BJJ and strokes

Grassshoppa

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Edit 12/4/2020 - Thank you all for sticking this thread. I feel much better about having shared the story now that it's been stickied because I feel it will save others. If only one husband, father, wife, mother, child, is saved from this knowledge then we have all done our part. Thank you both for doing the right thing, moving our sport forward, and most importantly, caring about the well-being of others. I've added my story to the bottom of this original post.

Hi everyone, here's some information about BJJ and strokes. This is FYI only, not a statement. If you Googled "BJJ and stroke" a few years ago there wasn't that much out there. Google "BJJ and stroke" now and there's a lot more stories out there. Chris Martin has a series of videos where he interviews BJJ guys who've suffered strokes from BJJ. They're worth watching. Not trying to deter or scare anyone. Be safe.



http://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id/8660482/sean-entin-life-choke

https://www.mdedge.com/fedprac/arti...tery-dissection-active-duty-soldier-due-mixed

https://www.cbssports.com/mma/news/...ced-to-retire-at-44-after-suffering-a-stroke/

https://adventuresinhealth.tv/2019/...rotid-artery-and-a-stroke-with-matthew-jacob/










Compilation of all Chris Martin BJJ stroke videos: https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisMartinbizjitsu/videos?view=0&sort=dd&flow=grid

I think it's time I stepped forward on this. I would like to request the mods sticky this thread for reasons of awareness and safety. At first, my intention in posting this was to bring awareness. Now, I feel it's important to share my story in the hope that it never happens to someone else, especially someone who might be a father and husband. About four years ago I suffered a stroke from a choke. One night I was put in a head-arm choke. I don't remember a lot because the stroke killed 30 percent of my brain. I do remember that night when I got home my neck and head hurt. One week later the stroke hit. I won't go into too many details, partly because I don't remember much and partly because I have PTSD from the stroke and thinking about it sometimes causes flashbacks that I don't like to experience again. When the stroke hit I had a horrific feeling. It was a very scary loss of control and tunnel like experience with the onset of terrifying vertigo. There was a moment in which I felt like I passed through the line between life and death. A brief skip over of the line of death and back into life. I thought of my wife and young son. I thought I was in the moment of death. The room flipped sideways and I immediately had massive vomiting. Fortunately, I could still talk. I couldn't stand and basically laid face down with uncontrollable vomiting until paramedics arrived.

I was transported to a hospital where I continued to vomit along the way. At this point, it's all a blur unless I really try to remember details. I was pumped full of morphine and remained in the hospital for days. I do remember one time someone came in and held up a page with some people on it and asked me what they were doing. Because I had previously worked in a hospital I said to them, "Is this a stroke test?" I think they said yes. I would wake up in the hospital, complain my head hurt, and they would dose me up with more morphine and back to sleep I went. Thanks to God I had no permanent physical disabilities but the inner mental and emotional damage has been very hard and something I continue to struggle with this day. The stroke left with me things I never really thought existed before such as de-realization, anxiety, PTSD, and a host of other inner anguish. I consider myself lucky given that others who have suffered strokes are left without use of an arm, difficulty talking, can't walk, etc.

I should have shared this a long time ago. I'm not exactly sure why I didn't. Perhaps embarrassment, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps for not wanting to remember it. I share it now because I do not want this to happen to you. With every ounce of my core, I say this, you do not want to have a stroke. I could have died and left my wife and young son all because of unawareness of the potential dangers of a choke from a sport. I consider it no different than awareness of CTE in other contact sports, such as football. I could have been left paralyzed, unable to talk, walk, work, or feed myself. I hope this gives you pause to think and consider how you train. Perhaps you don't train with chokes anymore. Maybe you train with them being loosely applied and no fighting against them or hard application. Whatever you do, please take this awareness into account and make a choice that is best for you, your family, friends, and those that care about you. Share these stories with your gym owner, coaches, training partners, everyone you can. It might just save someone's life and I certainly hope it might save yours.
 
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My coach suffered one in his late 40s. Freak athlete in terrific shape, but he's got the neck of a 120 year old woman after all the injuries. Makes you think.
 
Thanks for posting the links hoppa!!

JHoly schynkees!! That's some scary stuff! I'll definitely be tapping early on blood chokes. I think I'll also be a little tentative to apply blood chokes to my training partners to be honest. I've been working on my Ezekiel choke when rolling but now I'm not so sure I want to tighten the choke once applied.
 
Fuck, my dad had a massive stroke ten years ago. I'll be careful.
 
That shit is scary AF. I've had a vertigo spell after waking up in the morning, I don't think it was due to training but who knows. I've also lost hearing on the right side. I've been training BJJ since 2008. I never hold out too long on chokes when they are applied and I think I'll tap even sooner now!
 
as athletes, we often confuse 'staying fit' and 'staying healthy', given that we assume the former is naturally indicative of the latter. we tell ourselves, at a certain level of proficiency, that we've accepted the risks of what we're doing and are doing it as safely as possible.

I'm pretty sure BJJ will end up taking years off my life. My knees are compromised to the point where I have trouble exercising most normal ways, much to the detriment of my cardiovascular health.
 
Well shit, I put a guy to sleep once with a ns choke. He tapped and I let go instantly but he went out immediately after. I hate to think I could've caused serious long term damage. TBH that scares me more than thinking about my own health. And I don't know if there's a way to go lighter on applying chokes in sparring while still maintaining effectiveness. It's not like a joint lock.
 
Tons of old Japanese guys lived to a ripe old age after years of being choked. I'll cling that lol
 
BJJ is a young sport, so I expect that more evidence on health impact will come in the future.

So far, there have been some case reports in the scientific literature:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1742-6723.2011.01496.x
https://synapse.koreamed.org/search...1/jcen.2017.19.2.111&code=2098JCEN&vmode=FULL

In the second paper they also describe the likely mechanism for injury:
"...this particular dissection involved the origin of internal carotid artery, suggesting the following biomechanical sequence: 1) carotid artery compression, creating a point of fixation and 2) subsequent hyperextension of the neck, with contralateral head rotation.The resultant traction would suffice to stretch and rupture the intimal layer of carotid artery distal to its point of fixation"

They illustrate the above point with a rear naked choke.
 
i don't want that to be callous or dismissive of the plight that's befallen these guys. knowing and accepting the risks doesn't make things any less tragic.

Dunno, I wouldn't say that strokes from chokes are a risk that most bjjers take into account.
 
Damn, that's pretty scary indeed. Being an hypocondriac, and a very scared person by this stuff in general, I already feel the touch of this news on my training and my psyche.

That said.. and I premise I couldn't read/watch it all.. a relative enormous amount of practictioner gets their carotid pressed hard on daily bases.. some people from a literal lifetime.. if it really was that easy to get a stroke from a choke regardless, I think there would have been an hecatomb by now.. I think there must be some kind of pre-existing, maybe unknown condition to get this more with more probability than the vast majority..
 
Damn, that's pretty scary indeed. Being an hypocondriac, and a very scared person by this stuff in general, I already feel the touch of this news on my training and my psyche.

That said.. and I premise I couldn't read/watch it all.. a relative enormous amount of practictioner gets their carotid pressed hard on daily bases.. some people from a literal lifetime.. if it really was that easy to get a stroke from a choke regardless, I think there would have been an hecatomb by now.. I think there must be some kind of pre-existing, maybe unknown condition to get this more with more probability than the vast majority..

Agreed. The number of occurrences would have to be much higher by now if such an injury was easy to sustain.
The risk is definitely there, but you would probably need to be VERY unlucky for it to happen to you, e.g. the artery would need to be compressed in a very specific way at a very specific point and then also stretched in a very specific way...

What makes this particularly scary is that unlike other (much more common) injuries, this one is potentially life threatening.
 
Is there not also the possibility that the people that have experienced this unfortunately have a susceptibility to strokes?
 
Dunno, I wouldn't say that strokes from chokes are a risk that most bjjers take into account.

oh for sure. didn't even mean to insinuate as much. most Males between adolescence and fatherhood don't really consider their mortality until they're forced to reckon with it.

i just mean that, from a risk management perspective, we should at least be 'aware' right? most people's version of 'safe' is 'i will be completely comfortable doing this particular activity and the risk of injury or death is in line with my daily experience.'

where like, i think our version of safe is 'if i do this correctly and with the proper precautions i probably won't die and/or it'll feel better when it stops hurting.'
 
Tons of old Japanese guys lived to a ripe old age after years of being choked. I'll cling that lol

You only hear about those guys.

I can imagine many people wouldn’t point to stroke via BJJ or Judo if the guy croaked at home or whatever.
 
oh for sure. didn't even mean to insinuate as much. most Males between adolescence and fatherhood don't really consider their mortality until they're forced to reckon with it.

i just mean that, from a risk management perspective, we should at least be 'aware' right? most people's version of 'safe' is 'i will be completely comfortable doing this particular activity and the risk of injury or death is in line with my daily experience.'

where like, i think our version of safe is 'if i do this correctly and with the proper precautions i probably won't die and/or it'll feel better when it stops hurting.'
People die from freak accidents. Threats that seem unlikely are often ignore (you would get paranoid if you feared death while doing anything)
 
From the ESPN story: "Entin insists the move led to the stroke, that there's no other way the injury could have occurred. He eventually sued Moore, although Entin said nothing came of the lawsuits because Moore didn't have insurance and declared bankruptcy."

Terrible situation for that guy but that's bullshit. We sign waivers at every physical event, gym, club, or swimming pool that we go to. You know there are risks. There's no reason to wreck the gym owners livelihood.

Millions of people train. Millions of chokes are performed. These are rare occurrences to people who are likely more susceptible to vascular issues.
 
From the ESPN story: "Entin insists the move led to the stroke, that there's no other way the injury could have occurred. He eventually sued Moore, although Entin said nothing came of the lawsuits because Moore didn't have insurance and declared bankruptcy."

Terrible situation for that guy but that's bullshit. We sign waivers at every physical event, gym, club, or swimming pool that we go to. You know there are risks. There's no reason to wreck the gym owners livelihood.

Millions of people train. Millions of chokes are performed. These are rare occurrences to people who are likely more susceptible to vascular issues.

Just an FYI, it was Entin's parents that filed the lawsuit while Entin was in a coma.
 
Wow. Definitely makes me want to slowly apply chokes (same as other submissions) - I often go in hard on chokes because they are "safer" but this makes me think and want to ease into them. And also makes me want to tap nice and early if I'm caught.
 
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