Bigger glutes and hamstrings=more explosive power in punching and kicking

[Dexter]

I believe strength training has it's place and how much strength training is base on the individual. For me, I saw very little carryover from heavy barbell training. But I did notice a difference when I started doing kettlebell swing. However, I'm not sure it was because I got stronger from the swings or that the kettlebell swing taught me how to utilize more of my hips when punching.

Kettlebell swings (up, down, forward thrust) and other exercises we call special (sport or movement specific) physical ex (as opposed to basic physical exercises), were developed exactly for the reason you stated above - to teach student max utilise needed muscle groups and relax those that are not needed in given punch/kick/move ;-).

 

[Dexter]

Massive punch power is clearly uncorrelated with leg strength, as Dempsey and some of the hardest punchers ever like twig-legged Wilder and many others have shown..

Bullshit. Legs give the most input in overall punching movement, and it doesn’t matter how big or muscled legs look - what’s matter is their strength in explosive movements. Take a look at this: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/cuban-boxing-fundamentals.3780639/page-15.

 

[Bubblun]

Bullshit. Legs give the most input in overall punching movement, and it doesn’t matter how big or muscled legs look - what’s matter is their strength in explosive movements. Take a look at this: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/cuban-boxing-fundamentals.3780639/page-15.

That's weird to be honest, and I wonder how they tested the percentage of the muscles involved in the punch.

I read a recent study where they measured the punch of males and females... the weakest male still punched harder than the stronger female.

https://phys.org/news/2020-02-males-powerful.html

The difference seems to be the massive upper body difference between the sexes.


Even with personal experience, if I have to bet, I'd say punching is vastly a upper body movement.
Yes the power comes from the ground up, but even in a straight right you merely pivot on your back foot with a little extension on the knee, meanwhile there is a full extension of the arm and a twist of the torso.

 

[Dexter]

That's weird to be honest, and I wonder how they tested the percentage of the muscles involved in the punch.

I read a recent study where they measured the punch of males and females... the weakest male still punched harder than the stronger female.

https://phys.org/news/2020-02-males-powerful.html

The difference seems to be the massive upper body difference between the sexes.


Even with personal experience, if I have to bet, I'd say punching is vastly a upper body movement.
Yes the power comes from the ground up, but even in a straight right you merely pivot on your back foot with a little extension on the knee, meanwhile there is a full extension of the arm and a twist of the torso.

It’s not the pivot that matters, it’s the explosive thrust of your feet from the ground-up. Then goes the hips, etc.

 

[TheMaster]

That's weird to be honest, and I wonder how they tested the percentage of the muscles involved in the punch.

I read a recent study where they measured the punch of males and females... the weakest male still punched harder than the stronger female.

https://phys.org/news/2020-02-males-powerful.html

The difference seems to be the massive upper body difference between the sexes.


Even with personal experience, if I have to bet, I'd say punching is vastly a upper body movement.
Yes the power comes from the ground up, but even in a straight right you merely pivot on your back foot with a little extension on the knee, meanwhile there is a full extension of the arm and a twist of the torso.

Yes, this and importantly tendon power in the arms and upper body.
Explosive fast twitch muscle fibres combined with transferring body weight which does not necessarily correlate either with huge body mass although that obviously helps.

It’s not the pivot that matters, it’s the explosive thrust of your feet from the ground-up. Then goes the hips, etc.

This can be an added element but it's not the main factor.
I think there are actually different means of generating power but it is primarily upper body not drive from the legs - even if that is the theory taught sometimes that is not what is actually happening.

You can see here sometimes very little if any leg extension just massive torque and hip rotation and upper body arm extension at speed.



Maybe this illustrates it clearer. Lets take legs mostly out of the equation and still observe massive power generation from basically just upper body.

 

[Dexter]

Guys, I gave you the research results one of our respected sport scientists did, with all the experimental data available on a large group of boxers of different qualification and styles, from 3rd grade to MOS. Even with exercises and weekly plan used there. In Soviet Union it was kind of maxima about legs participation in punching movement, so it’s like explaining high math to a 1st grade pupil. I wouldn’t bother - train as you like.

 

[SandisLL]

Maxima is also in Shotokan, Wado and JJJ.

 

[TheMaster]

Guys, I gave you the research results one of our respected sport scientists did, with all the experimental data available on a large group of boxers of different qualification and styles, from 3rd grade to MOS. Even with exercises and weekly plan used there. In Soviet Union it was kind of maxima about legs participation in punching movement, so it’s like explaining high math to a 1st grade pupil. I wouldn’t bother - train as you like.

Nice to quote fancy research, but don't let it muddle your brain or block what is visible in front of you.

Research also has many interpretations it's not blind faith.
Yes, plz train how you like.
I can generate very large power with pure 'arm punching' by sinking the weight at the same time. Add hip rotation and it is multiplied. Add a step and knee thrust it is more still.

Dempsey taught massive power punching without reference to much leg contribution also, and I'll wager he is a veritable Nobel prize winner in punching over any soviet or other lab experimental attempted research on punching technique.

But if it works for you, fair enough go ahead.

 

[SandisLL]

Dempsey shifted legs properly.

 

[Sano]

Strength training is good for a variety of reasons, but the increase in performance depends largely on the individual and the programming. Size doesn't necessitate power either, especially across weightclasses. A punch is multifaceted.

Oh, and pilates will hardly improve everyones punching power, nor develop the characteristics you are talking about. Doesn't mean it couldn't be useful for developing other attributes that can help your performance.

Guys, I gave you the research results one of our respected sport scientists did, with all the experimental data available on a large group of boxers of different qualification and styles, from 3rd grade to MOS. Even with exercises and weekly plan used there. In Soviet Union it was kind of maxima about legs participation in punching movement, so it’s like explaining high math to a 1st grade pupil. I wouldn’t bother - train as you like.

If you're serious about researching, you have to consider that a single study isn't proof of anything. Participants are unique, there's methodological differences, it's easy to take out of context, there's all sorts of biasis and external/internal validity issues. Doesn't mean it can't be useful, or of high quality, but you have to contextualise individual studies. Otherwise they can do more harm than good.

A, I'm guessing, decades old study with an unknown methodology and no peer review doesn't end the debate. I'm not saying it's wrong, and I agree that lower body power is important in punching, but it's not enough. There's hundreds of studies out there.

 

[Dexter]

If you're serious about researching, you have to consider that a single study isn't proof of anything. Participants are unique, there's methodological differences, it's easy to take out of context, there's all sorts of biasis and external/internal validity issues. Doesn't mean it can't be useful, or of high quality, but you have to contextualise individual studies. Otherwise they can do more harm than good.

A, I'm guessing, decades old study with an unknown methodology and no peer review doesn't end the debate. I'm not saying it's wrong, and I agree that lower body power is important in punching, but it's not enough. There's hundreds of studies out there.

It's not "decades old" and this monography was used in defense of a candidate / doctoral dissertation, so it's pretty legit. If you have newer information, I'm open to suggestions.
Also, @Sano, I'm interested in your opinion on the topic of level of participation of different body parts in punching movement. BTW, to not broaden the topic further, I'm speaking about two main KO punches to the head - cross and left hook.

Main points
The effectiveness of a boxing strike according to experts largely depends on the following main factors:
1. Repulsive leg extension by 39%, rotational-translational movement of the body by 37% and extensor movement of the arm by 24%.
2. The level of development of speed-power abilities muscles of the legs, trunk and arms.
3. The punch braking of the parts of the body, with which occurs sequential braking from proximal links (leg) to distal (arm), i.e. starting with the leg and ending with the fist of the beating hand.
4. The axis of rotation, which when applying an accented blow with the right hand should pass through left leg and left shoulder (when applying an accented blow with the left hand, the axis of rotation must pass over the right shoulder and right leg).
5. The ability of the leg muscles to quickly develop maximum effort at the initial moment of movement (explosive and starting power).
6. Advance movement of the pelvis in relation to upper shoulder girdle, which leads to stretching muscles of the trunk and shoulder muscles of the beating arm, accumulating thereby the potential energy of elastic deformation.
7. Starting and explosive strength of the muscles of the hands, ie from ability to exert great effort at the beginning of the movement.
8. The maximum speed of the fist at the time collisions (8-10 m/s).
9. Stiffness in the kinematic chain (arm), blocking movements in the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints, which is achieved by maximally strong brush compression.
10. The position of the forearm during the collision to the place hit, which should be perpendicular to the target.

@TheMaster
P.S. As for Dempsey and other famous boxers - watch teh DAMN LEGS! As of using Fedor GnP as an example of no-legs-in-punching - LOL, as my buddy said: it's just ignorance of the basic laws of physics by someone.

P.P.S. If I re-post this "only arms" bullshit somewhere in ex-Soviet striking forums, Western reputation about punching would be ruined forever . It's like common knowledge everywhere... but US?

 

[j123]

Maybe this illustrates it clearer. Lets take legs mostly out of the equation and still observe massive power generation from basically just upper body.

GnP is a bit different, you're on a vertical plane where gravity assists in the force you drop in your strikes (striking downwards vs standing horizontal driving forward). Its a viable technique in Gnp to posture up more (sometimes to the point at nearly standing) and "drop" into your strikes for maximum damage

At the end of the day power depends on the weight you are delivering, legs digging into the ground is like an anchor where you can shift it forward through the chain making it easier to do so. Try swinging an axe to chop a tree without digging in with your feet and weight shifting, its won't be going down anytime soon.

 

[Sano]

It's not "decades old" and this monography was used in defense of a candidate / doctoral dissertation, so it's pretty legit. If you have newer information, I'm open to suggestions.
Also, @Sano, I'm interested in your opinion on the topic of level of participation of different body parts in punching movement. BTW, to not broaden the topic further, I'm speaking about two main KO punches to the head - cross and left hook.

Main points
The effectiveness of a boxing strike according to experts largely depends on the following main factors:
1. Repulsive leg extension by 39%, rotational-translational movement of the body by 37% and extensor movement of the arm by 24%.
2. The level of development of speed-power abilities muscles of the legs, trunk and arms.
3. The punch braking of the parts of the body, with which occurs sequential braking from proximal links (leg) to distal (arm), i.e. starting with the leg and ending with the fist of the beating hand.
4. The axis of rotation, which when applying an accented blow with the right hand should pass through left leg and left shoulder (when applying an accented blow with the left hand, the axis of rotation must pass over the right shoulder and right leg).
5. The ability of the leg muscles to quickly develop maximum effort at the initial moment of movement (explosive and starting power).
6. Advance movement of the pelvis in relation to upper shoulder girdle, which leads to stretching muscles of the trunk and shoulder muscles of the beating arm, accumulating thereby the potential energy of elastic deformation.
7. Starting and explosive strength of the muscles of the hands, ie from ability to exert great effort at the beginning of the movement.
8. The maximum speed of the fist at the time collisions (8-10 m/s).
9. Stiffness in the kinematic chain (arm), blocking movements in the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints, which is achieved by maximally strong brush compression.
10. The position of the forearm during the collision to the place hit, which should be perpendicular to the target.

@TheMaster
P.S. As for Dempsey and other famous boxers - watch teh DAMN LEGS! As of using Fedor GnP as an example of no-legs-in-punching - LOL, as my buddy said: it's just ignorance of the basic laws of physics by someone.

P.P.S. If I re-post this "only arms" bullshit somewhere in ex-Soviet striking forums, Western reputation about punching would be ruined forever . It's like common knowledge everywhere... but US?

I just assumed based on the dated references that it was old. Do you have a link to the original? I wouldn't be able to understand it without viewing the methodology, yet then again, it's probably in Russian so I wouldn't understand it anyway. Again, not saying it isn't good, but a dissertations doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's hard to explain. It could be the best study ever made, yet, as a single entity it would still be inconclusive. That is the nature of science.

In regards to the numerical list, I think it's excellent and covers the mechanics very well. I don't necessarily think that the intervention they used, as far as I remember it, is optimal for everyone, nor that the percentages of lower body, rotation and upper body is necessarily exact for everyone. Meaning, it's a mean value which pools different people into a single number, without considering that individuals may differ. That's one of the first, and one of the most important, weaknesses of sports science literature. It might also show a bias towards a certain style of boxing. What it does tell me is that the whole body seems to be important, with the lower body and rotational aspects having a slight advantage over the upper body. I think, as an overaching statement, that's probably pretty close to accurate.

Just so you understand my meaning, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm challenging your application of it. Not to be an ass, but because science is important. Does that make sense?

 

[Dexter]

Do you have a link to the original?

Sadly, no. That's the only part available online. But the methods of training, described there were used in Soviet\Russian boxing school for a long time, even before this monography comes to life.
It is a pity that you thought that I somehow insisted that this was the only true study. Apparently, this is my bad English . What I had in mind - I diffenetly chalenge the "Massive punch power is clearly uncorrelated with leg strength" line by TheMaster.

 

[SandaKicker]

I remember Burt Sugar saying Dempsey’s coach taught him to throw his left hook with his right hand tied behind his back so he could twist his body into it with reckless abandon.

Not sure how true that was.

 

[Sano]

Sadly, no. That's the only part available online. But the methods of training, described there were used in Soviet\Russian boxing school for a long time, even before this monography comes to life.
It is a pity that you thought that I somehow insisted that this was the only true study. Apparently, this is my bad English . What I had in mind - I diffenetly chalenge the "Massive punch power is clearly uncorrelated with leg strength" line by TheMaster.

That's unfortunate. But yeah, no worries.

Uh, that's a whole other topic going into what strength is, or how we measure it. Power (explosiveness) is different from Force (strength), but they do correlate somewhat. Also, a lot of people think "how heavy can you deadlift and squat" when they talk about strength, which is not necessarily incorrect but might have less of an impact on a boxers ability to punch hard.

If you mean that lower body explosiveness and "propulsive force" equals greater punching power, generally, then yeah I think everyone can agree.

 

[Dexter]

I remember Burt Sugar saying Dempsey’s coach taught him to throw his left hook with his right hand tied behind his back so he could twist his body into it with reckless abandon.

Not sure how true that was.

We do similar exercise 11:34

If you mean that lower body explosiveness and "propulsive force" equals greater punching power, generally, then yeah I think everyone can agree.

Yep. All exercises for different muscle groups, used in monography, are done in explosive manner, not like bodybuilders.

 

[Sano]

We do similar exercise 11:34





Yep. All exercises for different muscle groups, used in monography, are done in explosive manner, not like bodybuilders.

That looks quite interesting actually. Would be fun to try.

 

[Dexter]

That looks quite interesting actually. Would be fun to try.

Another interesting one - 7:50. It's from Kazakh-soviet school (read - GGG ).

 

[Sano]

Another interesting one - 7:50. It's from Kazakh-soviet school (read - GGG ).

Thanks, I'll check it out.

EDIT: Good stuff.

Btw, something I really like in generating power in the hook (outside of more hook specific exercises) is the rainbow slam. It doesn't require the technical refinement of a regular hook, so beginners can use it without messing up their hook technique, while at the same time improve their ability to sit back and down into the punch, while using their hips. Obviously there are different type of hooks though and they don't have the same mechanics. Some hooks you are rising up, others you sink into the ground. This is to practice sitting down and shifting the weight while throwing it.