Do we need any more proof that punching power is upper body and tendons?

[Sanserif]

None of these attempts to loophole your way out and play word games can cover you.
You are just digging your hole deeper and sounding more foolish, I suggest you keep quiet and hereforth and don't profess knowledge where you are clueless.

-The discussion is about punching power full stop not just boxing, as I defined the thread at the beginning. So don't try limit the scope of the thread when from the outset it was about punching period and there were examples of WC experts given.

There is also signifivant overlap between the mechanics of punch regardless of style. I have also added shoulder whirl for years which is from Dempsey, so it is probably more accurate to say I have incorporated some boxing methods.

-The power from the trunk includes back muscles, abdomen as well as shoulder whirl.

The definition of leg power we have used primarily is separate from trunk rotation.

Even so, trunk rotation involves mainly upperbody muscles in any case not the hip, which is why trunk rotation excercises are done to rehabilitate back pain not hip strain.

https://www.verywellfit.com/how-to-perform-trunk-rotation-techniques-benefits-variations-4690852

"Trunk rotation is a movement that involves the thoracic and lumbar vertebrae and surrounding muscles including:

External oblique, side abs that help rotate the trunk

Rectus abdominis, flexes the torso and spine

Lumbar multifidus, helps stabilize the spine

Internal oblique, helps rotate and turn the trunk

Transversus abdominis, helps stabilize the low back and pelvis"


This would still be less relevent to the main point since we defined leg spring as the leg power, separate from rotation along the mid axis.

But with either definition , the contibution of legs is still less to punch power than the upper body.

You are wrong. Show some humility.
Stop being an immature little brat as usual and actually learn something for once.

With either definition :

definition #1 which we were discussing:
'leg power is leg thrust' - the contribution of leg power is less than the upper body of trunk and arms together.

definition #2
'leg power is leg thrust and also the contribution of torque for hip turn of the torso' (actually a separate factor than we were discussing but we will include it here);

the upper body muscles still play more of a role in torso rotation even including the contributions of the hip and lower body.

As the scientific studies point out, the contribution of punching power from the legs is less than from upper body and tendons.

Legs may be biggest single factor, but still lesser than the Upperbody of the Arms and Trunk combined as defined in the study in generating punching power.

You really like to argue themaster...

I couldn't be bothered to reply in the kind of infinitesimal detail that I know you like to argue in because I have a lot of better things to do with my timeao here are the cliff notes reply)ies:-

1. Nice try but it is you who are trying to wriggle out of your own initial premise. You started the op arguing in respect of wilder and dempsey. You yourself framed the question with reference to their punching power - not womg shun leong or ip man or wong fei hung for that matter. Dempsey ad wilder do not practice wingchun or pak Kua or hung gar. They are western boxers through and through. On the other hand I uae been consistent throughout in answering you on the basis of boxing. So i have kept to my premise from.the start - unlike you.

2. You are not clued in at all with regards to boxing - rhe sweet science of which your two boxers hail from. You admit to never having trained in boxing. What you done is to being your own ignorant perspective to other arts which you know nothing of and pontificating as if you know a lot - traits which are quite distasteful. You pose as an expert here though you only watch video clips I on the other hand have at least been coached by many boxing coaches and trained in boxing for some years and so I have at least some first hand knowledge to base my comments on.

3. I cannot open the link that you attached and there appears to be something wrong with it. Pls check it. In any event from the name of the link it doesn't appear to be concerning boxing at all. Of course the back muscles and abdominal muscles are also involved in turning the torso mechanically. However trunk rotation in boxing is the expression of the glutes and hips much more than the back muscles. This is in line with their role in the posterior chain. The glutes for instance is the largest muscle in the body for good reason. A person trained in boxing would know and feel this when they throw punches at a heavy bag for instance. It also makes sense in terms of the posterior chain because the glutes and calves do more of the work than the back muscles.

4. Who is "we"? I hope you have not started referring to yourself with the royal "we"! Or are you actually a team of people who are all alike in argumentativeness?

5. "Leg spring" is your definition. You tend to conflate your own ideas like leg spring and back muscles are the source of trunk rotation in boxing with qhat the study or the web link you posted say as if they say what you are saying. But that goes along with the lack of transparency you have always displayed.

6. You are a fine one to ask me to show some humility. How about you show some humility for once? I would like to remind you how in the other previous wingchun thread when I overstated something I conceded it. When I called u out on some things u said that were wrong - u never admitted it. But then again anyone who calls themselves "TheMaster" (T and M in upper case, no less!) can hardly be expected to be the repository of humility are they?

7. Call me a brat? U are full of snide insults and swear words ("little f...ks"). Arent you the one acting more like a spoiled indisciplined infant? I have never done that to u. U are a poor advertisement indeed for your chosen art wingchun...

8. "As the scientific studies point out, the contribution of punching power from the legs is less than from upper body and tendons"
For the last time, u repeating it over and over again does not make it true. The article NEVER said that. It is you inserting "upper body" into the equation when the study said no such thing.

 

[SandisLL]

How about you 'mercifully' stop your pedantic little act and learn to understand actual studies before you talk so you don't look like such a dumbass?

Sorry if I'm being harsh but these fucks in particular reek of self congratulatory blind attitude

I might be happy not to get attention form guy like you or one another lad here with 0-0-0 am record and 0-1-0 pro record with chip on shoulder.

My attention to pro boxing is because I'm matchmaking advisor for pro boxing.
Unlike dumbasses like you with chips on their shoulders.
I might gave you guy and you should get him in top 50 % or higher there and this is not forum stuff to talk about this stuff, you should work for this.
I do my stuff with best I could deliver according to best of my ability and with keeping respect level enough for lads, while you do not do this and are thinking that you do have deserved chip on shoulder.
Where you are available for legal, legit sanctioned fights that I maybe can help for you to get something suitable for you? I do not need money for this from you, I hope that you will step in the ring and prove something.


I had offered for you some stuff before covid had appeared in this world.
I had asked you where you are available for legit, sanctioned fights.
Now you continue with this all like you ever are able to put your body where your mouth is, you can't do this and even had ducked to spar with friendly welterweight lad offered by nice gentleman here, gentleman with good rep here for long years.

You normally had not only ducked my question where you are available to contact ( this was before covid had appeared there ) and also offers from other members and a lot of them.
This is about your dick level here.
LoL.

 

[rmongler]

TheMaster be like: 'it is possible for me to see with one eye; therefore, it is preferable for me to see with one eye.'

 

[ironkhan57]

You really like to argue themaster...

I couldn't be bothered to reply in the kind of infinitesimal detail that I know you like to argue in because I have a lot of better things to do with my timeao here are the cliff notes reply)ies:-

1. Nice try but it is you who are trying to wriggle out of your own initial premise. You started the op arguing in respect of wilder and dempsey. You yourself framed the question with reference to their punching power - not womg shun leong or ip man or wong fei hung for that matter. Dempsey ad wilder do not practice wingchun or pak Kua or hung gar. They are western boxers through and through. On the other hand I uae been consistent throughout in answering you on the basis of boxing. So i have kept to my premise from.the start - unlike you.

2. You are not clued in at all with regards to boxing - rhe sweet science of which your two boxers hail from. You admit to never having trained in boxing. What you done is to being your own ignorant perspective to other arts which you know nothing of and pontificating as if you know a lot - traits which are quite distasteful. You pose as an expert here though you only watch video clips I on the other hand have at least been coached by many boxing coaches and trained in boxing for some years and so I have at least some first hand knowledge to base my comments on.

3. I cannot open the link that you attached and there appears to be something wrong with it. Pls check it. In any event from the name of the link it doesn't appear to be concerning boxing at all. Of course the back muscles and abdominal muscles are also involved in turning the torso mechanically. However trunk rotation in boxing is the expression of the glutes and hips much more than the back muscles. This is in line with their role in the posterior chain. The glutes for instance is the largest muscle in the body for good reason. A person trained in boxing would know and feel this when they throw punches at a heavy bag for instance. It also makes sense in terms of the posterior chain because the glutes and calves do more of the work than the back muscles.

4. Who is "we"? I hope you have not started referring to yourself with the royal "we"! Or are you actually a team of people who are all alike in argumentativeness?

5. "Leg spring" is your definition. You tend to conflate your own ideas like leg spring and back muscles are the source of trunk rotation in boxing with qhat the study or the web link you posted say as if they say what you are saying. But that goes along with the lack of transparency you have always displayed.

6. You are a fine one to ask me to show some humility. How about you show some humility for once? I would like to remind you how in the other previous wingchun thread when I overstated something I conceded it. When I called u out on some things u said that were wrong - u never admitted it. But then again anyone who calls themselves "TheMaster" (T and M in upper case, no less!) can hardly be expected to be the repository of humility are they?

7. Call me a brat? U are full of snide insults and swear words ("little f...ks"). Arent you the one acting more like a spoiled indisciplined infant? I have never done that to u. U are a poor advertisement indeed for your chosen art wingchun...

8. "As the scientific studies point out, the contribution of punching power from the legs is less than from upper body and tendons"
For the last time, u repeating it over and over again does not make it true. The article NEVER said that. It is you inserting "upper body" into the equation when the study said no such thing.

If I could like this I would. You just put @TheMaster in his place and the reality is he’s not going to respond cuz he’s arrogant and the arrogant never admit they’re wrong. Nor do they respond to certain shit for whatever reason.

 

[TheMaster]

the most likely biggest factor behind where wilder and dempsey are getting their power from are their allegedly stick thin legs...

This is incorrect, and yes you are trying to wriggle out of your initial position.

Leg thrust is not the primary means of power generation in punching power.

This is clear from the studies which attribute a lower percentage contribution from legs than the upper body mechanisms.


Your attempt to salvage your argument is to now claim that torso rotation primarily 'comes from the legs', which is false.

I also separated from the beginning leg thrust (leg power) from waist or torso rotation. The latter is a primarily upper body driven motion in any case, but regardless of contribution any from hip, the primary definition of leg power we including you have been using is of leg thrust/leg spring.

And it is very clear that while being the biggest single factor , legs are still lower than upper body contributions overall to punching power.

 

[rmongler]

Correct torso rotation does in fact depend on the legs.

The hips can be moved with a degree of independence from the upper body, and vice versa. Which can be a problem with regards to energy leakage. A good punch with a good kinetic chain will have these elements working as a single unit, the spine 'linked' with the hips as the body turns in unison.

You can feel this yourself with some very simple tests. In your stance by a corner, mime a hook onto the corner, and try pushing to complete the hook through it; feel what muscles are activating when you do. Likewise, in your stance in front of a wall, mime a jab or cross onto the wall, and try to push your fist through it; feel what muscles are activating when you do.

Incidentally, exercises like these are all outlined by Champ Thomas in his most excellent compendium on pugilism, 'How To Be An Asswhipping Boxer'. I highly recommend it.

 

[Sanserif]

This is incorrect, and yes you are trying to wriggle out of your initial position.

Leg thrust is not the primary means of power generation in punching power.

This is clear from the studies which attribute a lower percentage contribution from legs than the upper body mechanisms.


Your attempt to salvage your argument is to now claim that torso rotation primarily 'comes from the legs', which is false.

I also separated from the beginning leg thrust (leg power) from waist or torso rotation. The latter is a primarily upper body driven motion in any case, but regardless of contribution any from hip, the primary definition of leg power we including you have been using is of leg thrust/leg spring.

And it is very clear that while being the biggest single factor , legs are still lower than upper body contributions overall to punching power.

You do realise that u are just repeating the same things for probably the second or third round despite the fact that I have already refuted u the first time...

You refuse to acknowledge u r assuming that trunk rotation for boxing is driven by back muscles and that back muscles are considered upper body despite my points to the contrary.

Anyway this is par for the course for u as u would rather do this ad nauseum than admit any possibility u could be wrong...

This is my prediction for this thread if it has not happened already (have not bothered to read through every post of themaster on this thread). Sooner or later themaster will segue from a discussion of upper body and tendon power dynamics into why wingchun is still relevant for today due to these factors and why wingchun has muh to teach boxers and everybody who punches. LOL The reason for this is because themaster does this and it is usually his raison d' etre for almost every thread he starts...

If I could like this I would. You just put @TheMaster in his place and the reality is he’s not going to respond cuz he’s arrogant and the arrogant never admit they’re wrong. Nor do they respond to certain shit for whatever reason.

Alas themaster will go around in circles repeating the same thing despite being refuted like the evereadybunny - except he won't run out of battery power!

 

[Sanserif]

Correct torso rotation does in fact depend on the legs.

The hips can be moved with a degree of independence from the upper body, and vice versa. A good punch with a good kinetic chain will have these elements working as a single unit though, the spine 'linked' with the hips as the whole body turns in unison.

You can feel this yourself with some very simple tests. in your stance by a corner, mime a hook onto the corner, and try pushing to complete the hook through it; feel what muscles are activating when you do. Likewise, in your stance in front of a wall, mime a jab or cross onto the wall, and try to push your fist through it; feel what muscles are activating when you do.

Incidentally, exercises like these are all outlined by Champ Thomas in his most excellent compendium on pugilism, 'How To Be An Asswhipping Boxer'. I highly recommend it.

Agreed! In fact all punches are primarily driven by the posterior chain paricularly the gluteus hamstrings and calves in the delivery and the task of the upper body is primarily to stick the punch out and hold it there. This is seen not only in leg thrust which moves the lower body into the punch an d whiplashes the upper body to follow the lower body thus causing the punch to slam into the target with the force of the momentum of the entire body (dexter has translated from the Russian a useful study that shows this) but also drives from the floor the rotation of the trunk.

People who just start their training tend to use almost wholly arm power and then their core muscles before realising the integral part played by the lower body usually later. But that is why old school boxers like Joe Louis never bothered to train weights for their upper bodies - the real muscles driving the punches were a lot lower down!

This can be tested with hooks into the heavy bag - if one just throws the punch by merely trying to isolate the back muscles by eg sitting with one's feet stretched out on a bench vs driving the hook into the bag from the hips - the huge power difference is apparent.

Thanks for the reference to the book - I had never heard of it but reading the blurb it seems Thomas claims to hv taken on 20 challengers and easily beaten them at the age of nearly 60. Very impressive if that is the case...

 

[listrahtes]

For the last time, u repeating it over and over again does not make it true. The article NEVER said that. It is you inserting "upper body" into the equation when the study said no such thing. .

Forget it,we all tried at some point.Every thread goes down like that. First there is an agenda, then he selects the appropriate data and interpretes in a way that it fits which all leads back to WC marketing. All that without practical skills or experience. Its like criticizing string theory without knowing basic algebra.

.Thats why his opinion never changes from start to end of a thread no matter the arguments. One or two training sesions in how to punch would be enough. In the end we understand by learning from others or in ma by fghting, not by talking.
.its just a never ending circle jerk

 

[TheMaster]

The hips can be moved with a degree of independence from the upper body, and vice versa. A good punch with a good kinetic chain will have these elements working as a single unit though, the spine 'linked' with the hips as the whole body turns in unison.

You can feel this yourself with some very simple tests. in your stance by a corner, mime a hook onto the corner, and try pushing to complete the hook through it; feel what muscles are activating when you do. Likewise, in your stance in front of a wall, mime a jab or cross onto the wall, and try to push your fist through it; feel what muscles are activating when you do.

Incidentally, exercises like these are all outlined by Champ Thomas in his most excellent compendium on pugilism, 'How To Be An Asswhipping Boxer'. I highly recommend it.

Yes I partly agree

Both the core and the hip are needed for trunk rotation. But it is primarily the core, of course they all need to be connected in the kinetic chain.

Even on the excercise you describe, the entire core,abs and lower back muscles are engaged as well as the glutes and hip. Therefore in no way can it be said to depend on the hip but is the intersection of both upper and lower body.
It also depends on the phase of the punch. Try the exercise leaning forward or back or at different points and you will feel at some points it is almost all core which is flexed and other times it involves the hips and glutes more as well.

When we talk about leg power we are therefore primariliy referring to leg thrust which I have said from the beginning not trunk rotation.

 

[Sanserif]

Yes I partly agree

Both the core and the hip are needed for trunk rotation. But it is primarily the core, of course they all need to be connected in the kinetic chain.

Even on the excercise you describe, the entire core,abs and lower back muscles are engaged as well as the glutes and hip. Therefore in no way can it be said to depend on the hip but is the intersection of both upper and lower body.
It also depends on the phase of the punch. Try the exercise leaning forward or back or at different points and you will feel at some points it is almost all core which is flexed and other times it involves the hips and glutes more as well.

When we talk about leg power we are therefore primariliy referring to leg thrust which I have said from the beginning not trunk rotation.

Wrong - the ppwer of the hips and legs are primarily behind the rotational aspect driving the punch. You can test this out with the experiment that I have suggested above. There is a big difference between rotating your torso to take a look at the McLaren sports car that just shoy past you at 80 miles per hour and rotating your trunk to drive a punch!

The problem though is that u probably don't even know how to throw a proper boxing hook LOL that is what I found the last time I trained with some WSL students...if u don't know how to engage your hips and feet as part of the kinetic chain to power your trunk rotation then this experiment will be lost on you...since u have never trained boxing before this result would not be surprising.

 

[TheMaster]

Wrong - the ppwer of the hips and legs are primarily behind the rotational aspect driving the punch. You can test this out with the experiment that I have suggested above. There is a big difference between rotating your torso to take a look at the McLaren sports car that just shoy past you at 80 miles per hour and rotating your trunk to drive a punch!

The problem though is that u probably don't even know how to throw a proper boxing hook LOL that is what I found the last time I trained with some WSL students...if u don't know how to engage your hips and feet as part of the kinetic chain to power your trunk rotation then this experiment will be lost on you...since u have never trained boxing before this result would not be surprising.

No, this is incorrect.
Both the core and hip are involved in rotational force. Find me some evidence saying trunk rotation is primarily lower body...I have provided links showing the muscles involved in trunk rotation which are primarily from the core with support from hip.

In any case, to come back to my original statements as this argument is just your attempt to save face.

No matter how you try to spin it around and play semantic games the studies so far cited even by you, are that the legs contribute a smaller percentage than the arms and trunk combined to punching power.

 

[rmongler]

Yes I partly agree

Both the core and the hip are needed for trunk rotation. But it is primarily the core, of course they all need to be connected in the kinetic chain.

Even on the excercise you describe, the entire core,abs and lower back muscles are engaged as well as the glutes and hip. Therefore in no way can it be said to depend on the hip but is the intersection of both upper and lower body.
It also depends on the phase of the punch. Try the exercise leaning forward or back or at different points and you will feel at some points it is almost all core which is flexed and other times it involves the hips and glutes more as well.

When we talk about leg power we are therefore primariliy referring to leg thrust which I have said from the beginning not trunk rotation.

Trying to rotate the torso independent of the hips is weaker however. (And will cost you later in life from slipped discs.)

The basic disconnect here is you speak of one element, while most of the folks you are arguing with are speaking of each of the elements together as a whole.

One punches people with their hands, not their feet. Anyone with eyes to see could say that upper body strength can make an impact. But evidently, it takes a genius to see how to reach levels beyond that. And while many others may not be geniuses, they can benefit from the experience of genius as it meets with reality through it's growth in traditions.

Coaches who know what they are talking about emphasize the legs because it is a cue. Your client doesn't need help focusing on his hands, he needs help to focus beyond his hands, so he can become something more than a pillow-fisted arm puncher.

 

[Sanserif]

No, this is incorrect.
Both the core and hip are involved in rotational force. Find me some evidence saying trunk rotation is primarily lower body...I have provided links showing the muscles involved in trunk rotation which are primarily from the core with support from hip.

In any case, to come back to my original statements as this argument is just your attempt to save face.

No matter how you try to spin it around and play semantic games the studies so far cited even by you, are that the legs contribute a smaller percentage than the arms and trunk combined to punching power.

Dude u try to act as if u have a gotcha on me but you have got no authoritative source to say that trunk rotation driving a punch is predominantly driven by back muscles. The study article says trunk rotation, it doesn't say back muscles. You merely cited a link i couldn't even open and from the name of the link appears to be a general health website whih would likely refer to the back muscles rotsting the vertebrae of the back.

The only person trying to save face is you. I nailed u to the wall with my point that u yourself defined this entire thread with ref to two boxers and therefore the discussion is about boxing punching technique and u have been backpedallling ever since.

As I said already- big big big difference between turning your torso to look at something and turning your trunk into a punch. The problem is that u have never thrown a proper boxing punch before because u simply don't know how. That is why you won't or cannt do the experiment I suggested.

Every person learning boxing for real from proper coaches knows that what u are spouting here is nonsense. The level of our grasp and mastery of technique limits our knowledge even more than our knowledge limits our grasp and mastery of technique because boxing is a learned skill - not a matter of slides and clinical double blind studies and Internet forum theories. That is why boxing coaches always tell u shut up and stop asking so many questions about why do we do this and that and just do it the way rhy tell u to do it and following instructions when they correct our technique. The rationale for why it is done that way will Dawn on us later - or even if it doesn't it doesn't matter because we are doing it anyway.

Anyway enough wasting of time forum posting on this topic. I will just leave with the observation to themaster that far from justifying wingchun his understanding of upper body being primary engine of punching actually undercuts wingchun also because the legs and lower body is the actual driver behind the tendon power. Wc always says tendon power not muscle power and it is in fsct the only art I know of that actualy preaches this explicitly (which is why it is a matter of time before themaster shifts this discussion into winghun as is his motive and intention In starting this thread). However power doesn't come from nothing (conservation of energy princople) and tendon power is loaded by using the spine itself as the battery so to speak and the legs and lower body charges it by sinking into stance. The spine is stretched like a bow and so tendon power is loaded to power the punches in wingchun. Without the legs and lower body bending the bow figuratively speaking the punches in wc would all be arm power alone and thus devoid of real power.

The legs and lower body are the primary engine for punching in all martial arts that I am aware of though in differing ways and anyone saying different has aot a huge onus of proof to discharge.

 

[TheMaster]

Trying to rotate the torso independent of the hips is weaker however. (And will cost you later in life from slipped discs.)

The basic disconnect here is you speak of one element, while most of the folks you are arguing with are speaking of each of the elements together as a whole.

One punches people with their hands, not their feet. Anyone with eyes to see could say that upper body strength can make an impact. But evidently, it takes a genius to see how to reach levels beyond that. And while many others may not be geniuses, they can benefit from the experience of genius as it meets with reality through it's growth in traditions.

Coaches who know what they are talking emphasize the legs because it is a cue. Your client doesn't need help focusing on his hands, he needs help to focus beyond his hands, so he can become something more than a pillow-fisted arm puncher.

Yes obviously, I am not suggesting to try to rotate any part independently just that the rotation is mechanically driven by the upper body primarily but connecting to the chain of the hip also.

Shoulder whirl is not immediately apparent unless it is taught and is a significant addition that can create KO power for straights or hooks and is basically upper body but can be synced with the lower body also.

To come back to Dempsey, he is describing primarily hooks as driven by shoulder whirl with the core and hip supporting.

You can try doing a hook (a trunk rotation with punch) and try to do it either driven by the hip and legs, by the core, or by shoulder whirl as leading the kinetic chain. You will find that if it is driven by shoulder whirl it is by far the fastest and most explosive. When we see Wilder do those crazy swings that is tendon elasticity and shoulder whirl not leg power, the legs are not really involved much just a support base.



So if we are talking about the kinetic chain it's really a matter of emphasis since we can all agree ideally the whole body is involved.

 

[Sanserif]

Yes obviously, I am not suggesting to try to rotate any part independently just that the rotation is mechanically driven by the upper body primarily but connecting to the chain of the hip also.

Shoulder whirl is not immediately apparent unless it is taught and is a significant addition that can create KO power for straights or hooks and is basically upper body but can be synced with the lower body also.

To come back to Dempsey, he is describing primarily hooks as driven by shoulder whirl with the core and hip supporting.

You can try doing a hook or a straight with a stance turn (a trunk rotation with punch) and try to do it either driven by the hip and legs, by the core, or by shoulder whirl as leading the kinetic chain. You will find that if it is driven by shoulder whirl it is by far the fastest and most explosive. When we see Wilder do those crazy swings that is tendon elasticity and shoulder whirl not leg power, the legs are not really involved much just a support base.

View attachment 852789
View attachment 852790
So if we are talking about the kinetic chain it's really a matter of emphasis since we can all agree ideally the whole body is involved.

Thats what I mean by lack of any boxing technique blinding your knowledge themaster. You and I are looking at the same clip but u don't see what is clear as day. Wilder's primary engine for his right cross which is his ko punch usually are his legs. Firstly he always moves into the punch - leg thrust. In fact he moves a huge distance forward to move his whole body quickly onto the punch compared to other boxers and his has been pointed out by boxing analysts who break down his style.

Secondly and less obviously his trunk rotation is driven by his legs and hips as he moves forward. Which part of his body is exploding into the punch? U only look at his shoulder but look at his hips! That is where the power is coming from!

 

[TheMaster]

Wilder's primary engine for his right cross which is his ko punch usually are his legs. Firstly he always moves into the punch - leg thrust. In fact he moves a huge distance forward to move his whole body quickly onto the punch compared to other boxers and his has been pointed out by boxing analysts who break down his style.

Secondly and less obviously his trunk rotation is driven by his legs and hips as he moves forward. Which part of his body is exploding into the punch? U only look at his shoulder but look at his hips! That is where the power is coming from!

Like I said, the power is from shoulder whirl and core and tendon power and the legs and hips support.

Yes clearly legs are involved also but he
frequently knocks out people with minimal leg movement also.
He also swings from positions where there is minimal or no leg thrust indicating that it is a supporting role.

He is synchronized and coordinated, his power is mainly from his shoulder whirl and core with the leg thrust from his skinny legs adding and also bridging distance where needed.

 

[Sanserif]

Like I said, the power is from shoulder whirl and core and tendon power and the legs and hips support.

Yes clearly legs are involved also but he
frequently knocks out people with minimal leg movement also.
He also swings from positions where there is minimal or no leg thrust indicating that it is a supporting role.

He is synchronized and coordinated, his power is mainly from his shoulder whirl and core with the leg thrust from his skinny legs adding and also bridging distance where needed.

Both clips show significant leg thrust and crossing of big gap and thus building up of momentum and velocity for punch.

He is slim and skinny as a whole but his muscles are wiry and the seemingly thinness of his legs should not be taken on face value. His glutes, hamstrings andn calves dwarf his back and shoulder muscles and contribute far more force to his torso torque by way of his hip bump when he punches.

The shoulder is actually not the primary driver. Just like a baseball throw the wind up of the hip is what powers the movement despite the shoulder appearing to an outsider to be the main active component.

 

[TheMaster]

Both clips show significant leg thrust and crossing of big gap and thus building up of momentum and velocity for punch.

He is slim and skinny as a whole but his muscles are wiry and the seemingly thinness of his legs should not be taken on face value. His glutes, hamstrings andn calves dwarf his back and shoulder muscles and contribute far more force to his torso torque by way of his hip bump when he punches.

The shoulder is actually not the primary driver. Just like a baseball throw the wind up of the hip is what powers the movement despite the shoulder appearing to an outsider to be the main active component.

This is your opinion but not backed by the scientific studies we have seen which give less significance to the leg muscles overall.
Wilders back muscles are also huge.

You are also getting it the wrong way around. The punch begins at the shoulder.
Although common belief is that windup of the of the hip (actually mainly the core but definitely combined with the hip) originates the power this is incorrect.

The fundamental punching action starts with the shoulder, being an arm movement.
The purpose of the kinetic chain is to synchronize the other body movements to multiply force with this shoulder and arm action, but it does not mean the movements originate on the legs!

Think about it and you will see that is an absurd idea anyway.
You are getting confuse by the simple terminology of 'kinetic chain' to think it is linear from legs to arm but it is more complex, it is syncing the force generated from different body parts into an arm and shoulder originated motion.

This is why sensible training first islate and build upon and 'arm punch', before adding shoulder whirl and the contribution of core, hip and lastly a step if needed.

Here Dempsey shows how the legspring and hip hunch as he calls it add to the shoulder whirl to create the hook.



And here is a modern day anatomical study breaking down the muscles involved in trunk rotation, including the exact examples we are discussing including swinging the arms or an object to strike. It also depends on angle of the punch.



it is clear that yes legs and hip are involved but it is mainly upper body, infact not just core but chest and shoulder are involved.

I'm really no going to entertain this endless pedantic debate with you further. You have followed some misunderstood or partially understood points about punching but thats ok, as I mentioned people can follow a wrong understanding but still be effective.

Kindly do not try to argue for the sake of it or play more semantic games the science is quite clear and supports basically the studies cited showing contribution of about 38% leg muscles, 37% trunk muscles and about 24% arms. i.e mainly upper body but obviously all working together with the legs and hip also. No doubt percentages will vary with type of punch and angle but this would seem to be roughly accurate.

 

[Sanserif]

This is your opinion but not backed by the scientific studies we have seen which give less significance to the leg muscles overall.
Wilders back muscles are also huge.

You are also getting it the wrong way around. The punch begins at the shoulder.
Although common belief is that windup of the of the hip (actually mainly the core but definitely combined with the hip) originates the power this is incorrect.

The fundamental punching action starts with the shoulder, being an arm movement.
The purpose of the kinetic chain is to synchronize the other body movements to multiply force with this shoulder and arm action, but it does not mean the movements originate on the legs!

Think about it and you will see that is an absurd idea anyway.
You are getting confuse by the simple terminology of 'kinetic chain' to think it is linear from legs to arm but it is more complex, it is syncing the force generated from different body parts into an arm and shoulder originated motion.

This is why sensible training first islate and build upon and 'arm punch', before adding shoulder whirl and the contribution of core, hip and lastly a step if needed.

Here Dempsey shows how the legspring and hip hunch as he calls it add to the shoulder whirl to create the hook.



And here is a modern day anatomical study breaking down the muscles involved in trunk rotation, including the exact examples we are discussing including swinging the arms or an object to strike. It also depends on angle of the punch.



it is clear that yes legs and hip are involved but it is mainly upper body, infact not just core but chest and shoulder are involved.

I'm really no going to entertain this endless pedantic debate with you further. You have followed some misunderstood or partially understood points about punching but thats ok, as I mentioned people can follow a wrong understanding but still be effective.

Kindly do not try to argue for the sake of it or play more semantic games the science is quite clear and supports basically the studies cited showing contribution of about 38% leg muscles, 37% trunk muscles and about 24% arms. i.e mainly upper body but obviously all working together with the legs and hip also. No doubt percentages will vary with type of punch and angle but this would seem to be roughly accurate.

1. Amazing - the study i cited actually expressly statts and concludes by saying that the legs ar the most important factor and then goes on to recommend leg strengthening exercises to improve the punching power of boxers but according to u the study says that legs are less important??? What an astonishing bias you have themaster that can reas a study so wrongly!

2. I was not aware you have physically measured wilder's back muscles vs his glutes and hamstrings and calves!!! Please do not pluck non existent observations out of the thin air. The apparent size of muscles is not any kind of guide and u have no way of knowing how big thy are versus muscles that are found in his shorts! Furthermore what u are saying makes no biological sense because in human beings being bipedal beings, the leg muscles are bigger than the back muscles.

3. All martial arts that I know of teach that strikes originate from the ground - which makes sense because it is rhe ground that we push and brace against. Aa a result the chain begins from the lower body that is in contact with the ground.

4. According to the study by Khusainov (see https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/cuban-boxing-fundamentals.3780639/page-15) the punch begins with the movement of the lower body in the direction of the punch and whiplashes the upper body forward. The upper body erects the punch and the punch then slams into the target with all the force and momentum of the entire body behind it. The lower body therefore leads the punching action, not the upper body. Khusainov covered this for the forward motion but this ireality s true not only for the forward motion caused by the leg thrust but also in the turnk rotation that is powered by the hips and leg muscles in the posterior chain.

5. The above is backed up by the coaching I have received from boxing coaches over a considerable period.

6. I'm not particularly good at boxing at all but the above is also practiced by me every time I throw a punch. All my punches start with the lower body and are primarily propelled by the lower body. My upper body merely forms the punch but the power mostly comes from the lower body. That is how I have punched for a long time because I was trained to do so.

7. The website u had tried to cite appears not to be about boxing at all but about hgeneral movement. The role of back muscles in assisting the rotation of spinal vertebrae is not in issue at all br what is in issue is what is the primary muscle groups responsible for driving the torso rotation behind punches which the article is of no assistance on whatsoever.

8. Only newbies throw punches starting from the shoulder. They typically have arm power only.

8.it is unsurprising that you throw shoulder and arm punches like that and don't know how to deploy the kinetic chain properly since u don't know how to punch boxing style and learned to throw punch-like hand movements watching video clips that u misunderstood instead of learning from qualified boxing coaches and train with proper boxers and boxing students;

9. What is not excusable is u continuing to proclaim your uneducated viewpoints even though u don't know how to box and base your opinions solely on studying video clips instead of training in a boxing gym;

10. You tell me I dont know what I am talking about but I can and do engage lower body ad leg power in my rotation of my trunk in my punches instinctively and all my punches ate like that and ther are much more powerful as a result. You clearly cannot do that because you have never been trained to box in a boxing gym before.

But please dont try to deny or redefine everyone else's experience according to your own inability!