Empty or chambered?

[terrapin]

I've heard arguments for both and have actually changed my view on this. I was carrying empty for safety reasons and have decided to stop it.

The reason being is that my gun should be ready when I need it. If I have to rack my slide first, that's something that could potentially go wrong. Besides that, I actually have an additional safety in place for my holster setup in this molded trigger cover so it's already pretty safe. It snaps on and off quite solidly.

Fully holstered
View attachment 858341

Trigger guard (string goes around belt, guard pops off when you draw)
View attachment 858340

Unfortunately, this won't be useable anymore if I add a light.

What do you do? Empty or chambered?

the answer is revolver.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

As I said in my other post above, I agree that carrying unchambered is definitely accepting a possible tactical disadvantage and increased risk in event of a violent life threatening attack in exchange for preventing a possible tragedy if a mistake is made one day.

So sure, it is always possible to construct a possible scenario where carrying unchambered may result in you losing out and getting killed by an attacker. I would concede this even though the averages favour the likelihood that such a scenario will ever happen to a given user, and even though it seems to me that many of those scenarios wouldn't favour chambered carry either. An example of this is the idea that you need to hold off an attacker with one hand while drawing and fiiring with the other hand. Ibwould take it that one is holding off a person armed with a knife or a machete since shooting an unarmed aggressor would be much more difficult to legally justify. An maniacal assailant armed with a knife or bladed weapon intent to kill you is a formidable adversary even for a person armed with a holstered firearm - Toeller's rule being the result of research into and training over such encounters. If one tries tries use merely one hand to hold off such an assailant.there is an extremely high chance one will sustain several stabs and slashes in a matter of a couple of seconds and any one or more of them could be fatal and lead to exanginuation in less than a minute. So while drawing and shooting him may happen after sustaining such injury that would be cold comfort as the victim expires along with the assailant. You really need to either flee and get out of Dodge at top speed (like the first victim in the hacking incident shown in the video on this page) or you need to focus all your attention and both arms at stopping the weapon from reading your vitals and disabling and disarming the assailant.

Another scenario you suggested was what if ypu were tackled from behind. Again u r in a situation where carrying chambered would not help u much better as the assailant has control of your Lower body and is presumably on top of you as he brought u down with u on your front. U are now in grappling situation where he could easily get control of your chambered pistol and use it on you...

Also ones chances cam be increased if one trains a lot under competent instructors in Israeli draw technique where eg single handed racking of the slide against the thigh etc is practiced under stress etc. Of course it will not completely eliminate the tactical disadvantage but it will increase one's chances of pulling it off if it happens happens for real.

My objection is mostly on the fscf that proponents of chambered carry seldom take cognisance of a hidden assumption behind their common refrain that one just has to practice better and more ans follow Jeff cooper's mandates. That hidden assumption is that with enough training you can eliminate the risk of an accident.

But just as no amount of training can guarantee success in the field, no amount of training can eliminate the possibility of an accident. Nobody Is and can be always on the ball, always vigilant, never complacent and never careless. Nor can we account for the actions or mistakes of others, like the incident I read about where a woman who hugged a man around the waist during a party unexpectedly from behind somehow accidentally caused the pistol he was wearing on his hip to fire...

A mistake will be made at some point. And so the question that has to be weighed is the risk of unchambered carry getting u killed in a violent encounter should one of those scenarios posited actually happen and the risk of a ND that ends up hurting or killing you or others around you...

Not possible disadvantage, it is a disadvantage. Watch these real quick. Just training videos.


https://www.instagram.com/reel/CJFBgwunha_/?utm_medium=copy_link

Now I can go find shooting videos that fit scenarios I've talked about but I don't really feel like combing through yt videos to do so.

My point was if for some reason you had to fight, create distance or grapple, if you had to use two hands or some belt rack deal it's a horrible disadvantage. Appendix carry so no they won't be able to take it unless I'm unconscious. It is still a massive advantage, I grapple until I can create enough space to draw and shoot. Not needing to rack a slide is an advantage in literally every scenario. It will always be faster. Does it matter in all scenarios, no it might not but it's still faster, there's zero chance of a ftf malfunction and you have 1 more round.

It's not difficult to justify shooting an unarmed person attacking you unprovoked.

A mistake will be made at some point? You think it's of high likelihood most people will ND with their carry guns? I don't. Quality firearm, quality holster, treat your gun with respect.

I think carrying empty is literally stupid. I will never do it. If you aren't comfortable with it loaded, cool, I don't really care what others do.

 

[Robocok]

the answer is revolver.

I've been wanting a good revolver for years now. I l went back and forth between glock and revolver for my first. I don't regret my glock, but next up I'm either getting a s&w 500 or a model 29.

 

[Woldog]

I've been wanting a good revolver for years now. I l went back and forth between glock and revolver for my first. I don't regret my glock, but next up I'm either getting a s&w 500 or a model 29.

What do you think the .500 will do to your hand?

 

[terrapin]

I've been wanting a good revolver for years now. I l went back and forth between glock and revolver for my first. I don't regret my glock, but next up I'm either getting a s&w 500 or a model 29.

here's mine. im not really much of a gun guy and wanted an idiot proof gun to protect my family. no hammer no safety short barrel and double action.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-642

 

[Robocok]

What do you think the .500 will do to your hand?

Spoiler

 

[Sanserif]

Not possible disadvantage, it is a disadvantage. Watch these real quick. Just training videos.


https://www.instagram.com/reel/CJFBgwunha_/?utm_medium=copy_link

Now I can go find shooting videos that fit scenarios I've talked about but I don't really feel like combing through yt videos to do so.

My point was if for some reason you had to fight, create distance or grapple, if you had to use two hands or some belt rack deal it's a horrible disadvantage. Appendix carry so no they won't be able to take it unless I'm unconscious. It is still a massive advantage, I grapple until I can create enough space to draw and shoot. Not needing to rack a slide is an advantage in literally every scenario. It will always be faster. Does it matter in all scenarios, no it might not but it's still faster, there's zero chance of a ftf malfunction and you have 1 more round.

It's not difficult to justify shooting an unarmed person attacking you unprovoked.

A mistake will be made at some point? You think it's of high likelihood most people will ND with their carry guns? I don't. Quality firearm, quality holster, treat your gun with respect.

I think carrying empty is literally stupid. I will never do it. If you aren't comfortable with it loaded, cool, I don't really care what others do.

Like I said, neither chambered or unchambtered carry is stupid. It is a decision that everyone who carries needs to consider carefully before choosing because the consequences of that decision will fall on his shoulders. All I wanted to point out is that it is unwise to rule out unchambered carry out of hand and absolutize that as true for everyone and for all situations, as well as not to downplay the near certainty of a mistake being made by every gun owner some time in their lives of owning firearms.

On the videos, if one is facing a determined or crazed knife wielding attacker intent on killing you, one's one hand will not stop him from stabbing or slashing you perhaps multiple times. Adrenaline or drugs or both may cause him not to feel getting shot. He will rush in with almost the same speed on his part. Even if one draws and shoots in real time as fast as the guy in the video, it may well be a mutual kill situation in the end...

 

[jericksen5]

Like I said, neither chambered or unchambtered carry is stupid. It is a decision that everyone who carries needs to consider carefully before choosing because the consequences of that decision will fall on his shoulders. All I wanted to point out is that it is unwise to rule out unchambered carry out of hand and absolutize that as true for everyone and for all situations, as well as not to downplay the near certainty of a mistake being made by every gun owner some time in their lives of owning firearms.

On the videos, if one is facing a determined or crazed knife wielding attacker intent on killing you, one's one hand will not stop him from stabbing or slashing you perhaps multiple times. Adrenaline or drugs or both may cause him not to feel getting shot. He will rush in with almost the same speed on his part. Even if one draws and shoots in real time as fast as the guy in the video, it may well be a mutual kill situation in the end...

Watch the video I posted. Good guy with a gun gets a round off that injures the attacker. This clearly would not have happened had the good guy had to rack a round first.

 

[Sanserif]

Watch the video I posted. Good guy with a gun gets a round off that injures the attacker. This clearly would not have happened had the good guy had to rack a round first.

Is it the guy who fires at him as he was running away at the end of the.clip ? I didn't see anyone pull a gun out except that guy. Given the assailant was running away at that point, he would have had time to rack the slide and shoot him...

 

[jericksen5]

Is it the guy who fires at him as he was running away at the end of the.clip ? I didn't see anyone pull a gun out except that guy. Given the assailant was running away at that point, he would have had time to rack the slide and shoot him...

He doesn’t fire at him as he’s running away. He hits the guy in the arm as he’s being attacked with the machete. Probably the only thing that slowed down the machete attack enough where the good guy survived. There was no chance he would have gotten that round off had he had to slingshot the slide first. This isn’t uncommon in the least bit. I could post a ton more of these.

 

[Sanserif]

He doesn’t fire at him as he’s running away. He hits the guy in the arm as he’s being attacked with the machete. Probably the only thing that slowed down the machete attack enough where the good guy survived. There was no chance he would have gotten that round off had he had to slingshot the slide first. This isn’t uncommon in the least bit. I could post a ton more of these.

My bad - I missed seeing him draw his pistol.

I counted 4 seconds that he had before the guy reached him. Isn't it enough time for a person skilled in Israeli draw to draw and Shoot? The racking is part of the draw itself.

 

[jericksen5]

My bad - I missed seeing him draw his pistol.

I counted 4 seconds that he had before the guy reached him. Isn't it enough time for a person skilled in Israeli draw to draw and Shoot? The racking is part of the draw itself.

No, not for most. When do you decide to start the clock on him exactly? When the guy starts slashing his coworker with the machete? I imagine this isn’t a common occurrence, so although the good guy is armed, you can see he spends most of that time just processing what the fuck is even going on. By the time he realizes what is happening, the bad guy is already on him with the machete.

Unless you’re walking around 24/7 on edge trying to identify everything as a threat or not (impossible not to mention exhausting and miserable), it’s safe to say you’ll not be immediately ready to rock and roll as soon as the threat appears.

 

[Sanserif]

No, not for most. When do you decide to start the clock on him exactly? When the guy starts slashing his coworker with the machete? I imagine this isn’t a common occurrence, so although the good guy is armed, you can see he spends most of that time just processing what the fuck is even going on. By the time he realizes what is happening, the bad guy is already on him with the machete.

Unless you’re walking around 24/7 on edge trying to identify everything as a threat or not (impossible not to mention exhausting and miserable), it’s safe to say you’ll not be immediately ready to rock and roll as soon as the threat appears.

You make fair points. It isn't an ideal scenario by any means. However this guy.who.is not actually trained to be skilled in israeli draw and is actualy even against it, did an experiment and found it took only an average of 0.3 seconds longer than carrying chambered. So if one is trained and is well practiced in Israeli draw, he could conceivably pull off the shot in time to shoot the attacker even if he took an equal time navigating the OODA loop as that guy. In fact given that Israeli draw ends with both hands gripping the pistol he could even be possibly more accurate and hit center mass instead of the arm?

https://pistol-training.com/archives/219

 

[jericksen5]

You make fair points. It isn't an ideal scenario by any means. However this guy.who.is not actually trained to be skilled in israeli draw and is actualy even against it, did an experiment and found it took only an average of 0.3 seconds longer than carrying chambered. So if one is trained and is well practiced in Israeli draw, he could conceivably pull off the shot in time to shoot the attacker even if he took an equal time navigating the OODA loop as that guy. In fact given that Israeli draw ends with both hands gripping the pistol he could even be possibly more accurate and hit center mass instead of the arm?

https://pistol-training.com/archives/219

Rewatch that video. There is probably zero chance this gentleman would have been able to chamber a round.

 

[Sanserif]

Rewatch that video. There is probably zero chance this gentleman would have been able to chamber a round.

Whatever it is, it is good that he managed to drive him off without sustaining too debilitating injuries.

 

[terrapin]

No, not for most. When do you decide to start the clock on him exactly? When the guy starts slashing his coworker with the machete? I imagine this isn’t a common occurrence, so although the good guy is armed, you can see he spends most of that time just processing what the fuck is even going on. By the time he realizes what is happening, the bad guy is already on him with the machete.

Unless you’re walking around 24/7 on edge trying to identify everything as a threat or not (impossible not to mention exhausting and miserable), it’s safe to say you’ll not be immediately ready to rock and roll as soon as the threat appears.

It is easy to underestimate the advantage the criminal has over the would be victim. They are psychologically prepared amped up and going for the element of surprise.

That is a lot of cards stacked against somebody going to get groceries or some other ordinary task.

 

[jericksen5]

It is easy to underestimate the advantage the criminal has over the would be victim. They are psychologically prepared amped up and going for the element of surprise.

That is a lot of cards stacked against somebody going to get groceries or some other ordinary task.

No doubt about it. The element of surprise is such a massive advantage that almost always favors a predator/bad guy.

Good guy armed civilians though can also use surprise to their advantage to turn the tides. A bit of a tangent, but this is why I generally think open carry is a bad idea, whether is legal in your area or not. Same for wearing “tactical” branded clothing or slapping 2A stickers on your car. Those are signals to a predator that you may be a threat. And sometimes that’s a deterrent, and other times it may just make you the first target.