Darren till stance

[Kono dio da!]

Hey guys. Till has a muay thai base right? Muay thai, I know, differs from school to school. But what never made sense to me was till 's machida/conor esque stance. Why does he have suuuch a low and wide stance? What are the advantages? From the training I've down, moving laterally and checking kicks is a lot harder when my stance is like that.

Love to read your opinions on this.

 

[DoctorTaco]

I think he was a kick boxer, not a nak Muay

 

[Finding Deebo]

Hey guys. Till has a muay thai base right? Muay thai, I know, differs from school to school. But what never made sense to me was till 's machida/conor esque stance. Why does he have suuuch a low and wide stance? What are the advantages? From the training I've down, moving laterally and checking kicks is a lot harder when my stance is like that.

Love to read your opinions on this.

I havent' watched Till in a pure muay thai fight, but there are some benefits in MMA to that stance, including takedown defense and a being able to plant for punches and move vs. having the feet closer together. Like you said, it is a disadvangate to the kicking game, both offensively and defenseively, but every stance has trade-offs. Plus, an individuals athleticism plays into this choice. For instance, even though a trad. muay thai stance would be better for kicking/defending, he may be able to get away with his stance due to athleticism, while being able to maintain the benefits of the wider stance. He has a little bit more in and out movement, which is aided by his stance.

 

[j123]

A low wide stance is better for TDD making it easier and more reactive to sprawl than to do it from a more upright stance. My old gym which was a MMA gym we'd use a more front heavy stance opposed to a traditional striking stance (current gym is a MT one, so we do....well that). Lateral movement I found wasn't affected in a forward stance, but due to weight checking is not harder, but slower. I did find it a more taxing on the legs to use in the long run compared to how I stand in MT.

Yeah you loose the ability to check as often and as frequent, but in the long run taking leg kicks from most fighters there who don't hit as hard and efficient as pure strikers vs defending against being put on your back and getting worked from there.

 

[aerius]

Darren Till has a Machida-like stance because he's a Karate-kickboxer and not a Nak Muay. His footwork and movement has a Karate influence to it as well with the way he likes to blitz in on straight line attacks. He's billed as a Muay Thai fighter in the UFC, but we need to remember that anyone who uses low kicks and knees is automatically a MT fighter in MMA.

 

[Kono dio da!]

Darren Till has a Machida-like stance because he's a Karate-kickboxer and not a Nak Muay. His footwork and movement has a Karate influence to it as well with the way he likes to blitz in on straight line attacks. He's billed as a Muay Thai fighter in the UFC, but we need to remember that anyone who uses low kicks and knees is automatically a MT fighter in MMA.

Was his stance like that in his kickboxikg days?

 

[KID Yamamoto]

Darren Till has a Machida-like stance because he's a Karate-kickboxer and not a Nak Muay. His footwork and movement has a Karate influence to it as well with the way he likes to blitz in on straight line attacks. He's billed as a Muay Thai fighter in the UFC, but we need to remember that anyone who uses low kicks and knees is automatically a MT fighter in MMA.

I would not say he is very karate like. A bit bladed but guys like Machida, Whittaker and Horiguchi are VERY strict Karate guys.
He is a natural southpaw but is willing to give up the outside foot to set up his at times unorthodox left straight. He might move in a bladed stance but in exchanges and in striking range he's fine being squared up and almost prefers it, especially when pressuring.

 

[j123]

I would not say he is very karate like. A bit bladed but guys like Machida, Whittaker and Horiguchi are VERY strict Karate guys.
He is a natural southpaw but is willing to give up the outside foot to set up his at times unorthodox left straight. He might move in a bladed stance but in exchanges and in striking range he's fine being squared up and almost prefers it, especially when pressuring.

Look at the way he strikes, the mechanics are Karate-like, not remotely resembling Muay Thai at all. His front kicks and side kicks all have chambering. Punches come out, and whip back, and not in a boxing kind of way.

MT is more than just standing square and being a walk-down fighter

 

[KID Yamamoto]

Look at the way he strikes, the mechanics are Karate-like, not remotely resembling Muay Thai at all. His front kicks and side kicks all have chambering. Punches come out, and whip back, and not in a boxing kind of way.

MT is more than just standing square and being a walk-down fighter

I never said he was muay thai like. He has a lot of McGregor style throws (his upper cut is more of a bolo punch) but hes not like whittaker or machida who land heavily on their lead legs with most power strikes.

 

[weirdflex]

Aside from kicking mechanics ,

Stances affect in which direction you can move the fastest and easiest. And offer you maximum balance in that same plane.

If your feet are in the front to rear "side on" "bladed" stance of karate / tkd types , it allows maximum possible speed and ease of movement in and out and balance in that plane.
But downside of extremely poor lateral movement and balance.


In a fully "square on" stance, it offers maximum speed and ease of movement left or right and balance in this lateral plane.

In regards to punching mechanics , from square stance you get punch power by twisting body for equally powerful left and right short range hooks.

From bladed side on stance, you have massively increases reach of the jab but only from lead hand. To add power and even more reach to jab, you step in like a fencer. Allowing you to jab a whole 2 feet more forward than your reach with momentum of your bodyweight behind it.

Another downside of karate stance is ability to cut off ring. Sure you have the best in and out movement. But to cut a ring you need to go side to side in zig zags.
A side on fighter must be very adept at pivots and bouncing on their feet to create some lateral variation and attempt to cut ring.

I'm not an expert in kicking, but I think a side on stance allows ease and maximum reach of a straight teep or side kick (as it does with the jab).
To throw a Muay Thai style round kick, you need to step outside anyway to load your kick. Or to skip the lead leg to the rear for a switch round kick.
Both of those would make you momentarily more square and you could milk some lateral movement out of it.

 

[weirdflex]

Just watched Till Vs Wonderboy.

Tills footwork is crude and basic which greatly limits what he can do. Wonderboys is in a whole other league, essentially the best it can be. His balance, mobility and ability to strike is always what he wants and needs it be and more.

Wonderboy lost through a lack of aggression and UFC needing to give the Liverpool crowd a home athlete win. Wonderboy is just too nice to be violent! If he was more aggressive he would have bloodied and KO'd till.

Till doesn't even step out for round kicks, meaning they lack power and balance.
He can't bounce or skip step like Wonderboy is doing constantly so his movement around ring is poor.
He throws a lot of very crude "oblique" kicks to the lead leg of opponent. And ocassionally a wild spinning backfist.

Spinning elbows and backfists are another thing you can do out of a karate stance but till ain't no Valentina Shevchenko.

 

[tekkenfan]

europeans stand much taller in general i noticed this when i was coaching in ireland even in their boxing they have a more erect stance

 

[Richard Allison]

Look at the way he strikes, the mechanics are Karate-like, not remotely resembling Muay Thai at all. His front kicks and side kicks all have chambering. Punches come out, and whip back, and not in a boxing kind of way.

MT is more than just standing square and being a walk-down fighter

Till was definately a Nak muay, he's just evolved the way every "purist" has to. You can find his mt fights on YouTube if ya look. Of course his front and side kicks are chambered, that's the only effective way to throw them. But look at his body kick. He's got that "golden age" style thai kick that comes almost straight up, then rips a nice curve to connect. His clinch is also very good.

 

[Richard Allison]

Was his stance like that in his kickboxikg days?

He had a muay thai stance in his mt and kb fights. Square, light on the front foot. He's just built his stance around his strong weapons.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

To clear up some questions on whether or not Darren Till was a nak muay, as most of this thread so far is misinformation.

Darren Till trained at Masda Liverpool from a young age prior to leaving for Brazil.

Here is him in a kickboxing match:


and him giving a lesson in Muay Thai:


He is a Muay Thai stylist. The wide more karate like stance we see from him in MMA is an adaptation he's made specifically for MMA. In fact, it's not even an adaptation that he's had until his UFC days:


There is also a distinct difference between someone with a karate style, like Kyoji Horiguchi and Lyoto Machida - and someone with a wide stance like McGregor or Till. The comparisons with McGregor are fair, as he is also not a karate fighter, he's a boxer with a snap kick.

He's got that "golden age" style thai kick that comes almost straight up, then rips a nice curve to connect.

I should also point out that the 'golden age' thai kick, is just how you are taught to kick in the UK. I've spoken to Sylvie before about my surprise at it being some sort of discovery online when that over here, is just a correct kick.

He isn't a karateka, he's an English-style Thai boxer who's adapted to a more side on stance for MMA. That doesn't erase his history with muay thai.

 

[aerius]

Till was definately a Nak muay, he's just evolved the way every "purist" has to. You can find his mt fights on YouTube if ya look. Of course his front and side kicks are chambered, that's the only effective way to throw them. But look at his body kick. He's got that "golden age" style thai kick that comes almost straight up, then rips a nice curve to connect. His clinch is also very good.

I've only seen Till fight in the UFC, so I went and looked up his Muay Thai fights after yourself and others brought them up. He stands & fights differently than he does in MMA, it's actually a recognizably MT style even though he likes to hunt for that big left punch the same way he does in MMA.

However, I'd disagree on his round kicks, it's not really a "golden age" kick. He kicks mostly straight up and keeps the kick tight which is good, and he also comes up on the ball of his base foot. However, he's not consistent in pivoting his base foot around to open up & align the hips and get a proper turnover on his kick, it goes up but it doesn't properly flip over and rip across a lot of the time. Sometimes he remembers to get his base foot turned around 90° or so and gets a good kick off, but more often than not he leaves his base foot at maybe 20°-30° from straight ahead and ends up with a kick that's pretty shitty. If we look at the UFC, Masvidal and Valentina have much cleaner and more consistent round kicks than Till.

 

[tekkenfan]

some people have funky stances in mma today your seeing alot more side stances guys feel they use it to help defend takedowns better but tbh its actually worse if they shoot a crossside double vs a traditional which most are doing nowadays

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Till was definately a Nak muay, he's just evolved the way every "purist" has to. You can find his mt fights on YouTube if ya look. Of course his front and side kicks are chambered, that's the only effective way to throw them. But look at his body kick. He's got that "golden age" style thai kick that comes almost straight up, then rips a nice curve to connect. His clinch is also very good.

Typically a teep isnot chambered.

 

[StanClarker]

Darren Till has a Machida-like stance because he's a Karate-kickboxer and not a Nak Muay. His footwork and movement has a Karate influence to it as well with the way he likes to blitz in on straight line attacks. He's billed as a Muay Thai fighter in the UFC, but we need to remember that anyone who uses low kicks and knees is automatically a MT fighter in MMA.

Is this right?