Does anyone else find the way MMA commentators talk about takedowns as weird?

[Kforcer]

I'm thinking about stuff like talking about "takedown accuracy" or "number of takedowns blocked" or the notion that blocking a takedown should count for as much in scoring as securing one. I guess one reason it seems so weird is that part of good wrestling is chaining your moves together and another important part of it is persistence. A guy who put together 5 takedown attempts to finally get an opponent to the mat didn't necessarily do worse than a man who got him to the mat immediately, especially if he did something worthwhile once he scored the takedown.

And the idea that someone would get points for takedown defense is also kind of bizarre to me; defense doesn't score points, it simply stops the opponent from scoring.

Sometimes, a person defending a takedown can enact a degree of control on his opponent, and in that case, he should get some credit for that control. But not for the act of stymieing someone's offense in and of itself.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Who talks that way? And I would think a guy who gets his opponent immediately to the mat is much more efficient and energy conserved than the guy struggling with 10 td attempts.

 

[Kforcer]

Who talks that way? And I would think a guy who gets his opponent immediately to the mat is much more efficient and energy conserved than the guy struggling with 10 td attempts.

I mean, you're right one hand, but a guy who is able to overcome an opponent's initial defense is also in some sense, more impressive. And I mean, so often, even when a takedown seemingly happens quickly, it will be a combination of attempts executed in quick concert based on the opponent's reactions. So I think it's also weird to talk about takedown attempts as such in a way, because often a single takedown is the result of a bunch of feints, set-ups and yes, attempted takedowns.

But anyway, who talks like that...? I hear it all the time and I see it in articles, metrics, etc. I always hear people talk about "takedown accuracy" or the idea that someone denied "4 of 10 takedown attempts" and it just strikes me as strange. Even the term "takedown accuracy" is a little off to me.

 

[Kforcer]

Admittedly, Goldberg is long gone and he is one of the guys I am thinking of.

 

[SHAOLINMONK420]

Who talks that way? And I would think a guy who gets his opponent immediately to the mat is much more efficient and energy conserved than the guy struggling with 10 td attempts.

It is bizarre. The takedown scoring system is garbage. Td attempts are often chained together and often a shot or takedown is just used to set up another takedown. Yet on the scorecard it is a failed attempt

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I wonder where they draw the line to consider it a takedown attempt - what about a small, sneaky footsweep attempt? It's not all blast doubles.

 

[Kforcer]

I wonder where they draw the line to consider it a takedown attempt - what about a small, sneaky footsweep attempt? It's not all blast doubles.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

 

[SHAOLINMONK420]

I wonder where they draw the line to consider it a takedown attempt - what about a small, sneaky footsweep attempt? It's not all blast doubles.

i dont think mma judges know anything about wrestling except the great jeff blatnick. im sure there are some others but blatnicks card in the wec meant way more than the other judges.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Yes, it is total nonsense.

 

[Nnedd]

They always say, "Judo throw".

Motherfucker, you are a paid combat analyst. Know the names of basic throws.

I mention this occasionally teaching classes, and its become a running joke in our school.

 

[ChickenBrother]

They always say, "Judo throw".

Motherfucker, you are a paid combat analyst. Know the names of basic throws.

I mention this occasionally teaching classes, and its become a running joke in our school.

Any throw that ends with tori landing in scarfhold ("Judo pin") is a "Judo throw" LOL. I mean I can forgive someone confusing uchi mata and hane goshi, but even those look vastly different from say, tai otoshi, seoi nage or o goshi even to an untrained observer.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Michael Schiavello always used the judo names!

 

[updowniri]

I don't think any judges score defense. I have heard some sherdogers demand that they do but it seems like judges will score failed offense higher then nothing.

Stats like TD percentage or TDD percentage are stupid though.

 

[Xuh]

They always say, "Judo throw".

Motherfucker, you are a paid combat analyst. Know the names of basic throws.

I mention this occasionally teaching classes, and its become a running joke in our school.

It'd be even better if they also extended that depth of analysis to the striking

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I'm thinking about stuff like talking about "takedown accuracy" or "number of takedowns blocked" or the notion that blocking a takedown should count for as much in scoring as securing one. I guess one reason it seems so weird is that part of good wrestling is chaining your moves together and another important part of it is persistence. A guy who put together 5 takedown attempts to finally get an opponent to the mat didn't necessarily do worse than a man who got him to the mat immediately, especially if he did something worthwhile once he scored the takedown.

And the idea that someone would get points for takedown defense is also kind of bizarre to me; defense doesn't score points, it simply stops the opponent from scoring.

Sometimes, a person defending a takedown can enact a degree of control on his opponent, and in that case, he should get some credit for that control. But not for the act of stymieing someone's offense in and of itself.

You are right. However there is the energy aspect. We see often some fighters depleting themselves in the first round on failed TD attempts. They often end up getting pieced together in the rest of the fight.

 

[mataleaos]

They always say, "Judo throw".

Motherfucker, you are a paid combat analyst. Know the names of basic throws.

I mention this occasionally teaching classes, and its become a running joke in our school.

That’s driven me crazy since Karo Parisyan abd still most haven’t done their homework

 

[JohnPJones]

I mean, you're right one hand, but a guy who is able to overcome an opponent's initial defense is also in some sense, more impressive. And I mean, so often, even when a takedown seemingly happens quickly, it will be a combination of attempts executed in quick concert based on the opponent's reactions. So I think it's also weird to talk about takedown attempts as such in a way, because often a single takedown is the result of a bunch of feints, set-ups and yes, attempted takedowns.

But anyway, who talks like that...? I hear it all the time and I see it in articles, metrics, etc. I always hear people talk about "takedown accuracy" or the idea that someone denied "4 of 10 takedown attempts" and it just strikes me as strange. Even the term "takedown accuracy" is a little off to me.

It's the same as striking...feints, and combos set up the power shots or the sneaky shots.
A one hit KO is possible and has happened, but it's rare.

If it's stupid to talk about takedowns that way it's stupid to talk about striking that way as well...so how does one measure a fighters skill otherwise?

 

[JohnPJones]

I don't think any judges score defense. I have heard some sherdogers demand that they do but it seems like judges will score failed offense higher then nothing.

Stats like TD percentage or TDD percentage are stupid though.

Scoring aggression promotes action, so even if your offensive move fails it's a bit less of a risk. Even a failed attack still has some reward, therefore it encourages some attempts.

 

[SHAOLINMONK420]

They always say, "Judo throw".

Motherfucker, you are a paid combat analyst. Know the names of basic throws.

I mention this occasionally teaching classes, and its become a running joke in our school.

how bout we make a new rule: anytime a throw is done that looks like a judo throw to the mma analysts they call it just a throw. most mma fans dont know the rules to judo or greco roman.

 

[ChickenBrother]

how bout we make a new rule: anytime a throw is done that looks like a judo throw to the mma analysts they call it just a throw. most mma fans dont know the rules to judo or greco roman.

The thing is, that would be worse than current practice. Sadly "Judo throw," just like "muay thai clinch," "karate punch" or "capoeira kick," actually means something to brospeak casuals.

I'd also add that recognizable "Judo throws" like uchi mata, hane goshi, harai goshi or o soto gari, as well as o uchi gari, ko soto gari and every foot sweep technique would be a DQ under greco rules due to initiating contact with your opponent's lower body during the throw. Even under the restrictive current IJF ruleset, attacking your opponent's lower body with your feet or legs during TDs is allowed.

So "Judo throw" technically can mean any throw that's not a double, single, high crotch lift or ankle pick variation.