Elections Big D Bernie, shows he is for workers once again. Plan to double union membership

[oldshadow]

Well I wouldn’t have to listen to that guy who came along because I didn’t willfully sign a contract with him.

Unless you were forced to sign a contract or no one was allowed to cut your grass.

I’m for unions as I was a member of two different ones at one time. I’m not for closed shop states, which is illegal but they get around it.

 

[Trotsky]

Wake me up when this socialist dream defies the rules of economics, comrade.

Can you explain these "rules of economics" and how Sanders "socialist dream" (you can define that too while you're at it) defies them?

I suspect that you don't actually know anything about economics, the history of US economic policy, or the fact that robust unions rights and public investment that Sanders endorses created the middle class and began the longest sustained period of economic prosperity and stability in the country's history. But I presumes anyone who generically appeals to "the rules of economics" is somewhat of a tard.

 

[Deleted member 499399]

I’m no

Unless you were forced to sign a contract or no one was allowed to cut your grass.

I’m for unions as I was a member of two different ones at one time. I’m not for closed shop states, which is illegal but they get around it.

Im not sure why someone would be forced to sign a contract. Could you give an example?

 

[Squarechoke]

In this case you are the employer so you make the hiring requirements.

Let’s say a guy want to cut your grass and you wanted to hire him but then a person came along and said no you can not hire him because he is not a grass cutters union member.

So the grass cutter has to join the union or he can’t find work. That’s what I’m against.

Unions don't have to work like that though. Sweden has a strong union culture but there's no cases where they prevent people from hiring people that aren't union members. It's very common to join a union after you've gotten a job since then you know which union is the most applicable and large companies often have full time union staff on site that can help you out. You won't be pressured into joining though, you'll just be shown the benefits of doing so but if you don't you'll still be getting the same wage as the union workers if the company has a collective agreement.

When the year is over I will have spent close to 4 months in the US visiting and working with factories my company owns and I do think the lack of unions there is a bit embarrassing for the company. Especially since the managements of those US companies used union busters to prevent the workers from organizing. This was done after my company purchased them and our management just shut their eyes to it and pretended it didn't happen. The US workers don't earn less money than the workers here in Sweden but they certainly have less benefits and worse work environment. I get why it's like that but it still doesn't feel good to me.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Can you explain these "rules of economics" and how Sanders "socialist dream" (you can define that too while you're at it) defies them?

I suspect that you don't actually know anything about economics, the history of US economic policy, or the fact that robust unions rights and public investment that Sanders endorses created the middle class and began the longest sustained period of economic prosperity and stability in the country's history. But I presumes anyone who generically appeals to "the rules of economics" is somewhat of a tard.

First, Medicare plans are unequivocally less comprehensive than most, if not all, union health plans. I won’t say all because I don’t have access to all. But, if I had to bet, I’d say all.

This means that M4A lessens the quality of coverage for union workers.

Second, it was stated that if a business lessens it’s healthcare coverage costs, that wages would rise. This is in no way shape or form how things work. Businesses don’t operate out of the kindness of their hearts.

Lastly, I’m not against unions. I’m for them when appropriate. I think they’ve lost a lot of their original purpose, but in most cases they are still needed.

I also am FOR basic universal healthcare for all Americans. I’m AGAINST taking away employers being able to provide additions private insurance on top of a basic plan.

5 years ago that would have been called extremely liberal, but now I’m a fascist for saying it. Smh

 

[oldshadow]

Unions don't have to work like that though. Sweden has a strong union culture but there's no cases where they prevent people from hiring people that aren't union members. It's very common to join a union after you've gotten a job since then you know which union is the most applicable and large companies often have full time union staff on site that can help you out. You won't be pressured into joining though, you'll just be shown the benefits of doing so but if you don't you'll still be getting the same wage as the union workers if the company has a collective agreement.

When the year is over I will have spent close to 4 months in the US visiting and working with factories my company owns and I do think the lack of unions there is a bit embarrassing for the company. Especially since the managements of those US companies used union busters to prevent the workers from organizing. This was done after my company purchased them and our management just shut their eyes to it and pretended it didn't happen. The US workers don't earn less money than the workers here in Sweden but they certainly have less benefits and worse work environment. I get why it's like that but it still doesn't feel good to me.

I see nothing wrong with this and support unions done this way and would encourage people do join.

 

[Trotsky]

First, Medicare plans are unequivocally less comprehensive than most, if not all, union health plans. I won’t say all because I don’t have access to all. But, if I had to bet, I’d say all.

This means that M4A lessens the quality of coverage for union workers.

Second, it was stated that if a business lessens it’s healthcare coverage costs, that wages would rise. This is in no way shape or form how things work. Businesses don’t operate out of the kindness of their hearts.

Yes, you are right that medicare coverage is currently less particularized than union plans given that it is set for entire populations rather than selected by union brass. It's also far, far more affordable because the overhead for administration of the plans is a fraction of that for private plans. You are not right about the wages point, but that's because you're misunderstanding and/or misstating the argument. Wages will not nominally rise when healthcare costs are shifted to the front end. The overall benefit that workers derive from the wage + coverage will rise, however, once employers are not saddled with the wildly inefficient administration of employee plans and once, furthermore, employees are less tied to jobs due to entanglement with their insurance and are able to more effectively make employers compete for their services.

These aren't rules of economics, though.

 

[Plutoburn]

Keep crying poor boss.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianah...imes-that-of-the-average-worker/#4fe1efad776d
While CEOs are making 361 times the average worker you think the best way to keep our economy healthy is to keep wages down?
Sorry I’m not buying it.

What I posted had nothing to do with how much CEOs make or should make, I am merely pointing out that automation is such a threat to repetitive manual laborers because machines muscles are so much better than human muscle that having a union is like putting a small bandage on a gaping wound. It's better to tax the gains from automation and pass it on to everybody because at least the interest of the businesses is aligned with the government. And the factories will still be competitive compare to abroad. Rust belt states are called that because factory there simply cannot compete abroad when businesses recognize they can be more profitable elsewhere. Businesses already do illegal shit to make more money, it's unrealistic to expect them to not do something legal to save tons of operating cost.

 

[Squarechoke]

I see nothing wrong with this and support unions done this way and would encourage people do join.

Yes, it's how things should be. If the unions start getting in the way of the workers, like in the case you described, then you have a problem. They are just supposed to be giving workers leverage to negotiate fair deals.

 

[My Spot]

Yeah, you mean while they were already in Union contract negotiations?

Of course.
Criticizing other businesses while not practicing what he preaches from his $600k home away from home away from home.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

You can't go a lifetime without medical treatment either.

You down to make that a right?

Also, what you need to understand is that the union isn't the one with the legal authority to do this. It is the employer that is setting this condition of employment.

The fact that the union negotiated this into a contract, doesn't change that what you are arguing for is legislating that an employer can't set terms of employment.

1- there you guys go again cofusing health care with insurance. No insurance is not a right, it's a commodity.

2 - the employer never mandated that; unions did by having it forced into the contract. And SCOTUS said its illegal numerous times.

3 - You cant have the union ask for it to be mandated in the contract and then say it's what the company wants.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Then find another fucking job where there is no Union. Not every single job will be unionized. If you want shit pay and benefits then go somewhere else.

Couldn't we say the same about health insurance?

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Well Unions are formed exactly that way. They only Unionize if the majority of workers WANT to unionize. If you are trying to get a job there and don't want to be in a union then go somewhere else and find a job.

Ok. So you and I both work for Widget Inc. and the plant votes to unionize by a margin of 175-100.

Are you suggest that those 100 people that had a job with Widget (some there longer than you) should be forced to join the union or go find other employment?

Btw, I'm a member of USW so this isnt some theoretical question.

 

[Sano]

New Evidence that Unions Raise Wages for Less-Skilled Workers

https://www.nber.org/digest/sep18/w24587.shtml

The New Deal Launched Unions as Key to Building Middle Class

https://www.epi.org/news/union-membership-declines-inequality-rises/
https://rooseveltinstitute.org/new-deal-launched-unions-as-key-building-middle-class/

It's almost like unions help the workers.....almost...

 

[Fatality]

As someone who deals with unionized workers on a daily basis, this is nothing but bad news. The only things I've ever seen unions do is drive up costs and make it near impossible to get rid of lazy/useless workers. Thank Christ i'm not American and have to stare down the barrel of that potential loaded gun.

 

[Deleted member 499399]

Ok. So you and I both work for Widget Inc. and the plant votes to unionize by a margin of 175-100.

Are you suggest that those 100 people that had a job with Widget (some there longer than you) should be forced to join the union or go find other employment?
Yes. That's why they have the vote.
Btw, I'm a member of USW so this isnt some theoretical question.

Maybe you should quit that shit job and go to Amazon. They don't have a union but their profits are up so I'm sure they will be passing it on to the workers.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Maybe you should quit that shit job and go to Amazon. They don't have a union but their profits are up so I'm sure they will be passing it on to the workers.

Thanks, but I think I'll pull my last 8 and retire with full benefits. Besides, no Amazon nearby.

There are good and bad to all unions - Ours was bright enough to have some knowledge based pay-for-skills to supplement seniority so I make quite a bit over base pay. So I'm a union member, but they help a certain type of worker more so than others....

Maybe the sorry asses we have here that keep their job because it's a huge hassle to fire anyone for anything except attendance or safety should pull their own weight or step out door themselves. But you don't want to talk about that part of the union.

 

[Deleted member 499399]

Thanks, but I think I'll pull my last 8 and retire with full benefits. Besides, no Amazon nearby.

There are good and bad to all unions - Ours was bright enough to have some knowledge based pay-for-skills to supplement seniority so I make quite a bit over base pay. So I'm a union member, but they help a certain type of worker more so than others....

Maybe the sorry asses we have here that keep their job because it's a huge hassle to fire anyone for anything except attendance or safety should pull their own weight or step out door themselves. But you don't want to talk about that part of the union.

I hear you brother. We all hate lazy pos workers milking the system. Any time you have something good you have people fucking it up for everyone else. But the fact is a pos union worker is making more money than the hardest working laborer at Amazon. Organized labor is good for worker Period.

 

[Richie Madano]

 

[VivaRevolution]

1- there you guys go again cofusing health care with insurance. No insurance is not a right, it's a commodity.

2 - the employer never mandated that; unions did by having it forced into the contract. And SCOTUS said its illegal numerous times.

3 - You cant have the union ask for it to be mandated in the contract and then say it's what the company wants.

You can if you aren't playing the little victim, for the poor little employer demanding the government come and save them from being able to negotiate a contract.

Poor little conservative victims.