Catch Wrestling United

[Dece]

But recently i have had sort of a eureka moment that has brought me here. I noticed that a lot of what i naturally do when i grapple looks extremely similar to this catch wrestling. Im sure im getting the terms wrong but the "riding" is something i have always done. I recently watched the breakdown video of Josh Barnett vs Dean Lister and the way i move is EXACTLY like that dude!

What im curious about is if there is any online resources you guys recommend for catch wrestling. Maybe some instructionals, youtube channels ect.

The best DVD for catchwrestlers against other grapplers is Josh Barnetts Punishing rides. He shows effective moves that works in the modern grappling community against both MMA-fighters and BJJ-based grapplers.

Billy Robinson is also great but I would say 90% of his moves is aimed for people competing in catch wrestling rulesets. Wade Schalles is also great but his moves are also dedicated for wrestling competitions. I would also put Dick Cardinal and Fujiwara is this category but they didn´t put out the same amount of videos like the first two in this category.

Then there´s a whole bunch of stuff on the internet that gets called catch wrestling that either isn't catch or it's simply old/useless & bad quality. For example Neil Melanson, 90% of what he shows in his DVDs is BJJ-based. Neil got some good techniques without a doubt but if people are looking for catch he's the wrong guy. In catch wrestling you lose by pin, so when 90% of the techniques Neil are showing somebody is already pinned it's hard to consider it catch.

Then not to mention these selfproclaimed experts who went to a couple of seminars then suddenly became experts and coaches and puts out a lot of videos. The never had any wrestling background which shows in their online videos.

 

[Dece]

2018 was the greatest year for the modern catch wrestling community without a doubt. Big events in both USA & UK.

2019 looks like it's going back to shit again. Every year, the same week the Snake pit (the original one in England) arranges their international week which ends up with a big competition as the final. Last year it was the biggest event of course then got more attention than the american Snake pits event a couple of months earlier. Joel Bane and his american snake pit didn't like it so of course they're moving their big event to the same week this time. It's really stupid. This time the two biggest competitions of the year are going to be at the same date, 2nd november.

Not to mention all these catch wrestling coaches who can't wrestle. I'm getting a bit tired of them to be honest, especially when they're making money when all these other hard working catch wrestlers don't.

You have people like Raul Ramirez and his catch wrestling alliance, he competed this weekend in BJJ, at white belt and didn't win. He's no longer affiliated with the snake pit because Roy Wood didn't think he could wrestle properly and was still a student. When Raul chose to be a coach Wood cut the ties because he don't want to be affiliated with such a low quality. Raul also put out his silly videos on youtube. This instructional is the funniest, he claims it's an instructional for the japanese necktie. The technique he's showing is the d'arce choke. When people tell him that in the comments he tells them they're wrong.



Also the Lancashire Catch people got active again, although this time they're not selling anything yet. They really tried to look legit but they can't wrestle for shit. They did compete once at a snake pit competition but got pinned quite easy. Long time ago they went to the snake pit, started filming Roy and put out videos of him on the internet without his approval so they got kicked out. Went to Tommy Heyes(Billy Riley student) instead made some money from him by selling DVDs until he lost his memory. 3rd and final coach they had was Jack Mountford who isn't a catch wrestler but a judoka. Now they're back making their own videos again but without any coaches.

I don't want to be trashtalking too much but the problem is when people look up catch wrestling they're gonna find these "coaches" who don't really know how wrestle or grapple. They are stealing the attention away from all those who are competing. Johnny Buck from the Billy Wicks lineage is working hard for the IBJJF gi worlds as a purple belt. His first time with the gi, he already been smashing black belts in no gi. Amin Nazer from Legit Pro Wrestling almost made it all the way to the ADCC. Jesse Kosakowski is 4-0 as a pro with a bellator contract. These people should be getting all the attention in my opinion.

 

[jac6303]

From the outside looking in, I think it would be great if more catch wrestlers would try to compete at the bigger tournaments/competitions. 1 signature win over a big name or even a good match or two with some high level grapplers would help a bunch. Need some new blood besides Barnett.

Imagine if a catch wrestler submitted Lo like Craig Jones, or look at how they missed the boat with EBI which put DDS on the map. Catch Wrestling could get some decent traction if more practitioners would be willing to compete in other rule sets. I mean there are so many No Gi competitions now, F2W, EBI, ADCC, No Gi Worlds, Kasai, Grappling Industries. Its a bad look when your "world champion" Curran Jacobs, won't compete in anything else and just talks shit like he won the olympics.

I'm not sure if he's that delusional or if he's just getting terrible business advice but its inexcusable that he has never tried to qualify for ADCC or been willing to take matches at these other No Gi organizations to prove himself, if he honestly wants to compete against the best submission grapplers

 

[Warwick7]

Im almost certain Johnny Buck competes in Submission Wrestling tournaments and not just CACC, im not 110 percent sure though. Curran seemed to big into promoting no chokes but since then I have seen win non CWA matches with the RNC. 2010s were a rough time to get Into Catch. pre Joshs Metamoris win. Its only been in the past 2 years that I have seen Josh compete in Catch and the rise CWA and other orgs. Youd watch the same tornament videos over and over. Gyms are still rare and I know none remotely close. theres one in NJ, while I could be wrong it came off as differently branded No Gi. Im planning on moving to the West Coast so its a moot point but If I stay here, mighy Be good to check out the NJ scene.


The Sentiment I have gotten is just find a good No Gi Gym that allows shoes. Maybe ypull find some guys who will do pins woth you. If youre good enough, who cares what youre call youreself. Aslong as your open to get lineage when given the oppurtunity and you are humble. Lineage is Important but the true Catch wrestlers are so few and far between.

 

[weirdflex]

Thanks. What about catch in Britian? Did the sport more or less die off?

Realise this post was made way back in 2015 but a good a thing as any to make my first post on

What happened in the UK is different to what happened in the US. Over here wrestling altogether died, with the loss of catch being the most shocking as it was such a rich part of the culture all across England but especially the north. The history and technical richness was deep at the beginning of the 20th century, both through development in Britain which was enriched through the centuries of the Britain being dominant in trade/seas/colonialism allowing ideas from the vast empire to seep in. Plus at the beginning of the 20th century when catch wrestlers in both the UK & USA were having an exchange of information with Judo from Japan.

The things that then followed at this zenith of catch was both the increasing concern by public/policymakers/concerned do gooders about the savagery of catch and it's soon to be inclusion in the Olympic games.
Rules were developed to reduce the savagery, so submissions and pain were out.
And once that form was in the Olympic games it became the staple, highest level form of wrestling competition worldwide. The Olympics is the highest goal, even for US wrestlers despite the audience's at NCAA possibly being larger and more hyped than an Olympic final.

The additional thing than happened in the UK was the two great wars. WW1 and WW2.
This both took out generations of young men, and made those that survived reluctant to participate in a violent sport. So they were unlikely to practice or teach wrestling to children despite it being a long time part of British culture. Not only catch suffered but also the many types of folk wrestling practiced all around the country. like Cumberland & Cornish wrestling.

In addition to that, the 1950s began the post war age of futurism & modernism in popular culture and the beginning of youth culture out right, with rock n roll, electric guitars, sports cars, the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Andy Warhol, Mary quant, LSD.

Everyone, but most especially young people were looking forwards and forwards only. Nobody wanted to practice this antiquated vulgar sport.

Wrestling remained popular in the US, because you never had the same losses in the wars, American culture emphasises and celebrates sports to the highest extent in the world and the cold war, which was mainly USSR + GDR vs USA. The UK was much less significant in that.
Sport became a way for Soviets & yanks to battle it out without a nuclear war.

 

[Kforcer]

I would think there would be at least some people in here who remember Takefumi Hanai and appreciate and were perhaps entertained and even influenced and educated by his body work.

He passed away May 31st, in my book a true legend of Japanese catch. There was a thread about him in the main grappling forum but perhaps it is more appropriate to post on a man who initially learned leglocks through a borrowed copy of Masakatsu Funaki's Hybrid Technique in this sub-forum.

Sharing with Imanari the moniker "Ashikan Judan", they went 1-1 with each other in Combat Wrestling before teaming up to form Ashikan Nidan at a DEEP grappling event in a tag-team match. He had incredibly explosive and acrobatic leglock entries and I'm sure for some, his backward-roll to leglock was the first application of what is now a very trendy and popular move. During his heyday, many Western fans, even those entertained by his style, probably struggled to discern the method behind his madness, but in this leglock-loving era, perhaps people can now look back and see what a technician and trailblazer he truly was.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

A question crossed my mind. Does the "butt scooting" movement gets used in catch wrestling competitions like in bjj ?

 

[miscend]

2018 was the greatest year for the modern catch wrestling community without a doubt. Big events in both USA & UK.

2019 looks like it's going back to shit again. Every year, the same week the Snake pit (the original one in England) arranges their international week which ends up with a big competition as the final. Last year it was the biggest event of course then got more attention than the american Snake pits event a couple of months earlier. Joel Bane and his american snake pit didn't like it so of course they're moving their big event to the same week this time. It's really stupid. This time the two biggest competitions of the year are going to be at the same date, 2nd november.

Not to mention all these catch wrestling coaches who can't wrestle. I'm getting a bit tired of them to be honest, especially when they're making money when all these other hard working catch wrestlers don't.

You have people like Raul Ramirez and his catch wrestling alliance, he competed this weekend in BJJ, at white belt and didn't win. He's no longer affiliated with the snake pit because Roy Wood didn't think he could wrestle properly and was still a student. When Raul chose to be a coach Wood cut the ties because he don't want to be affiliated with such a low quality. Raul also put out his silly videos on youtube. This instructional is the funniest, he claims it's an instructional for the japanese necktie. The technique he's showing is the d'arce choke. When people tell him that in the comments he tells them they're wrong.



Also the Lancashire Catch people got active again, although this time they're not selling anything yet. They really tried to look legit but they can't wrestle for shit. They did compete once at a snake pit competition but got pinned quite easy. Long time ago they went to the snake pit, started filming Roy and put out videos of him on the internet without his approval so they got kicked out. Went to Tommy Heyes(Billy Riley student) instead made some money from him by selling DVDs until he lost his memory. 3rd and final coach they had was Jack Mountford who isn't a catch wrestler but a judoka. Now they're back making their own videos again but without any coaches.

I don't want to be trashtalking too much but the problem is when people look up catch wrestling they're gonna find these "coaches" who don't really know how wrestle or grapple. They are stealing the attention away from all those who are competing. Johnny Buck from the Billy Wicks lineage is working hard for the IBJJF gi worlds as a purple belt. His first time with the gi, he already been smashing black belts in no gi. Amin Nazer from Legit Pro Wrestling almost made it all the way to the ADCC. Jesse Kosakowski is 4-0 as a pro with a bellator contract. These people should be getting all the attention in my opinion.

I think you are a trash talker. Yes Jack Mountford is a Judo BB and Trad Jits BB. But he is also a catch wrestler. He is legit and trained all the guys at Atherton Submission. In fact in the Wigan area there are quite a few people who learnt from Catch from other wrestlers. It was a sport taught through out the Commonwealth, they had competitions as far out as South Africa. So it’s not like Roy Woods is the only legit source of Catch that is still active in NW England.

 

[Dece]

I think you are a trash talker. Yes Jack Mountford is a Judo BB and Trad Jits BB. But he is also a catch wrestler. He is legit and trained all the guys at Atherton Submission. In fact in the Wigan area there are quite a few people who learnt from Catch from other wrestlers. It was a sport taught through out the Commonwealth, they had competitions as far out as South Africa. So it’s not like Roy Woods is the only legit source of Catch that is still active in NW England.

People can call me whatever they want I don't care.

Guess you got me a bit wrong. I got nothing but respect for Jack Mountford and everyone knows that ASW is a proper legit gym. It's the people trying to make money off him, making dvds, then themselves making videos were they can't even show proper basic techniques, and that is not ASW I'm talking about now.

I know there are a couple of old timers left but how many gyms teaching the art is still left? Quite few and if we would count the gyms with old timers around Roy is the last gym. Tommy Heyes quit teaching because of his age.

Mountford is a bit unique because he spent decades learning different grappling arts. I would say he's a better grappler than Roy but to be honest Roy is way ahead of him when it comes to catch wrestling. Mountford is more allround and understands the modern grappling game.

 

[Dece]

A question crossed my mind. Does the "butt scooting" movement gets used in catch wrestling competitions like in bjj ?

No, there's no butt scooting at all.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

No, there's no butt scooting at all.

Nice

 

[thugpoet]

The best DVD for catchwrestlers against other grapplers is Josh Barnetts Punishing rides. He shows effective moves that works in the modern grappling community against both MMA-fighters and BJJ-based grapplers.

Billy Robinson is also great but I would say 90% of his moves is aimed for people competing in catch wrestling rulesets. Wade Schalles is also great but his moves are also dedicated for wrestling competitions. I would also put Dick Cardinal and Fujiwara is this category but they didn´t put out the same amount of videos like the first two in this category.

Then there´s a whole bunch of stuff on the internet that gets called catch wrestling that either isn't catch or it's simply old/useless & bad quality. For example Neil Melanson, 90% of what he shows in his DVDs is BJJ-based. Neil got some good techniques without a doubt but if people are looking for catch he's the wrong guy. In catch wrestling you lose by pin, so when 90% of the techniques Neil are showing somebody is already pinned it's hard to consider it catch.

Then not to mention these selfproclaimed experts who went to a couple of seminars then suddenly became experts and coaches and puts out a lot of videos. The never had any wrestling background which shows in their online videos.

Idk man it seems like every catch gym claims they are the only real catch. How can outsiders take an art seriously when the art hates on itself constantly.

 

[uchubaco]

Idk man it seems like every catch gym claims they are the only real catch. How can outsiders take an art seriously when the art hates on itself constantly.

This issue not only resides with Catch Wresting...but also with Luta Livre. The main issue that I found out with Catch Wrestling is what people considers to be "Real" Catch Wrestling...some coaches feel that the main emphasis should be on the Takedowns, others on the Pins, others on the Submissions, others on the Leg Locks, instead of the BJJ way in which people tend to accept that there are other ways of training, emphasis on different kind of teaching or techniques

 

[thugpoet]

This issue not only resides with Catch Wresting...but also with Luta Livre. The main issue that I found out with Catch Wrestling is what people considers to be "Real" Catch Wrestling...some coaches feel that the main emphasis should be on the Takedowns, others on the Pins, others on the Submissions, others on the Leg Locks, instead of the BJJ way in which people tend to accept that there are other ways of training, emphasis on different kind of teaching or techniques

It's a shame because there's a lot to learn everyone is so caught up in the names and politics that we are killing one of the few American based MA

 

[rmongler]

A question crossed my mind. Does the "butt scooting" movement gets used in catch wrestling competitions like in bjj ?

Depends on the ruleset.

Buttscooting happens in rulesets influenced by ibjjf rules because it is advantageous to start on bottom and stay there, even if nothing is stopping you from getting up; you basically take away his opportunity to score 'takedown points', while you still have an opportunity to get points for your own takedown, called 'sweeping'.

If a guy on bottom were to escape back to neutral on his feet, it would be good for the other guy who was on top to immediately sit down and take bottom position, since the other has given them an opportunity to go back to the situation where you can score for getting on top, while the other cannot score for being on top, in turn. Like a ratchet that only cranks one way.

If a guy on bottom were to attempt to reverse a guy, and the other starts squirming away and moving back to escape, often times, the safest thing for the first guy to do is to stop pursuing and give up on the reversal attempt, sitting back down. One reason is because that could put him in a situation where he counts as having 'stood up', potentially exposing him to 'takedown points' again. But another is because getting an 'advantage' for a 'near sweep' is, in certain respects, even more valuable than actually completing it.

In the first case, if you sweep a guy, he can sweep you back, and then you're tied. But if you have an advantage, you're still ahead either way; if you sweep him and he sweeps you back, you're still ahead; in the first place, you're still ahead even if you don't sweep him to begin with. So, you can simply stay down and not give him an opportunity to score his own sweep points, not give him any more easy or symmetrical opportunities to score by getting up or getting on top. Escaping from bottom and standing to neutral would give him just such an opportunity, to himself sit to the bottom, occupy the position you were previously occupying, and become able to score by sweeping. If you are already counted as occupying the down position, his only option at that point to advance his score would be to pass or take the back; dominant maneuvers that are much more difficult in a systemic sense than takedowns or reversals.

Or in short, the reason you see gameplans involving buttscooting is because it takes advantage of a position of security created by the scoring criteria.

In submission only rulesets, you might still see buttscooting, since there is no scoring reward either way, besides the more absolute structural advantages of various positions. And since many people competing in sub only tend to also be people from ibjjf influenced backgrounds, they'll carry over such habits with them.

If it is pin and submission only, a not uncommon ruleset for catch competitions, you might not see as much scooting, depending on how the criteria for what counts as a pin is defined (for example, if it's any case where the top of the back is flat on the mat, there probably would not be very much; if it's judo style, where you need to pass leg entanglements into side control or mount to pin, then you might still see some).

If it is a ruleset where riding time is scored, then you probably wouldn't see much at all.

 

[Dece]

Idk man it seems like every catch gym claims they are the only real catch. How can outsiders take an art seriously when the art hates on itself constantly.

I dont think its hard to see who is fake and who is not, but yea for beginners they would probably get fooled easy.

People should look at the competitions, there are a couple of competitions every year in both the UK and USA. The gyms who shows up at the competitions are the legit ones. I would also say this is more of an american problem with frauds. In UK they have the big snake pit competition arranged every year at the first friday of november, that competition is what usually separates the fakes from the real ones.

However I do know that Roy at the snake pit got problems with people who just shows up at a couple of seminars then goes off and start promoting themselves selling seminars or offering catch classes at some random gym.

Here is the list of all the legit gyms through Roys lineage:

https://www.snakepitwigan.com/affiliate-clubs/

Its Osamu Matsunami in Japan, Ian Jones(Also bjj black belt) in Doncaster + Greg Crompton and Chris Lomas at the snake pit. Also Ian Bromley used to be on the list but since he passed away his old gym doesn't exist anymore. I think Bromleys old student very looking to keep on going in a new gym but I don't know if they succeded.

 

[Highway99]

I know Matt Hume has a submission wrestling class, not strictly catch but his submission grappling background comes from Japanese catch guys. I'd like to attend that class myself.

But I don't know how well regarded that class is.

 

[Dece]

The american snake pit who tried to steal attention from the snake pit in UK by arranging a competition at the same weekend as the annual world championships in England now had to cancel. Seems that UK won that battle.

Also in UK, Chris Crossan is bringing back Legit Pro Wrestling with a 16-man tournament where the winner takes home 16 000£. 1000£ to enter. Seems people from both USA and UK will participate. Will be held at St Patricks day.

Also Joshua Hightower, a newcomer will arrange a competition in Arkansas. Not a lot of information about the event but he pays the winners 100 dollars.

No reasons for catch wrestlers to not compete nowadays.

I know Matt Hume has a submission wrestling class, not strictly catch but his submission grappling background comes from Japanese catch guys. I'd like to attend that class myself.

But I don't know how well regarded that class is.

I´ve met Matt Hume a couple of times and mentioned catch. All he had to say about that is that he was a big fan of Karl Gotch ideas about training hard and back in the days looked up to him when it came to conditioning. Besides that he doesn't give a shit about catch wrestling.

 

[Highway99]

Well if he has any regard for his teachers like Funaki, or if this message from Josh Barnett himself (from when I asked about Hume's class a while back) is to be believed then he must have some respect for it.

I would say yes. He learned a lot of submission work, to my knowledge, from training with Funaki, Suzuki, and Shamrock and also from fighting in Pancrase and training those techniques and philosophies. He was very much a shootfighting influenced fighter in his time. He's a part of the Gotch derived lineage from Japan.

Josh

 

[Dece]

So this friday the annual world championship at the Snake pit was held. Twice the size of both audience and competitiors this year. Also got a new rising star in John Hattaway, undefeated in catch, won the -90kg division last year and this year he won the -82kg. Only one of his matches went to decision if Im not mistaken. He's a freestyle wrestler and former MMA-fighter with a 9-2 record in UFC.

I would have to say that the livestreaming this year was terrible with a lot of sound errors and disconnections.

Those who want to see the 2019 world championships can watch it here: