Charles Barkley vs Draymond Green
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but he had one of the greatest seasons of all time a few years ago! Michael Jordan couldn't carry his jock! In fact, he was even 7th in the mvp voting. how many players can say that?
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That's raw +/-, and even the raw +/- can be judged respective to a team; this latter more advanced metric measures a player's replacement +/- differential, so it isn't telling you how good his team is, but how significant his impact is to his team's point differential while he is on the floor vs off the floor (the net +/- of that individual).
That's the stat I quoted. You can also look at the best 5-man units on the floor during those peak years. Green was in more of the Top 10 5-man +/- units than any other player on the team in those three years for either the regular season or postseason except only on occasion Curry.
Also, the fact +/- is a team stat is precisely the point. It's a team game, and at the end of the day, every other stat, particularly individual stats, are bullshit. There's one stat to rule them all, and that's the points on the scoreboard. No statistic measures this more directly with respect to a an individual player than +/- stats.
People really need to step away from the glory ball mentality. In basketball you play on one team. If they rotated players to different teams throughout the season, and compiled individual win/loss records, Draymond wouldn't do as well, because he can't carry teams where he doesn't fit in his more unique jack-of-all-trades role. But that's not how basketball works. You assemble a team, changing pieces during the season, but always with an eye to be the best team you can be as a team. It's not about being the guy who dominates 3-on-3 round robin skirmishes. On the Warriors in those years he was a goddamn marvel, and anyone with two eyes could see that the moment he left the floor.
Russell Westbrook has great hero ball stats. Is he a "great" player? Sure. Same is true for Harden.
Is either a winner: a real go-home-and-fuck-the-prom-queen winner? Nope. Draymond is.
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Have I ever referred to Westbrick or Hardcan as winners? Lol. And don't lump me in with hero ball worshiping kobetards. I just see through the bullshit that is Gaymond's accolades as a star player.
Gaymond is a winner the way BJ Armstrong is a winner. He's not highly skilled (including defensively). He's not athletic (for an NBA player). He doesn't actually put up good stats except one season 5 years ago. He's a high effort role player that fit an historically amazing team extremely well. He doesn't win shit anywhere else. He can't make this current team even decent. He is 100% replaceable in any setting. He would be a complete unknown entity if he played anywhere else.
What skills or physical abilities do people think this can brings to the court? Asssists? Lol. He stands at the 3 point line practically unguarded and then chooses which of the all-time great scorers on his team to give the ball to. Rebounds? Lol, he's not even a good rebounder for PF. Defense? He's not a rim stopper. He can't guard on the perimeter except against slow forwards. He doesn't get some amazing number of steals. Again he's not great at securing defensive boards. He's a terrible scorer. He dribbles like a downs patient out of control. He's good at help defense. End of list. And on a team with 3 all-time great scorers that helped a lot. This doesn't even take into account all the negatives of his behavior. He's the whiniest bitch in the league who gets himself suspended in the Finals. What a teammate.
Having a conversation about whether he's better than Barkley is retarded in ways I can't really describe using human terminology.
Gaymond is a winner the way BJ Armstrong is a winner. He's not highly skilled (including defensively). He's not athletic (for an NBA player). He doesn't actually put up good stats except one season 5 years ago. He's a high effort role player that fit an historically amazing team extremely well. He doesn't win shit anywhere else. He can't make this current team even decent. He is 100% replaceable in any setting. He would be a complete unknown entity if he played anywhere else.
What skills or physical abilities do people think this can brings to the court? Asssists? Lol. He stands at the 3 point line practically unguarded and then chooses which of the all-time great scorers on his team to give the ball to. Rebounds? Lol, he's not even a good rebounder for PF. Defense? He's not a rim stopper. He can't guard on the perimeter except against slow forwards. He doesn't get some amazing number of steals. Again he's not great at securing defensive boards. He's a terrible scorer. He dribbles like a downs patient out of control. He's good at help defense. End of list. And on a team with 3 all-time great scorers that helped a lot. This doesn't even take into account all the negatives of his behavior. He's the whiniest bitch in the league who gets himself suspended in the Finals. What a teammate.
Having a conversation about whether he's better than Barkley is retarded in ways I can't really describe using human terminology.
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Barkley is a very good representation of what a 90’s franchise player was. Green is a very good example of what an enforcer is in the current era. Basically an apples/oranges on the court.
Sir Charles pawns Draymond on the mic, though. I think we can all agree on that.
Sir Charles pawns Draymond on the mic, though. I think we can all agree on that.
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Did anyone assert Draymond is greater than Barkley?
The difference is that highlighting how Westbrick and Hardcan are overrated due to their scoring and stat-padding is relevant to appreciating a player like Green who defines the opposite.
Complete horseshit. BJ Armstrong? Remind me...did he ever win Defensive Player of the Year? Did he ever get voted onto an All-NBA team by the coaches? Did he put up elite or historic performances in more advanced metrics of assessment like +/-, Win Shares, Off/Def Rating, VORP, or PER?
No, no, and no. He was an elite shooter: one of the best in the NBA at the time when the skill was obviously under-utilized. That was his niche.
Steals barely matter. That's the most useless of all the major stats. Yes, Green has been a lockdown artist of the key. They used to run those stats on the screen during the peak years all the time: how the Warriors interior defense, particularly scoring against them inside the key, soared the moment he left the floor. Why do you think their defensive rating tanked when he was off? It's bullshit to say he wasn't a "rim-stopper" just because he doesn't put up 3+ blocks a game like a Gobert. There's more than just that one way to shut down that key. He earned his DPOY just the same. This is from his 2016-17 season. Guess who the #1 Power Forward is on the list?
Metrics 101: The Top 5 NBA Defenders at Every Position
He can't guard anyone but slow forwards? Where are you getting that shit? He prevails in deep stats like defensive iso stats, too, even you look at the wing. I remember when people used to say similar shit like how he couldn't guard any real centers in the post. Then firms like SST posted real numbers:
Garbage rant. Your mudslinging has no basis in fact, and this is measurable.
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I'll be honest, i don't follow the NBA like I once did but Draymond always reminded me of Horace Grant with more bitching to the refs and a penchant for kicking opposing players in the balls.
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Same here.
Thread should be Mario Elie vs Horace Grant vs Draymond Green.
Barkley vs Draymond comparisons are an insult to Chuck.
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Horace Grant could 360 an 18-pound medicine ball.
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Chuck bless.
Another gem from him: He once asked his uber-religious teammate AC Green, "If God is so great, how come he didn't give you a jump shot?"
Another gem from him: He once asked his uber-religious teammate AC Green, "If God is so great, how come he didn't give you a jump shot?"
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Basically. Same as Bobby Jones from the 83 Sixer's, Rodman from the 80s Pistons, Charles Oakley/Anthony Mason from the 90s Knicks, Ron Artest from every team he's ever played with, and on and on.
Only thing special about him is that he's a member of a historically great team. The Splash Brothers and Durant are the only special talents on that squad.
I gotta stick up for my man Toni. I think he's been undersold.
1996 Sixth Man of The Year. Third leading scorer behind Jordan and Pippen during that second run. Highly efficient shooter who could stretch the floor before it was even a thing. He could have started easily but Phil knew he needed that gunslinger on the second unit. And Toni was in there finishing games with Jordan and Pippen. Not replaceable.
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I don't blame people for not understanding the nuances of the game and that's what it takes to really appreciate Green's game. To the astute observer can see how much of an impact he has. For those who might not have as good a feel for the game there are advanced metrics for showing how much he does on the floor. As mentioned earlier he has had one of the best seasons statistically in the history of the league.
One NBA coached put it best, Green is a basketball savant.
Honestly I am not a huge fan of his but I appreciate his play. Certainly Chuck was a better player but Green is more of a winner. If Chuck had Green on some of the teams he played for he would have a ring or two.
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if chuck had steph and clay (and Durant for 2-3 years) he’d win as many championships as long as they’re together...
green doesn’t compare with chuck...
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Kinda stating the obvious here, Curry is a transcendent talent, Clay is darn good. 15 and '16 GSW teams were not stacked personnel wise IMHO, Green was third best player probably and they would have won the title in '16 had Curry not hurt his knee.
Barkley is a better player but Green has a better all around game. He is more of a winner. I am not a huge Green fan and always enjoyed watching Chuck. I remember seeing him play at Auburn. He really shined on the olympic team before the draft, I think Bobby Knight was the coach if I remember right. That was an incredible team that year.
