Fedor Emelianenko's guard

I would point out that because of his background, the guard wouldn't have been taught to him as something distinct from reversals and standups. Fedor often reversed as people were passing, which makes a lot of sense for a sport where turtling is common. He didn't sweep nog, but he sure as hell reversed him, and was able to use his guard to make space pretty consistently.
 
You're already wrong. No style "owns" a technique in most cases, so 90% of the time it doesn't make sense to say that technique X or position Y is from a particular style. Judo for example, while having far less ground grappling than BJJ, includes a lot of closed guard to the extent that guys are grappling on the ground.

Even in BJJ, closed guard isn't much favored anymore. For example in sport competition, very very few competitors use a closed guard as their primary guard. BTT guys (Sperry, Bustamante, and many of the Carlson Gracie lineage in general who teach BJJ for fighting) don't teach closed guard at all.

As for Fedor's guard, he does have a good armbar, no denying that. I don't know about anything aside from that, I really haven't seen him doing much from his guard besides the armbar. Many Judo and Sambo guys have a decent armbar from the guard, often it's their main or only attack from there so they become very good at that one thing. But I don't mean to generalize, many might have more developed guards, or a better A move, or might not be good at anything at all from that position.

Discalimer: these are all generalizations, and that is my intent.

I don't know that that's really true. It depends on how you define 'primary guard', but guys like Roger, Xande, Calasans, Braulio, Sousa, Clark Gracie, Galvao, and Kron have all used closed guard often and to great effect in recent years. I think when we don't see closed guard that's as much about the top guy not allowing it as it's so damn hard to break with an elite player.
 
I would point out that because of his background, the guard wouldn't have been taught to him as something distinct from reversals and standups. Fedor often reversed as people were passing, which makes a lot of sense for a sport where turtling is common. He didn't sweep nog, but he sure as hell reversed him, and was able to use his guard to make space pretty consistently.

Yep. This is why sweep points but no points for reversals is so dumb.
 
never once got ko'd via ground and pound.... had a ton of arm bar submissions ... and was known for being to hard to keep down

the GOAT is the GOAT because the GOAT is the GOAT

Fedor is overrated and is a product of the time he fought in.

Great fighter but not the goat.

Gsp or a sliva are above fedar
 
As a Combat Sambo competitor i'll chime in:

1.- Closed guard is illegal in both sport sambo and combat sambo.
2.- Any sambo player knows how to use closed guard to some extent.
3.- The concept of "guard" is a BJJ one. It name implies you are "guarded".
4.- The reason as to why closed guard is illegal in sambo, is because under the sambo ruleset you are essentially pinning yourself and conceding defeat.
5.- In sambo, the super-holy end-all-be-all "guard" is a transitory position between:
a) Submitting your opponent
b) Sweeping your opponent
c) Standing up
d) Getting immobilized
e) Getting smashed

Fedor got submitted once in his carreer, and when he got reckless against a BJJ World Champion who smashes BJJ World Champions.

Anyone who says his ground game is bad or average is either a troll or ignorant.
 
I think we will see the best guard when Kron starts to fight in MMA. With the help of bjj Genius Rickson!
 
never once got ko'd via ground and pound.... had a ton of arm bar submissions ... and was known for being to hard to keep down

the GOAT is the GOAT because the GOAT is the GOAT

also never once swept anyone from the guard, and got his guard passed pretty much every time he was put on his back. so what's your point?

the fact that he was the greatest heavyweight fighter and dominated the sport for almost a decade has nothing to do with him having a shitty guard. him being arguably the greatest of all time doesn't mean he was the greatest of all time in fucking everything.
 
also never once swept anyone from the guard, and got his guard passed pretty much every time he was put on his back. so what's your point?

the fact that he was the greatest heavyweight fighter and dominated the sport for almost a decade has nothing to do with him having a shitty guard. him being arguably the greatest of all time doesn't mean he was the greatest of all time in fucking everything.

100% agree.

Fedor's guard was trash, the rest of his game was very dangerous though and he did a decent job of avoiding being on his back.

It's like Anderson Silva's Wrestling. Not very good IMO, but he has done a great job so far of avoiding having a straight wrestling battle against most people.
 
As a Combat Sambo competitor i'll chime in:

1.- Closed guard is illegal in both sport sambo and combat sambo.
2.- Any sambo player knows how to use closed guard to some extent.
3.- The concept of "guard" is a BJJ one. It name implies you are "guarded".
4.- The reason as to why closed guard is illegal in sambo, is because under the sambo ruleset you are essentially pinning yourself and conceding defeat.
5.- In sambo, the super-holy end-all-be-all "guard" is a transitory position between:
a) Submitting your opponent
b) Sweeping your opponent
c) Standing up
d) Getting immobilized
e) Getting smashed

Fedor got submitted once in his carreer, and when he got reckless against a BJJ World Champion who smashes BJJ World Champions.

Anyone who says his ground game is bad or average is either a troll or ignorant.

What kind of reversals are common in Sambo? Sweeps, escapes, stand ups, etc.
 
also never once swept anyone from the guard, and got his guard passed pretty much every time he was put on his back. so what's your point?

the fact that he was the greatest heavyweight fighter and dominated the sport for almost a decade has nothing to do with him having a shitty guard. him being arguably the greatest of all time doesn't mean he was the greatest of all time in fucking everything.

while I agree he wasn't known for his sweeps and guard retention... but addressing the points I made, does that not make a guard good?

sometimes I don't give a shit if I don't sweep some monster smashing me from my guard, all I care about is not getting mushed up with strikes by clicnhing up, staying mobile and throwing strikes from the bottom, that to me is a good guard...its not a grappling match, you don't need to sweep all the time, sometimes that can be even impossible in certain situations at specific times

chilling out, clinching up, avoiding getting ktfo and standing back up to me = a G.O.A.T worthy guard
 
also never once swept anyone from the guard, and got his guard passed pretty much every time he was put on his back. so what's your point?

the fact that he was the greatest heavyweight fighter and dominated the sport for almost a decade has nothing to do with him having a shitty guard. him being arguably the greatest of all time doesn't mean he was the greatest of all time in fucking everything.

Because who sweeps anyone in MMA? A study on sweeps in MMA found 90 in 1438 fights. Almost no one uses the guard to reverse position in MMA. BJJ black belts included. You can watch a whole year of UFCs and see maybe 2.

Guard retention doesn't really matter either, because passing the guard doesn't score three points. Why prevent the pass? There is no judging criteria for passing the guard or what position you are in? If you can close space and limit your opponent from striking effectively in side control then that is just as good as guard.

Also if you reverse from side control it counts the same as doing it from guard, so why would it make sense to try and keep someone in your guard if you can reverse from side control or turtle. Full guard and half guard are really bad positions for the bottom man in wrestling because it is very difficult to get off your back with the other person between your legs.

So maybe his guard is crappy, but how would you know based on watching MMA fights? Fedora never competed in a sport where maintaining guard mattered. In the Nogueira fights he had his guard passed twice and both times got a reversal in under about 5 seconds. Which was probably a more effective ground game than maintaining guard and eating heavy punches which Nogueira's did for large portions of the fight. Against Arona he was mounted several times, but that was a screwy Fight under the RINGS promotion where no striking to the head on the ground was allowed. What's the point of mount then? I'd prefer side control or half guard where you can at least strike the body.
 
while I agree he wasn't known for his sweeps and guard retention... but addressing the points I made, does that not make a guard good?

sometimes I don't give a shit if I don't sweep some monster smashing me from my guard, all I care about is not getting mushed up with strikes by clicnhing up, staying mobile and throwing strikes from the bottom, that to me is a good guard...its not a grappling match, you don't need to sweep all the time, sometimes that can be even impossible in certain situations at specific times

chilling out, clinching up, avoiding getting ktfo and standing back up to me = a G.O.A.T worthy guard

you're missing the point. he didn't get hurt from the guard because his guard was passed by everyone that actually attempted to do it. name one fight where he was on his back and his opponent actually tried to hurt him, other than mark colemand who left his arms by fedor's neck, fully extending, begging to get armbarred, only to be shocked when he actually did.

by your definition, pretty much everyone has the GOAT guard then, because there are a million people out there with the same ability. you're grasping at straws here - he wasn't good at keeping his guard and he wasn't good at sweeping people, yet you go off on anyone that criticizes his guard. if you can't keep your guard, it's not a great guard. it doesn't mean you aren't a great fighter, but it does mean that your guard isn't great. there really isn't much debate here.
 
Because who sweeps anyone in MMA? A study on sweeps in MMA found 90 in 1438 fights. Almost no one uses the guard to reverse position in MMA. BJJ black belts included. You can watch a whole year of UFCs and see maybe 2.
so you agree, his guard isn't spectacular, or above average then?

Guard retention doesn't really matter either, because passing the guard doesn't score three points. Why prevent the pass? There is no judging criteria for passing the guard or what position you are in? If you can close space and limit your opponent from striking effectively in side control then that is just as good as guard.

you just wrote that guard retention doesn't matter in an mma fight. this is your argument as to why fedor's guard is good, despite getting passed all the time. let me run this by you one more time: you just stated getting your guard passed in an MMA fight doesn't matter.

Also if you reverse from side control it counts the same as doing it from guard, so why would it make sense to try and keep someone in your guard if you can reverse from side control or turtle. Full guard and half guard are really bad positions for the bottom man in wrestling because it is very difficult to get off your back with the other person between your legs.
he had good reverals, indeed. who is denying that? and how does having good reversals when people pass your guard make your guard any better? i can't believe how far people are stretching in this debate. i say his guard is shit, and you have to disagree with me, but offer no argument other than the guard doesn't matter and fedor never needed it... which somehow makes his guard world class now.

So maybe his guard is crappy, but how would you know based on watching MMA fights? Fedora never competed in a sport where maintaining guard mattered. In the Nogueira fights he had his guard passed twice and both times got a reversal in under about 5 seconds. Which was probably a more effective ground game than maintaining guard and eating heavy punches which Nogueira's did for large portions of the fight. Against Arona he was mounted several times, but that was a screwy Fight under the RINGS promotion where no striking to the head on the ground was allowed. What's the point of mount then? I'd prefer side control or half guard where you can at least strike the body.

i would know by watching the fights in which he used it. again, being better at reversing someone once they got into sidecontrol doesn't somehow make your shitty guard any less shitty. it just means you are good at reversals. or should we consider mirko crocop's guard to be at the highest level too, because he knocked everyone out back in the day?
 
you just wrote that guard retention doesn't matter in an mma fight. this is your argument as to why fedor's guard is good, despite getting passed all the time. let me run this by you one more time: you just stated getting your guard passed in an MMA fight doesn't matter.

he had good reverals, indeed. who is denying that? and how does having good reversals when people pass your guard make your guard any better? i can't believe how far people are stretching in this debate. i say his guard is shit, and you have to disagree with me, but offer no argument other than the guard doesn't matter and fedor never needed it... which somehow makes his guard world class now.

i would know by watching the fights in which he used it. again, being better at reversing someone once they got into sidecontrol doesn't somehow make your shitty guard any less shitty. it just means you are good at reversals. or should we consider mirko crocop's guard to be at the highest level too, because he knocked everyone out back in the day?

His guard was passed by Arona, Nogueira, Bigfoot... Who else? They are all BJJ blackbelts. Arona was at the time one of the best BJJ'ers of the time, and Nogueira's MMA BJJ was also spectacular. Bigfoot is huge and passed from halfguard after a reversal.

You are really trying to stretch it out by saying his guard is shitty.

I'll use reverse psychology so that you MAYBE understand how ridiculous your statements are:

Miyao's guard sucks. He never gets off his back. He never tries to standup and doesn't turtle, even when he can. Instead of going to a safe turtle, he spins around, goes inverted (LOL, self-pin) and goes to closed guard again. And then he sits for ridiculous amounts of time while holding an opponents leg instead of just standing up. It's shitty beyond shitty, he never escapes the pin. Oh, and nevermind when he goes for that leg-knot-Berimbolo thing, just to take his back... which doesn't score ANY points and is useless because there are no chokes in sport sambo.

See what i did there?
That's the way a sambo/judo guy would think and judge Miyao's guard if they disregarded any other style's specifics and rulesets or were just haters.

Wether you like it or not, he got plenty of submissions and has a very active bottom game which is effective in sambo and MMA.
 
His guard was passed by Arona, Nogueira, Bigfoot... Who else? They are all BJJ blackbelts. Arona was at the time one of the best BJJ'ers of the time, and Nogueira's MMA BJJ was also spectacular. Bigfoot is huge and passed from halfguard after a reversal.

You are really trying to stretch it out by saying his guard is shitty.
well, who else has put him on his back? mark coleman, who got to mount and backmount, kevin randleman, who also passed (well, sort of), mark hunt, who didn't really actively pass but still spent like 5 minutes in sidecontrol, and HMC. i don't think he passed the guard, i guess that's pretty great.

I'll use reverse psychology so that you MAYBE understand how ridiculous your statements are:

Miyao's guard sucks. He never gets off his back. He never tries to standup and doesn't turtle, even when he can. Instead of going to a safe turtle, he spins around, goes inverted (LOL, self-pin) and goes to closed guard again. And then he sits for ridiculous amounts of time while holding an opponents leg instead of just standing up. It's shitty beyond shitty, he never escapes the pin. Oh, and nevermind when he goes for that leg-knot-Berimbolo thing, just to take his back... which doesn't score ANY points and is useless because there are no chokes in sport sambo.
that wasn't exactly reverse psychology, but i'll play along.

miyaos get sweeps from the guard, they get submissions from the guard, and their guard is never passed. i never once mentioned any points, in any of my posts. the no chokes part is also pretty unnecessary, because all my points stand in an MMA environment, and that one is just dumb.

sorry, but you truly didn't think this through.

That's the way a sambo/judo guy would think and judge Miyao's guard if they disregarded any other style's specifics and rulesets or were just haters.

Wether you like it or not, he got plenty of submissions and has a very active bottom game which is effective in sambo and MMA.
no, that's how someone without any idea of the guard would view their guard.

you begin your reasoning with a flaw, trying to asses their guard from the point of view of someone who prefers not to play the guard or views it as an inferior position. get this: the fact that fedor's sambo / judo background plays a large role in him using a lazy guard that gets passed a lot, and the fact that he compensates for it by having great reversals once it's passed does not make his guard any better.

using this reasoning is exactly the same as saying that mirko filipovic's guard is great, because he holds on for dear life until they stand him up and he kicks his opponent in the face, knocking him out cold. he did both of those things very effectively and he was an amazing fighter, but his guard was still crap.

being good at the game without the excessive use of your guard does not make you inferior. but it doesn't automatically make your guard any good, either. there really is no other way to say this, to be honest. if you can't see that, we don't have much else to discuss here.
 
Most of the time Fedor played on the bottom he waiting to try to sweep or reverse during a transition. That was his game.

A lot of Fedor's success was how ridiculously mobile and quick his hips were for a HW. Guy looked like an accountant struggling with alcoholism, but his movement was ridiculous.
 
so you agree, his guard isn't spectacular, or above average then?



you just wrote that guard retention doesn't matter in an mma fight. this is your argument as to why fedor's guard is good, despite getting passed all the time. let me run this by you one more time: you just stated getting your guard passed in an MMA fight doesn't matter.


he had good reverals, indeed. who is denying that? and how does having good reversals when people pass your guard make your guard any better? i can't believe how far people are stretching in this debate. i say his guard is shit, and you have to disagree with me, but offer no argument other than the guard doesn't matter and fedor never needed it... which somehow makes his guard world class now.



i would know by watching the fights in which he used it. again, being better at reversing someone once they got into sidecontrol doesn't somehow make your shitty guard any less shitty. it just means you are good at reversals. or should we consider mirko crocop's guard to be at the highest level too, because he knocked everyone out back in the day?

Fedor had a better shot of getting to his feet or on top from side control than from guard. The way he exploded and pushed Prime Nog off him was spectacular and he would not have been able to replicate that from guard. In fact I doubt ANYONE would have been able to sweep Nog from guard in MMA back then. Except maybe Werdum?

Fedor seemed content to go for his hail mary armbar and if it failed he would reverse from side control. The fact that he could reverse Nog back then means he was confident he could pretty much do it to anyone.

Things obviously changed, his opponents got bigger (or atleast skilled big opponents) and he neglected his ground game in favour of overhand rights.

His game reminded me of Frank Shamrock who used to let his guard get passed because it was easier to reverse than sweep.

BJ Penn stated that he takes more damage from guard, half guard than from side control, especially in his GSP fight.

So whats the point of having a decent guard when you will still find it difficult to sweep no matter how good you get and it will always be more economical to power reverse from side control?
 
also never once swept anyone from the guard, and got his guard passed pretty much every time he was put on his back. so what's your point?

the fact that he was the greatest heavyweight fighter and dominated the sport for almost a decade has nothing to do with him having a shitty guard. him being arguably the greatest of all time doesn't mean he was the greatest of all time in fucking everything.

To be fair I dont think Roger Gracie ever swept from guard in MMA. If he couldn't then why should Fedor be expected to? Sweeping from guard in MMA or even No gi is hard as fuck. Keenan went over it in his Stuart Cooper recording. I think Fedor's strategy of going for dangerous armbars and either A) submitting or B) reversing from the fail was not exactly a bad idea.

Today in the UFC we see many more standups from side control than from guard.
 
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