Dutch kickboxing

lolmit

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Hello,
1. What is the difference between dutch kickboxing to the regular one?
2. Is Savate is vanished martial arts or there is any fighter who use it ?(In Glory for example?)
 
Dutch kickboxing isn't really a thing in of itself.

To put it in the most simple terms, dutch kickboxers compete under what used to be called oriental rules kickboxing, meaning you can kick to the legs and knee. Dutch fighters have a heavy influence from Kyokushin Karate and Muay Thai - but dutch kickboxing in of itself isn't a thing any more than Russian Boxing is a thing. There are trends in how they train such as a heavy focus on partner based drills and hard sparring, but dutch kickboxing and japanese kickboxing aren't hugely different.

Punching into low kicks are normally the most common stereotypical techniques, but Lucien Carbin has a style onto his own, as did the fighters of Vos Gym, Mejiro etc.

As for Savate, Cedric Doumbe moves an awful lot like a savate fighter, who for lack of a better way of describing it move a lot like western boxers do, but with the addition of kicks. It's not a vanished martial art, it's just never been all that successful outside of France. France is a country with very strong kickboxing in general though, with a majority of the best muay thai fighters in Europe coming from France.
 
Dutch kickboxing isn't really a thing in of itself.

To put it in the most simple terms, dutch kickboxers compete under what used to be called oriental rules kickboxing, meaning you can kick to the legs and knee. Dutch fighters have a heavy influence from Kyokushin Karate and Muay Thai - but dutch kickboxing in of itself isn't a thing any more than Russian Boxing is a thing. There are trends in how they train such as a heavy focus on partner based drills and hard sparring, but dutch kickboxing and japanese kickboxing aren't hugely different.

Punching into low kicks are normally the most common stereotypical techniques, but Lucien Carbin has a style onto his own, as did the fighters of Vos Gym, Mejiro etc.

As for Savate, Cedric Doumbe moves an awful lot like a savate fighter, who for lack of a better way of describing it move a lot like western boxers do, but with the addition of kicks. It's not a vanished martial art, it's just never been all that successful outside of France. France is a country with very strong kickboxing in general though, with a majority of the best muay thai fighters in Europe coming from France.
Isn't kickboxing came from usa?
So you said there is still Savate gym's?
 
Isn't kickboxing came from usa?
So you said there is still Savate gym's?

Kickboxing in America isn't the same thing. American kickboxing is what we have another thread going about, that's a different sport that doesn't allow kicks to the legs, requires a minimum five (I think) kicks per round, could go up to 12 rounds like boxing and is MOSTLY a dead sport. It was more or less replaced with K-1 and a more japanese approach to kickboxing, which is what Dutch fighters thrive in.

The conflation with dutch kickboxing comes from the fact that in the 80s/90s there were a few dutch fighters who competed quite a lot in Muay Thai, with clinch/elbows etc. gyms like Chakuriki used to brand their training as muay thai, but it wasn't so much muay thai as we'd recognise it today as much as it was kickboxers who were competent in the clinch and elbowing who were competing under thai rules.

Nowadays you don't see the dutch competing in Muay Thai very often, they've largely moved on to kickboxing - but for a long time people used to call it 'dutch muay thai', which again, isn't really a thing

Yeah there are still savate competitions too:
 
When people talk about dutch style kickboxing they mean a style of fighting that is typical for the dutch kickboxers within K-1 rules. Most international kickboxing have now adapted similar ules to what was used in K-1, but not only dutch are fighting in it, there are also chinese, japanese, thai, french etc. So in other words, regular kickboxing is standup fghting without elbows and limited clinching. Dutch kickboxing is the style that the dutch use when they fight in regular, or international kickboxing.

Above waist kickboxing comes from the US and is a different sport.

For a typical old school dutch style of fighting you can look up Ramon Dekkers,Rob Kaman and Ernesto Hoost. It involved a lot of hand bombinations and low kicks. For some more modern fighters you can look at Mohamed Khamal, Ilias Bulaid, Robin Van Roosmalen,
 
Kickboxing in America isn't the same thing. American kickboxing is what we have another thread going about, that's a different sport that doesn't allow kicks to the legs, requires a minimum five (I think) kicks per round, could go up to 12 rounds like boxing and is MOSTLY a dead sport. It was more or less replaced with K-1 and a more japanese approach to kickboxing, which is what Dutch fighters thrive in.

The conflation with dutch kickboxing comes from the fact that in the 80s/90s there were a few dutch fighters who competed quite a lot in Muay Thai, with clinch/elbows etc. gyms like Chakuriki used to brand their training as muay thai, but it wasn't so much muay thai as we'd recognise it today as much as it was kickboxers who were competent in the clinch and elbowing who were competing under thai rules.

Nowadays you don't see the dutch competing in Muay Thai very often, they've largely moved on to kickboxing - but for a long time people used to call it 'dutch muay thai', which again, isn't really a thing

Yeah there are still savate competitions too:

Well it’s pretty weird ,
Japan are known for they tradition martial arts(JJJ, Judo, Karate) i was never imagine that the kickboxing came from there, it’s interesting how they develop it in the recent years.
About the video you sent , its look like they have different cloth’s and the fighters are more skinny.
I personally didn’t notice any different techniques.
I also know they allowed to send push kicks to the knees.
 
When people talk about dutch style kickboxing they mean a style of fighting that is typical for the dutch kickboxers within K-1 rules. Most international kickboxing have now adapted similar ules to what was used in K-1, but not only dutch are fighting in it, there are also chinese, japanese, thai, french etc. So in other words, regular kickboxing is standup fghting without elbows and limited clinching. Dutch kickboxing is the style that the dutch use when they fight in regular, or international kickboxing.

Above waist kickboxing comes from the US and is a different sport.

For a typical old school dutch style of fighting you can look up Ramon Dekkers,Rob Kaman and Ernesto Hoost. It involved a lot of hand bombinations and low kicks. For some more modern fighters you can look at Mohamed Khamal, Ilias Bulaid, Robin Van Roosmalen,
I am aware to Ernesto deadly low kicks..
Is Rico Verhoveen and Peter Aerts are belongs to these names style?
 
Well it’s pretty weird ,
Japan are known for they tradition martial arts(JJJ, Judo, Karate) i was never imagine that the kickboxing came from there, it’s interesting how they develop it in the recent years.
About the video you sent , its look like they have different cloth’s and the fighters are more skinny.
I personally didn’t notice any different techniques.
I also know they allowed to send push kicks to the knees.

tbf, you can do push kicks to to the knees in muay thai as well, it's just a lot of people are in denial about it
 
tbf, you can do push kicks to to the knees in muay thai as well, it's just a lot of people are in denial about it
I did noticed that thai fighters use more kicks and barely send punches...
Another strange thing is that in era that violence sell, the Traditional Muay Thai which allow elbows are not famous as k-1 rules competition.
I mean the most close thing to UFC rules i think is muay thai rules, no?
 
tbf, you can do push kicks to to the knees in muay thai as well, it's just a lot of people are in denial about it
People aren't in denial about that are you dumb ?
Do you even fight ?
Everyone knows they can do that but they also know that it is disrespectful , in a circuit that privileges gambling and fighters fighting several times a year , injury that can happen from that moves are way greater .
Everyone know they can Teep to the face too , do most people do that in the elite level of Muay Thai ? No .
Hell this is basic stuff , you must be new .
 
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I am aware to Ernesto deadly low kicks..
Is Rico Verhoveen and Peter Aerts are belongs to these names style?
Yes i'd say so. But every fighter is unique. I mean Verhoeven is definitely a dutch kickboxer, but i wouldn't say his style is the most representative for dutch kickboxers.

Regarding japanese kickboxing, there have been a lot of different threads here in the past. You can probably search for it.
 
I did noticed that thai fighters use more kicks and barely send punches...
Another strange thing is that in era that violence sell, the Traditional Muay Thai which allow elbows are not famous as k-1 rules competition.
I mean the most close thing to UFC rules i think is muay thai rules, no?

That's more of a recent thing. If you look at older muay thai from the golden age, you'll see fighters favouring punches more. The scoring was different back then. You will find boxers today who use their hands more though, Sitmonchai Gym is obviously famous for it, and fighters like Rodtang and Kaew Fairtex also like to swing punches.

I am not completely understanding your question unfortunately, so I'm gonna answer based on what I think you're asking. UFC stand up is the closest to muay thai in terms of allowed techniques, there is nothing you can do in muay thai that's banned in MMA, except for the 12-6 elbow.
People on Sherdog are often in denial that you can teep the knee, but as Sylvie Von Duuglas-Ittu pointed out on a reddit thread:
"Teeps to the thigh are pretty common, and even an appreciated technique."
They don't have the same stigma in muay thai that they do in MMA, where they're viewed as a 'career ender' despite never ending a career in the sports history.

So yes, MMA striking is most like muay thai in terms of allowed moves, but MMA doesn't look like Muay Thai striking at all. The distance is different, the pace is faster, it's doesn't look similar at all despite the allowed rules.
 
That's more of a recent thing. If you look at older muay thai from the golden age, you'll see fighters favouring punches more. The scoring was different back then. You will find boxers today who use their hands more though, Sitmonchai Gym is obviously famous for it, and fighters like Rodtang and Kaew Fairtex also like to swing punches.

I am not completely understanding your question unfortunately, so I'm gonna answer based on what I think you're asking. UFC stand up is the closest to muay thai in terms of allowed techniques, there is nothing you can do in muay thai that's banned in MMA, except for the 12-6 elbow.
People on Sherdog are often in denial that you can teep the knee, but as Sylvie Von Duuglas-Ittu pointed out on a reddit thread:
"Teeps to the thigh are pretty common, and even an appreciated technique."
They don't have the same stigma in muay thai that they do in MMA, where they're viewed as a 'career ender' despite never ending a career in the sports history.

So yes, MMA striking is most like muay thai in terms of allowed moves, but MMA doesn't look like Muay Thai striking at all. The distance is different, the pace is faster, it's doesn't look similar at all despite the allowed rules.
I meant,
Why if UFC is probably between 3 of the most successful fighting sport organization there is now is so popular why muay thai tournament is less popular and Glory and K-1(which not based on MT rules) are more popular.
In fact Muay Thai is more "violence" then both.
 
I meant,
Why if UFC is probably between 3 of the most successful fighting sport organization there is now is so popular why muay thai tournament is less popular and Glory and K-1(which not based on MT rules) are more popular.
In fact Muay Thai is more "violence" then both.

That comes down to Dana White and the Fertitta's honestly. They were just great businessmen, they knew how to promote the sport and had the money and contacts to make it big.That and the cage makes it instantly distinct from boxing from a product POV.

Muay Thai could be successful in that way, but it's just never been picked up by people who promoted it like Dana could in the west.

In Thailand, Muay Thai is obviously huge, there are so many fights going on at any given time, week in week out. It's a huge industry there, but it's success in the West is parasitic to MMA. It became more popular over here as MMA became more popular because of fighters like Shogun, Silva etc.

Unfortunately in America, the sport has always been viewed as an aside to MMA, rather than the great sport that it is on it's own.
Muay-Thai-UFC-MMA-world-wide.png

this was taken from 8limbs
 
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Another strange thing is that in era that violence sell, the Traditional Muay Thai which allow elbows are not famous as k-1 rules competition.
Nothing strange.
1. K-1 rules are more suitable to create fight easier observable from VIP tables and in TV for casual client. ;)
Therefore most likely also clinch restrictions: clients like to see easily observable kicks and punches, preferably medium and long distance.
Why wrestling is lesser popular for TV translations than boxing?
Why plenty of karate rules avards more points for high kicks and in TKD most highly scored stuff are jumping high kicks etc? Not punch from close range?
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+ the same karates does have simple grappling too, but it isn't commonly used cos scoring and rules.
Clients think that karate is jumping point fighting more from long- middle distance.
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Plus clients are a bit delusional about european amateur KB and rule sets.
The same low kicks under some rule sets are allowed, under others NO, and knee is allowed under k-1 type amateur rules.
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Also that all karate styles and even JJJ does have…..elbows, just if not allowed in tournaments, then aren't used in tournaments. Not only elbows they does have, also these eye pokes and open hands techniques not allowed in sport.
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Main difference between MT and KB are…………...clinch rules.

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Violence must be enough long and preferably easy observable for casual client.

Therefore pro boxing and K-1 does have more wievership than wrestling etc.
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Pro sport isn't about what techniques are better to finish opponent ASAP.
Pro sport is about entertainmnent for clients to watch fights and for promotions to collect $.
If promotion is able to sell ticket for VIP table for 1200, it is better than if for 200.
If media will pay 1m for event broacasting rights it is better than if just 0,5m.

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The same pro boxing, there is clear, why high level fights are 12*3 minutes and for beginners in pro boxing usually 4*3 minutes.
Not for example 1 single round with duration fe 15 minutes in ROW.
Longer to watch fighters if they does fight 12*3minutes fight.
 
But also US doesn't have any muay thai or kickboxing stars. If they had, maybe it would be more popular. Usually anything that vecoles popular in the US becomes popular in the rest of the world. Glory has been trying to create a US kickboxing star for years, but failed every time. Kickboxing is mostly europe, thailand, japan and china. Muay Thai mostly Thailand, then Europe and Brazil
 
But also US doesn't have any muay thai or kickboxing stars. If they had, maybe it would be more popular. Usually anything that vecoles popular in the US becomes popular in the rest of the world. Glory has been trying to create a US kickboxing star for years, but failed every time. Kickboxing is mostly europe, thailand, japan and china. Muay Thai mostly Thailand, then Europe and Brazil

America is performing poorly in combat sports in general, their amateur boxing is in the toilet, and as Sinister often says, pro boxing is a hustle where impressive looking records can be manufactured.

Like you say, Glory was gunning hard for an American star, guys like Joe Schilling, Dustin Jacoby etc. - but the skill level just isn't up to scratch yet. I think America is SO large that it's harder to get good, in the UK, Netherlands etc. small countries there are lots of gyms relatively close together and they get together for interclubs and competitions all the time + a better quality of trainer. I can imagine in the US it might be harder to find a good rival gym to make you go up a step.

The Americans who are really good are fighting and training IN Thailand. Granted that's true of a lot of the European fighters too.
 
People aren't in denial about that are you dumb ?
Do you even fight ?
Everyone knows they can do that but they also know that it is disrespectful , in a circuit that privileges gambling and fighters fighting several times a year , injury that can happen from that moves are way greater .
Everyone know they can Teep to the face too , do most people do that in the elite level of Muay Thai ? No .
Hell this is basic stuff , you must be new .

I've seen teeps to the leg in stadium muay thai at lower levels used against Farangs when they try to close distance to disrupt them and take them off balance

 
They usually teep the thigh, not the knees. It's just a fast way to manage distance and risrupt the opponent. Not a very scoring strike compared to a teep to the torso that clearly off balances the opponent i'd say.
 
They usually teep the thigh, not the knees. It's just a fast way to manage distance and risrupt the opponent. Not a very scoring strike compared to a teep to the torso that clearly off balances the opponent i'd say.

You're correct, but it's also based on a misunderstanding that these are different techniques. There's a perception that the kicks you see in MMA are targeting the knee, they aren't, they target the thigh. Jon Jones explicitly says this in his tutorial with Winklejohn on how to do the technique. It was really weird watching Joe Schilling talking about how the move shouldn't be allowed not realising that he does it.
 
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