj, we're not saying they need to drill guard pulls.
 
shunyata said:
Too many people think bjj is only guardplay and completely fail to consider how important top game is.

Being able to get to and work from mount, back mount, top side control, top half guard etc is invaluable in any field where you may need to control a potentially hostile or combative person.

When we say LEO's could benefit from more mat hours in bjj, we're not saying they need to drill guard pulls.
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it's just every time I lock up with a BJJ athlete he immediately pulls guard and seems perfectly content to scoot around underneath me fishing for submissions whereas a judo or wrestling Grappler tries to win the takedown and considers the bottom position to be losing the fight!!
 
KingGuerrilla said:
it's just every time I lock up with a BJJ athlete he immediately pulls guard and seems perfectly content to scoot around underneath me fishing for submissions whereas a judo or wrestling Grappler tries to win the takedown and considers the bottom position to be losing the fight!!
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You got to roll with the heavyweights, I rarely see any guard pulls when both guys are over 200 lbs.
 
shunyata said:
You got to roll with the heavyweights, I rarely see any guard pulls when both guys are over 200 lbs.
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you got a good point there, my competition weight varied from 205 to 330 and I currently walk around at 300 so we are dealing with a completely different world. In fact I have long made the argument that heavyweight Athletics are so different that we should have a heavyweight specific coach in the bigger gyms.

Whenever I broach the subject people say they pull guard on me because they know they "can't win the takedown" to which I always respond "you'll never win the takedown if you never try"

I literally never "pull guard" but will use it as a ground reversal when the opportunity presents itself as I find moves like the basic flower sweep incredibly useful but usually I avoid it altogether and go for a basic wrestling reversals instead, my style is mostly based on Sakuraba
 
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Roger Gracie is a good example of big guy hw style jiu jitsu that would be LEO applicable.

Plenty of trip take downs and heavy crushing mount control.
 
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