The problem is with you lumping in the core and upper body together. Core plays a HUGE role. Upper body, not so much.
You can argue and dispute it all you want, but you're simply wrong.
Do we need any more proof that punching power is upper body and tendons?
- Thread starter TheMaster
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You can argue and dispute it all you want, but you're simply wrong.
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Is there any footage of TheMaster anywhere? I know he was asked several times about it to prove his lets say exotic pov but I dont remember anything ever posted.
Even if he was the hardest puncher that has ever existed, it wouldn't matter. It's an objective fact that the lower body and core play far bigger roles in power production than the upper body. I'm sure there's exact science out there that proves it, but it's much easier to just learn how to use hip drive in your punches, and FEEL the difference.
Not that I'm any master at boxing — I'm still needing to get into a gym — but I do understand the fundamental importance of hip drive.
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@PCP319
Oh I agree with everything you said. Its just that this is not the first thread like this from him. He did that many times. I remember this jewel of a thread about stance. Its in the end a practical art you have to do and can see a lot by video demonstration. So thats why I am wondering if he has uploaded footage to all this controversial stuff or is just a talker.
Oh I agree with everything you said. Its just that this is not the first thread like this from him. He did that many times. I remember this jewel of a thread about stance. Its in the end a practical art you have to do and can see a lot by video demonstration. So thats why I am wondering if he has uploaded footage to all this controversial stuff or is just a talker.
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Gotcha. Well, if he is just a talker, maybe he'll eventually learn. I'm new to boxing, but you may notice I'm an orange belt here. Few years ago, I used to come around here with obnoxious opinions on everything, but I never actually boxed. I feel like I'm trying to do things better this time lol.
Might just be a young guy. Can't even count the number of places I wore out my welcome as a young guy because I was a troll. Was one of the most hated trolls on bodybuilding.com misc for a minute there (Pimptasty). So much so that if I show my face on any thread there, I'm immediately banned, even though it was a decade ago
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@TheMaster
So as I talked about it why dont you upload several of your hypothesis in a video demonstration on how you punch / move?
Doesnt have to be sparring. Can be shadow boxing or whatever you call it.
So as I talked about it why dont you upload several of your hypothesis in a video demonstration on how you punch / move?
Doesnt have to be sparring. Can be shadow boxing or whatever you call it.
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The core is the upper body.
From the start I was clear I was talking about not over emphasising the effect of leg spring vs the arms, shoulders and core and also tendon power in the arms.
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To be fair, I don't think anyone has posted any other studies other than the one I posted?
Multiple studies would prove once and for all what we want to know, I only posted the first one I found and it seems no one wants to post any more.
Multiple studies would prove once and for all what we want to know, I only posted the first one I found and it seems no one wants to post any more.
Perhaps I simply misunderstood. So I'll just outright ask:
Do you think the arms (and their tendons) and shoulders are more important for power production when punching than legs?
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It really depends how you punch. This is not just about boxing technique.
According to the one study we have which looked only at boxers doing punches, the legs have more of a contribution (38%) than just the arms alone (24%) however the trunk is attributed at 37% so I don't know how much of this includes the shoulders.
Obviously for shoulder whirl the back is involved and the connection between them.
If I was to say arms + shoulder whirl specifically vs legspring (excluding torso rotation which involves both the core and hips) I would put them as almost even, but it depends how you punch and the type of punch thrown. In general I would put arms plus shoulder whirl as more important for more types of punches.
I will show here an example of different power mechanism using more emphasis on tendon power.
This isn't about 'why haven't we seen WC in mma' (something done primarily as a hobby by most people, usually with not much sparring and not really designed for the ring) compared with boxing (a widespread competitive ring sport which bridges easily to other combat sports).
It's simply to highlight different mechanics of power generation,and they can be integrated. I have had no problem adding the Dempsey shoulder whirl as fits with traditional WC technique where it is taught as a pull back of the opposing arm at the time of punching to engage the shoulder.
These guys hit with huge power, the hardest punches I have felt and you need to experience it from a high level guy. I trained with an mma guy recently who does boxing/mt and he was surprised and getting winded by palm strikes done at 60% power, without adding any step and legspring or rotation of the torso (which can be added if desired).
Tendon power can be developed to a very high level also and is another power generation mechanic in it's own right. This is what I see in Wilder with the crazy speed he has in his swings with 'poor' traditional technique.
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WC guys havent KO nobody, where r the good WC figthers trying to defend the WC reputation?
There is a former instructor from Argentina that left WC and he tells u why WC is not good, he has the videos on YT but is in Spanish. He trained under Emin Boztepe.. everybody in WC is scared of Boztepe lol, he has the most famous fight in modern WC history, fought another big WC master, they showed nothing of WC
You should heard the Jimmy Smith story of when he practiced WC in Hong Kong for the Fight Quest tv show
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from the video:
"power through the feet is ok in a ring fight but on da streez or the BATTLEFIELD (what the fuck) it has downsides, what if someone smashes my knee with a baseball bat" <Lmaoo><Lmaoo>
Yeah then your biggest problem is punching power developed through the feet while the WC guy can still fight
This guy obviously was on the most brutal battlefields on this planet were they even use baseball bats to take away your punching power while you wanted to box up Osama bin laden.
Guys watch the video its hillarious. Pure comedy gold. Love it.
Here he does chi sparring. Glad he didnt kill the other guys.
comments are also a joy to read:
"Around 15 years ago when I touched your hands in a trial-lesson I felt like sinking into the floor Sifu. I cannot even image how it will feel like if I touch your hands now. Thank you so much for sharing all this incredible truths and skills. Your videos are very much inspiring! Thank you Sifu."
So we are back to Wing Chun again with this thread . Always the same. Honestly I think TheMaster is playing us as the best troll of Sherdog. No one can really be convinced of this in 2021
"power through the feet is ok in a ring fight but on da streez or the BATTLEFIELD (what the fuck) it has downsides, what if someone smashes my knee with a baseball bat" <Lmaoo><Lmaoo>
Yeah then your biggest problem is punching power developed through the feet while the WC guy can still fight
This guy obviously was on the most brutal battlefields on this planet were they even use baseball bats to take away your punching power while you wanted to box up Osama bin laden.
Guys watch the video its hillarious. Pure comedy gold. Love it.
Here he does chi sparring. Glad he didnt kill the other guys.
comments are also a joy to read:
"Around 15 years ago when I touched your hands in a trial-lesson I felt like sinking into the floor Sifu. I cannot even image how it will feel like if I touch your hands now. Thank you so much for sharing all this incredible truths and skills. Your videos are very much inspiring! Thank you Sifu."
So we are back to Wing Chun again with this thread . Always the same. Honestly I think TheMaster is playing us as the best troll of Sherdog. No one can really be convinced of this in 2021
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Bruh Ironkhan's the best, IMHO. Trolls with style.
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What's funny about that video? That you don't understand the role of sensitivity and tactile relflexes at close range and in fighting?
LMAO
Why do you make such retarded posts then act smug when you get bitchslapped without backing it up?
must be the story of your life no?
Sergio is pretty damn good and it's clear he knows his stuff WC wise. He is also rounded and has a BJJ purple belt, like Alan Orr (who is a BJJ black belt) they are all cross trained and capable.
I'm starting think this is some kind of mass Inferiority complex in Western marrial arts circles.
Like we all know that Asian derived martial arts dominate and have reshaped MMA like Judo/BJJ, MuayThai, and Dutch style Karate based Kickboxing.
Then we have wrestling which is a universal sport is doesn't belong to any culture.
So we are left with western boxing, the holy cow of Western martial arts.
A discussion about the mechanics of punching, and different studies and approaches to power development which is an interesting topic, gets railed on by these little manlets who come on here trying to crticiize somthing they know little about.
Since I have actually have used some of the boxing mechanics described by Dempsey to generate power and cited books on the subject and also the research and break down of muscle groups.
This fool, who already got bitchslapped earlier from his misunderstood claims about the Dempsey book he didn't even read is now back for a second round crticizing WC because he trained in it to a low level years ago.
Why not actually engage the discussion?
I can guarantee any if these 'funny' punches would KTFO you or break something of they hit. The same is true about short range power and hitting without a base on the ground.
You know it as well, otherwise post a vid yourself getting punched or elbowed by a decent WC guy then report how 'funny' you found it.
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I did that years ago but without video cameras (no mobile cameras back then). There were no "decent WC/WT guys" and they were quite high ranking. Did try out a lot of martial arts in friendly sparring from boxing to Tai Chi. Most dont want it recorded and I respect that as they earn money with their reputation. MT is still on my to do list (Lethwei too but I am too chicken to ever try that out) . Thats what martial arts is about in my book. I come from a japanese ma background so your "western inferiority complex" theory is strange to put it mildly.
I agree at some point its about put up or shut up, thats why I asked you to upload a video of yourself. Not sparring necessary but demonstrating your strange theories (Remember your lead hand forward thread?) . But nothing ever came of that did it. And why dont you just post a sparring clip of yourself as you obviously are a longtime practitioner and deem WC as effective? If you are too old take a clip from training partners, students anybody.
Discussion without practical reflection is useless at some point in martial arts and we have reached that point a long time ago with you. Its nice that Sergio crosstrains but its about the nonsensical approach to fighting with WC and the stupid stuff he said in the video. Its about WC itself. I know that BJJ is highly effective. Link me a video of him sparring with WC. And I mean sparring not just playing around with his students.
I have asked for years for legit sparring videos of WC guys and never got one. I know of MMA fight teams out of WT schools in Italy but then I watch them fight and they just use the crosstrained ma like bjj, wrestling boxing and no WC at all. Give me some adresses in europe (mainland) to in your estimation legit guys. Once Covid is over I will try to visit one of them if its not too far and I am back in decent shape. Or I will just visit the local WC gyms. There are several. If they allow I will record and post it. If the adresses are farther away (US..etc) I am sure we will have other members able and interested to look it up. Or you invite me or other members living near you to your gym for a friendly sparring. Were are you located?
I never trained in WC . I tried it out and sparred with them. The Dempsey book is and will always remain one of my favourite books ever about martial arts. An inspiration.
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We are discussing the technical details of force development and the answers are not obvious even just from the few studies on Western boxing since the body is a dynamic system and there will also be variation based on type of punch thrown, angles etc.
If we want to examine another system where punching force is generated with a different but overlapping concept especially emphasis of tendon power then that will take further time and there are even fewer studies.
This thread therefore started with the observation that Wilder, who has skinny legs but a large upper body and core and clearly powerful fast twitch muscles and tendon strength can generate huge KO power without apparent much use of legspring although he does use it at times in straight punches, and hardly in his swings (I won't call them hooks).
I have liked and used the Dempsey book for years and it is popular in the WC community due to his emphasis on shoulder whirl, the bottom 3 knuckle landing punch and the falling step all of which have an overlap with WC theory.
I'm not interested in turning this into a discussion about WC or my specific training and derailing thread.
The question immediately comes "why haven't we seen WC in mma" - different thread, threre is already a thousand post thread on that elsewhere.
The the next question "does WC have power?" A style famous for close range power but you have to feel it yourself.
Posting a vid of myself would serve no purpose and not settle any arguments.
You call strong hand lead stance 'strange' but it is not uncommon in mma and favours bridging striking and grappling better.
I have felt the power of high level WC punches and had the bruise's to show for it, as well as delivering the same to others
For legit WC schools although I can't vouch for the quality of each instuctor I would say Wong Shun Leung lineage. So schools under these association are under WSL direct students.
https://vingtsun.info/en/lineage.html
I think you said you were in Germany so if you are really interested these guys are in a legit lineage although like I said I can't comment on individuals but if they have experience and have been certfied to teach they should be good at least.
https://garylamwingchun.com/
http://wankamleung.com/branches/?lang=en
Mostly these schools cater for hobbyists and WC anyway isn't trained usually as a combat sport, but some of the instructors teach professionally and a fair few have done challenge fights and/or cross trained or competed in some form of combat sport.
So again, if you come in with a respectful attitude and ask for a friendly spar there should be no issue at most of these places. Probably if you ask to do it separately after the class or you want to go heavier is best since there no point doing it front of regular students. If you came in with attitude, you would likely get hurt. So its about respect but otherwise yes they would probably be glad to have someone who is interested to learn and find out if it is 'legit'.
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He hasn’t, and he won’t.
He won’t.
To the kids credit he actually laced them up (or, probably velcroed them on) and did the damn thing. IK was good at getting peoples goats but he also threw down in piss soaked parking lots and posted the videos. Hespect for that.
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@DoctorTaco
And you also wanted to post a video if I recall correct. Also still missing
@TheMaster
thx for the video but its again only drills. We dont need to make a WC sparring thread out of it again so I will leave it at that but I was talking about sparring.
And you also wanted to post a video if I recall correct. Also still missing
@TheMaster
thx for the video but its again only drills. We dont need to make a WC sparring thread out of it again so I will leave it at that but I was talking about sparring.
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