Fedor Emelianenko's guard

[Supereem]

Well, it's based mostly on an interview I read with Bustamante, but if you watch Sperry's old instructional videos he chides people for hanging on to closed guard when your opponent is standing.

Their reasoning is that they don't think it's optimal for fighting to hang out in closed guard. In my experience, closed guard is the best guard for keeping someone in your guard. Open guards are better for attacking and standing up. Not that you can't attack from closed guard, but it's a defensively-minded guard. Sometimes there's a place for that.

They would play closed guard when they pulled guard in MMA. Like Arona against Rampage or Busta against Hendo. They would have to keep it closed to keep the fight on the ground. For the most part they fought a "losing" fight with the exception of a close triangle and armbar respectively.

That type of game was not what Fedor was about though. He should have been expected to play such a game.

 

[randomg1t]

BJ Penn stated that he takes more damage from guard, half guard than from side control, especially in his GSP fight.

So whats the point of having a decent guard when you will still find it difficult to sweep no matter how good you get and it will always be more economical to power reverse from side control?

funny you should mention penn, who did in fact have a monstrous guard, though he rarely used it in mma.

i don't recall him ever saying that, but fine. like the rest of the people i've been talking to in this thread, you seem to be mistaking the strategy of using guard with the ability to play guard. preferring to be passed does not mean you actually have an awesome guard. it just means you prefer to be passed.

To be fair I dont think Roger Gracie ever swept from guard in MMA. If he couldn't then why should Fedor be expected to? Sweeping from guard in MMA or even No gi is hard as fuck. Keenan went over it in his Stuart Cooper recording. I think Fedor's strategy of going for dangerous armbars and either A) submitting or B) reversing from the fail was not exactly a bad idea.

Today in the UFC we see many more standups from side control than from guard.

again, who said he was expected to sweep? but he didn't sweep, didn't really submit anyone known for their groundgame from there, couldn't defend the guardpass, and in reality rarely stood up from the guard, too. so what exactly did make his guard so great? the fact that he let everyone through it and then bumped them over? that isn't very sound reasoning.

a couple of guys here were claiming that despite the evidence to the contrary, fedor actually had an awesome guard, because a) he was the GOAT and so we can't possibly criticize him and b) his guard got neutralized by everyone because he didn't want to use it. both of those points are stupid.

now i'm out of this debate because i'm tired of explaining the same thing over and over. for anyone thinking i'm wrong, here it is: i concede, fedor's guard was a thing of legend. it was so awesome it got passed all the time and it led to the armbar of such great groundfighters as mark coleman and HMC.

 

[Ckaa]

Roger took the back from the guard. Back takes and sweeps go hand to hand in a good guard work.

And being more safe in side control than in guard... Yeah if you have great sub defense and thanks to the unified rules which forbid the use of knees to the head... sure.

I'm ok with Randomg1t, having a great guard is the ability to strike, sweep, standup and never get passed.Being able to reverse from side is great but it's not guard work.

 

[fishbane]

BJ Penn stated that he takes more damage from guard, half guard than from side control, especially in his GSP fight.

So whats the point of having a decent guard when you will still find it difficult to sweep no matter how good you get and it will always be more economical to power reverse from side control?

Exactly. Guard retention in MMA isn't as important as in BJJ. Fedor never looked like her cared if he had his guard passed. Full and half guard aren't that great for the same reasons they aren't good in wrestling. With your opponents body between your legs it is difficult to get off your back and stand up. Also sweeps in MMA are extrememely rare. The MMA database watched 1438 fights and only observed 90 sweeps - http://www.mmafightdb.com/how-effective-are-bjj-sweeps-in-mma/. More people stand or get reversals.

So that's the problem with saying Fedor's gaurd sucked because it got passed or that it sucked because he didn't sweep from it. He was good at reversals so if he was looking to reverse his opponent it didn't matter if he kept him in his guard or not. His guard did what it was supposed to in MMA. He used it effectively to keep opponents from raining down punches and he was able to attack and finish submissions on opponents who were able to take him down and hold him.

He has 3 armbar finishes from his back. Arm bars from guard in MMA might be more rare than sweeps. MMA fight db observed 43 armbars in 1127 fights no doubt many from positions other than guard - [http://www.mmafightdb.com/top-10-mma-submissions/. Nick Diaz who is considered to have a very good MMA guard has 5 finishes off his back; four armbars and 1 gogoplata which was later changed to a no contest. Fedors three finishes from his back may be more than any non-bjj black belt and more than quite a few black belts.

 

[100%Jiu-Jitsu]

In his prime, Fedor displayed elite grappling skills from his back. If he had competed in sport BJJ, his natural attributes and talent would have allowed him to develop a phenomenal guard. But because he focused on Combat Sambo and MMA, he masterfully employed a different style of grappling, which suited his goals.

The problem with asking whether Fedor had a good "guard," is that the question implies that to be a universal criterion for grappling skill. In reality, the concept of the "guard" and the obsession with not having it "passed" are hallmarks of sport BJJ

 

[JustOnce]

100% agree.

Fedor's guard was trash, the rest of his game was very dangerous though and he did a decent job of avoiding being on his back.

It's like Anderson Silva's Wrestling. Not very good IMO, but he has done a great job so far of avoiding having a straight wrestling battle against most people.

Compares the wrestling of olympic level Judoka(if he were in other country than Russia)/Sambo hall of famer(there are like six people in it) with a guy like Anderson is just criminal.

 

[Gandhi]

Well, it's based mostly on an interview I read with Bustamante, but if you watch Sperry's old instructional videos he chides people for hanging on to closed guard when your opponent is standing.

Their reasoning is that they don't think it's optimal for fighting to hang out in closed guard. In my experience, closed guard is the best guard for keeping someone in your guard. Open guards are better for attacking and standing up. Not that you can't attack from closed guard, but it's a defensively-minded guard. Sometimes there's a place for that.

Goo post but sperry def had quite a bit of closed guard in his old school vale Tudo series on vhs. He did like to punch his way out of a closed guard, so u got that part right. Maybe not over reliant on closed guard is a better way to put it.

 

[MaxMMA]

honestly, I wish I could train people to not use closed guard.

I met one korean guy that did not know how to do closed guard and that was pretty awesome.

You can't be serious.

 

[flikerstance]

fedor has a good kimura won a few fights by kimura i feel with his short legs in comparison of other hws he competes against he should only be in clsoed guard if he is trying t kimura

but get real guys fedor couldnt use open guard anyways he doesnt have great hip movent off his back and dudes a heavy weight u honestly think hes gonna invert from reverse de la riva and take the back?

 

[B0l0joe]

this just in...the GOAT was average

Thanks to whoever resurrected this thread so I could see this goofy reply. Obviously I did not say Fedor was average but nice try twisting my words.

A lot has already been said and i think it’s obvious Fedor didn’t use a bjj style guard. When he was on his back he had a corpse guard and I don’t ever recall him closing his guard against anyone. However he had very quick hips and could snatch arm bars very quickly when the opportunity arose. When Nog passed his guard (quite easily it seemed) Fedor would bridge like a mofo and Nog couldn’t keep him down.

Fedor as a grappler was very exciting and I loved his gnp mixed in with his throws. Shame he turned into a brawler later on in his career.

 

[B0l0joe]

I remember there was an interview with Rizzo and big Nog back in the day. They were asked about Fedor’s performance against Mirko and Nog joked that when Fedor tried to mount from side control it looked like a guy trying to get on a horse.
Even though Nog was probably a bit salty that he had been beaten down three times I still found that quote funny.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

fedors guard sucks. HE doest stop guard passings, if anything he stalls, and sweeps are based on power, mostly reverses.

And the only times he has faced an elite grappler was nog, and he was never on his back. All the other times he faces top grapplers he was destroy.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Thanks to whoever resurrected this thread so I could see this goofy reply. Obviously I did not say Fedor was average but nice try twisting my words.

A lot has already been said and i think it’s obvious Fedor didn’t use a bjj style guard. When he was on his back he had a corpse guard and I don’t ever recall him closing his guard against anyone. However he had very quick hips and could snatch arm bars very quickly when the opportunity arose. When Nog passed his guard (quite easily it seemed) Fedor would bridge like a mofo and Nog couldn’t keep him down.

Fedor as a grappler was very exciting and I loved his gnp mixed in with his throws. Shame he turned into a brawler later on in his career.

hes got a sick amrlock from guard, but those armlocks were only conected vs people who were not such good grapplers. Save coleman, but coleman has always being pro to get sub.

 

[SandisLL]

Of course guard sucks.
Of course elite grapplers in their PRIME's apogee appeared in MMA<45>.
Or elite grappler now is Askern, for example? He isn't and NEVER WAS world's top 4 grappler in his weight class, U.S isn't all world.
And elite striker is Conor or Sage?

If there punches and kicks are allowed, then it isn't pure grappling bout, so guard cannot be like in pure grappling or actions too, because counter action that eated Askern IS just one from standart tools not unique approach.
Interestingly, in what state this elite grappler might be if instead of Jorge this was Buakaw or Cosmo ? Or one from top 30 of world's boxers in his weight class....


You saw in MMA Kyle or Karelin for example or even Kimura in his real PRIME? No. And Kyle was one of beauties of the world that even were created.
BTW I think that Sage and Ben are good guys with nice technique but art requires sometimes to eat...

The difference between for example Marciano and Ben/ Conor is that Marciano knew when his PRIME was ower. Rare skill.

 

[I WILL CUT YOU]

And the only times he has faced an elite grappler was nog, and he was never on his back.

 

[yetanother]

Or one from top 30 of world's boxers in his weight class....

Since when are boxers masters of flying knees?

 

[SandisLL]

Since when are boxers masters of flying knees?

They punch to quickly, that's reason why with a just few takedowns in flowchart might be not enough for MMA.

You imagine that they don't watch opponent's previous bouts and don't prepare counter actions flowcharts?

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Did he ever play guard?

 

[yetanother]

They punch to quickly, that's reason why with a just few takedowns in flowchart might be not enough for MMA.

You English is too broken for me too understand that sentence.