Heated Twitter exchange between Valtellini & Malignaggi about sparring.

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It goes on for a little bit more, but I got tired. Yes I'm bored today.

So what are your opinions? Who's right? Or are boxing and kickboxing/MuayThai sparring just different?

I can see some of the benefits of going pretty hard with headgear and 16oz gloves punching only, but I know personally if I went 100% clashing shins, knees or god forbid elbows all the time, I'd be crippled in bed half of the training camp lol.
 
My 10 second scan is that the second guy has the right of it when it comes to the consequences.

The problem is, given those dangers, how do you effectively prepare a fighter to gain victory in a (striking) contest?

Across history, the answers many martial arts have given to that question start one way then became increasingly degenerated over time, so it obviously is not a trivial proposition.
 
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I believe in going hard for a set amount of rounds leading up to the fight with an understanding between parties about how it's going. If you're high profile, maybe flying someone in like pro boxers (I'd imagine lol), but outside of that it's all technical sparring for me. Though sometimes sessions do get a little rough rowdy if it's with someone you know well.. this is coming from an amateur who does Muay Thai. We don't take nearly the same amount of accumulated head trauma as boxing/kickboxing simply because the amount of techniques that are allowed. Hell I even think we might take less punches to the head than some MMA fights.

That being said I've been to Thai gyms that do hands only sparring once or twice a week and go very hard with 18oz and headgear.

I think boxing or /Dutch European kickboxing guys have a much rougher mentality than us when it comes to gunning for the KO, defense tends to come first before KOs (there are KO artist exceptions) in Muay Thai with teeps, off balancing, scoring kicks, avoiding or fighting in the clinch etc, but then again 25%+ of a MT fight is wrestling in the clinch and we go pretty hard at that so I guess it depends.
 
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I guess they're both right? Boxers don't fight as often as kickboxers and muay thai fighters so it makes sense to prepare with hard sparring.

On the other hard if you try to KO one another in muay thai and kickboxing... chances are you will not fight at all. Bigger risk of eating a clean punch to the chin than in boxing.
 
About twice in a camp (midway) do I go hard and try to "win". Going in getting KO'd day in and out is a good way to get fucked. Guys that do that end up not fighting anyways, their sparring sessions are fights and they burn out before their events.

Yes you should keep the intensity the same, but not KO'ing your partner. If you're already landing relatively clean, all you need to do is put weight behind it to seal the deal.
 
I'm more with Paulie on this.

The hard cold reality is that getting punched in the head causes differing degrees of brain trauma. The harder you spar the higher the likelihood of you developing some sort of trauma to the brain. If any of you guys have experienced headaches on occasion after sparring - that is a physical noticeable side effect from receiving trauma to the brain. Most of the time the damage goes unnoticed or without any immediate physical consequence. After all the damage is done as it accumulates in the longer term. Also genetics does seem to play a major role - as some guys do not have any significant brain damage later on in life whereas others do.

That said - that is the reality of full contact competition. If you are looking to compete in a full contact sport you have to come to terms with it. Like Paulie said if you're looking to avoid brain trauma in an activity like boxing/kickboxing where you have to give your opponent trauma to the brain/body to win - you probably should be doing something else.

I think Paulie also has a point when he says hard sparring is a requirement physically but also mentally - so that mentally your mind adapts to it. I don't think he worded it to great probably because of twitter character restriction but hard sparring does give you the mentality that is required in a competition or a fight. You need to go in with that mentality that hard sparring provides because at the end of the day you can't be worrying about brain trauma because your opponent won't be worrying about giving you brain trauma. Sure it's good to train smart to prolong your career - but a better way to prolong your career is learning how to be defensively sound so that you are never in a position where you take lots of damage. Take a page off of Mayweather's book.

Also something that Valtellini doesn't mention is that being KO'd in sparring is not the only way you can shorten your career. Getting hit too frequently regardless of how hard or light you are sparring also contributes to brain trauma, can shorten your career and kill your chin. Also the longer your career the more brain trauma you're likely to receive. Training smart is not what I would do - making sure I'm never in a position to get hit cleanly (i.e. being defensively sound) is where I'd be focusing my energy.

You can take all necessary precautions and train extremely smart/safe minimizing the amount of brain trauma you take in training but that can all be negated by one or two grueling fights or just simply being KO'd in a fight by the better fighter. What I am saying is - training smart/safer might not even make a difference - sure it might allow you to prolong your career but it also means that you over that prolonged career you will be taking more brain trauma.


The bottom line is - if you are worried about brain trauma in an environment where you are required to give trauma to win - it's best to just train for fitness or simply train in a style where you won't get that.
 
Valtelinni is right. What's more is as soon as I saw the thread title, I knew that Valetellini was going to make the arguments he did, and I new that Paulie would be banging on about sparring hard.

Valtelini isn't only a world champion, but he's a coach and he is a P.E. teacher. He knows this stuff better than Paulie. Paulie comes from that macho POV. He says stuff like how are you going to be able to turn it up in a real fight, but Thais very rarely spar hard and the average Thai have more fights after only about four years worth of career, than Paulie has had in his entire career.

Needing to spar hard in order to fight just isn't true. Paulie doesn't seem to understand the sort of sparring that Joe is talking about. There's this dumb idea that sparring technically doesn't hurt, if you get hit by a Thai or indeed by someone like Joe Valetellini in sparring you damn well know you got hit. They just don't hit with concussive force.

Paulie talks shit at the best of times, but the idea that someone could listen to what he's saying over Joe, who actively wants people to avoid his mistakes, is concerning for me.

While I understand the point that you can still get brain trauma either way, my response is this.

We're taught to look both ways before we cross the street, now all of us here know that we could look both ways, and still get hit by an unexpected speeing car doing something stupid.... that doesn't mean we don't look.

You should always focus on your own safety, even if you're doing something dangerous. In judo you learn to breakfall, boxing you learn to block.

It's also very annoying that Paulie is talking to Joe about training like a pussy, when Joe competes in a sport that's just as dangerous, if not more - who actually suffered a career ending injury.
 
Both are making valid points. Though, as an MMA guy, I lean much more towards Valtellini's side. The amount of guys who get injured and sit out for years at a time in MMA is staggering. Not just at the UFC level where cards are constantly being changed because of guys getting hurt, but also at the more local level where I've seen amateurs get knocked clean out by pros and never come back. One of my buddies lied about a concussion on his medical forms when he was about to be deployed because he'd been head kick KOd by a pro a few days earlier.

As with all things there needs to be a balance. However, I think the real key that no ones' talking about is defense. Sparring hard is a lot safer when you have a full defensive system that you know you can use to protect yourself. Even if you're gonna get in there and catch an ass-whooping, if your coach has taken the time to develop your defense sufficiently then you should be able to come out without taking too much damage. Hard sparring should be relatively infrequent (no more than once a week IMO), and be well-supervised, and no one should spar hard before their defense is at a high enough level. With those precautions, it can be done safely and you can develop the mentality and the ability to handle the intensity without getting beaten retarded.
 
Valtelinni is right. What's more is as soon as I saw the thread title, I knew that Valetellini was going to make the arguments he did, and I new that Paulie would be banging on about sparring hard.

Valtelini isn't only a world champion, but he's a coach and he is a P.E. teacher. He knows this stuff better than Paulie. Paulie comes from that macho POV. He says stuff like how are you going to be able to turn it up in a real fight, but Thais very rarely spar hard and the average Thai have more fights after only about four years worth of career, than Paulie has had in his entire career.

Needing to spar hard in order to fight just isn't true. Paulie doesn't seem to understand the sort of sparring that Joe is talking about. There's this dumb idea that sparring technically doesn't hurt, if you get hit by a Thai or indeed by someone like Joe Valetellini in sparring you damn well know you got hit. They just don't hit with concussive force.

Paulie talks shit at the best of times, but the idea that someone could listen to what he's saying over Joe, who actively wants people to avoid his mistakes, is concerning for me.

While I understand the point that you can still get brain trauma either way, my response is this.

We're taught to look both ways before we cross the street, now all of us here know that we could look both ways, and still get hit by an unexpected speeing car doing something stupid.... that doesn't mean we don't look.

You should always focus on your own safety, even if you're doing something dangerous. In judo you learn to breakfall, boxing you learn to block.

It's also very annoying that Paulie is talking to Joe about training like a pussy, when Joe competes in a sport that's just as dangerous, if not more - who actually suffered a career ending injury.

Usually I agree with you on everything.

The Thai's argument is not really sound. Thai's fight nearly 1 or 2 times a month. They don't spar so hard because they fight so frequently. None of us here know the rate or issues with CTE in Thai fighters in Thailand because there's so little study/research or even check ups of that sort over there. I'm guessing that it must be high seeing as they start as children (in most cases when the brain is still developing).

Do you need to spar hard to fight. I think you do. If there is any contention it's probably how often.

That example with crossing the road is a good one. But we are talking about a sport where the objective is to hurt. Brain trauma will happen in that scenario whether you want it to or not. It comes with the territory.

Also it's a bit of a double standard to talk about brain trauma and trying to negate it in training. What about the other guy you have to fight? Fuck him I suppose?

You should focus on your safety. But you should be aware that some sports aren't safe and some are less safe than others. You should also be aware that your safety will most likely be compromised in those activities.

You can take all necessary safety measures or precautions in your training but it can all be undone in one or two fights or simply being KO'd or beaten to a pulp by a better fighter.

Training with safety in mind doesn't necessarily mean you will be safe in a fight. Valtellini is talking about preparation for fighting. I think Paulie is talking a lot of sense although he is being rude.

If you want to reduce any potential brain trauma in sparring or fighting - get defensively superb so you are never in a situation that you eat clean shots.
 
Both are making valid points. Though, as an MMA guy, I lean much more towards Valtellini's side. The amount of guys who get injured and sit out for years at a time in MMA is staggering. Not just at the UFC level where cards are constantly being changed because of guys getting hurt, but also at the more local level where I've seen amateurs get knocked clean out by pros and never come back. One of my buddies lied about a concussion on his medical forms when he was about to be deployed because he'd been head kick KOd by a pro a few days earlier.

As with all things there needs to be a balance. However, I think the real key that no ones' talking about is defense. Sparring hard is a lot safer when you have a full defensive system that you know you can use to protect yourself. Even if you're gonna get in there and catch an ass-whooping, if your coach has taken the time to develop your defense sufficiently then you should be able to come out without taking too much damage. Hard sparring should be relatively infrequent (no more than once a week IMO), and be well-supervised, and no one should spar hard before their defense is at a high enough level. With those precautions, it can be done safely and you can develop the mentality and the ability to handle the intensity without getting beaten retarded.

Precisely what I'm saying. I said so in my post above although I'm glad to know that you're thinking the same way. Sparring with safety will do shit all for you in a fight.

Learning how to be defensively sound so you are never in positions where you get hit cleanly is what should be done - so you aren't taking damage to begin with.

I agree I think people shouldn't be allowed to spar until their defense is at a high enough level but unfortunately go to most gyms and that's not the case.
 
Both are right. what fits each fighter from a pure sports standpoint is different. Regardless of health issues fact is that many of the great gyms/trainers had their guys in wars regularly. krong, Wildcard, Cus D'Amato.

Both are right. Malignaggi has a point (at leats for many fighters allthough there are certainly those who do not net conbstant wars in the gym)

@AndyMaBobs Malignaggi has had a much longer career than valtellini and considering the talent pool of his sport and especially division accomplished more.

Obviously Valtellini is right about the health consequences but Malignaggi is at least in some/many cases right about the career consquences and building a fighter. Its obviously about priorities but it's not arguable that the guy who is 100% focused on in ring success will do better than the guy who isn't willing to give everything including his health. Not speaking about those fighters whose careers get cut down through wars though. It's a matter of what you value more and what you are willing to give and I say that not in a way that one philosophie is superier to the other. Each fighter has to decide that for themselves
 
Both are right. what fits each fighter from a pure sports standpoint is different. Regardless of health issues fact is that many of the great gyms/trainers had their guys in wars regularly. krong, Wildcard, Cus D'Amato.

Both are right. Malignaggi has a point (at leats for many fighters allthough there are certainly those who do not net conbstant wars in the gym)

@AndyMaBobs Malignaggi has had a much longer career than valtellini and considering the talent pool of his sport and especially division accomplished more.

Obviously Valtellini is right about the health consequences but Malignaggi is at least in some/many cases right about the career consquences and building a fighter. Its obviously about priorities but it's not arguable that the guy who is 100% focused on in ring success will do better than the guy who isn't willing to give everything including his health. Not speaking about those fighters whose careers get cut down through wars though. It's a matter of what you value more and what you are willing to give and I say that not in a way that one philosophie is superier to the other. Each fighter has to decide that for themselves

I'm not completely sure what Malignaggi's accomplishments have to do with it - my point was more that he's speaking as though Valtellini is just some dude. Although I would argue that Valtellini isbetter at his sport than Paulie is at his... although that isn't really relevant either :p


Usually I agree with you on everything.

The Thai's argument is not really sound. Thai's fight nearly 1 or 2 times a month. They don't spar so hard because they fight so frequently. None of us here know the rate or issues with CTE in Thai fighters in Thailand because there's so little study/research or even check ups of that sort over there. I'm guessing that it must be high seeing as they start as children (in most cases when the brain is still developing).

Do you need to spar hard to fight. I think you do. If there is any contention it's probably how often.

That example with crossing the road is a good one. But we are talking about a sport where the objective is to hurt. Brain trauma will happen in that scenario whether you want it to or not. It comes with the territory.

Also it's a bit of a double standard to talk about brain trauma and trying to negate it in training. What about the other guy you have to fight? Fuck him I suppose?

You should focus on your safety. But you should be aware that some sports aren't safe and some are less safe than others. You should also be aware that your safety will most likely be compromised in those activities.

You can take all necessary safety measures or precautions in your training but it can all be undone in one or two fights or simply being KO'd or beaten to a pulp by a better fighter.

Training with safety in mind doesn't necessarily mean you will be safe in a fight. Valtellini is talking about preparation for fighting. I think Paulie is talking a lot of sense although he is being rude.

If you want to reduce any potential brain trauma in sparring or fighting - get defensively superb so you are never in a situation that you eat clean shots.

It's cool man, no two people can agree on absolutely everything :p

I will give you that the CTE for Thais isn't as broadly known. I'm not sure how its a double standard to look to protect yourself in a sport, even if you're objective is to hurt the other guy. When two guys fight, then go for it, but I don't think that means that you should risk your own health in training.

I can understand Paulie's POV - but I go back to my Thai argument, now I agree with you that there's no CTE but considering they start as children, and aren't completely ruined by the time their twenty, and often continue fighitng up to 30 and sometimes passed that, often being competitive with those much younger should indicate that their methods certainly allow for a longer career.

I'd be intersted to know if theres any similarities between their sparring and the sparring of boxers lik Sugar Ray Robinson
 
Goku and Vegeta sparred hard and they seem to be okay.
 
Saenchai spars lightly and he seems to have had a pretty ok career
 


















It goes on for a little bit more, but I got tired. Yes I'm bored today.

So what are your opinions? Who's right? Or are boxing and kickboxing/MuayThai sparring just different?

I can see some of the benefits of going pretty hard with headgear and 16oz gloves punching only, but I know personally if I went 100% clashing shins, knees or god forbid elbows all the time, I'd be crippled in bed half of the training camp lol.

Gotta side with bazooka joe on this one. Obviously there is an important place for sparring, but you and your training partners aren't doing each other any good beating the crap out of each other in training
 
Valtellini should switch to BJJ and roll around in pajamas instead. Leave the combat sports to straight up killers like Paulie. If he werent blessed with such pillow fists, he would've caught multiple homicide charges due to the murderous intent behind every punch.
 
They compete in two completely different sports.
Exactly wtf? And good boxers only spar cans who can take a shot. In mma/kickboxing/MT you can get away with only going hard once in a while. I don't think you can do that in boxing when the only thing you can throw is your hands... apples and oranges arguing with each other.

The distance in boxing compared to all sports with kicking is completely different as well. You spar hard with kicks and your body is not gonna respond after a couple weeks of that.
 
I'm not completely sure what Malignaggi's accomplishments have to do with it - my point was more that he's speaking as though Valtellini is just some dude. Although I would argue that Valtellini isbetter at his sport than Paulie is at his... although that isn't really relevant either :p




It's cool man, no two people can agree on absolutely everything :p

I will give you that the CTE for Thais isn't as broadly known. I'm not sure how its a double standard to look to protect yourself in a sport, even if you're objective is to hurt the other guy. When two guys fight, then go for it, but I don't think that means that you should risk your own health in training.

I can understand Paulie's POV - but I go back to my Thai argument, now I agree with you that there's no CTE but considering they start as children, and aren't completely ruined by the time their twenty, and often continue fighitng up to 30 and sometimes passed that, often being competitive with those much younger should indicate that their methods certainly allow for a longer career.

I'd be intersted to know if theres any similarities between their sparring and the sparring of boxers lik Sugar Ray Robinson


Valtellini was good but he had a very short career in a sport that has a much smaller talent pool than boxing and in a weightclass that isn't even that deep for that sport. malignaggi fought ATG boxers for over a decade in very deep divisions and overachieved despite having no obvious physical talents (compared to other elite boxers) beside his chin earlier in his career.

Also boxers start early as well just as amateurs. Many forget that pros back when they had up to 200 fights had no to very few amateur fights nowadays boxers still have 200+ fights if you count amateur fights and amateur boxing is a deep sport with future ATGs meeting each other regularly in some cases.

Thais last into their 20s but so do boxers and looking at the average elite Thai he seems to have a shorter career than a boxer who nowadays usually competes into his early 30s in many cases even into his mid and late 30s. I can't think of a Thai who lasted into his 40s like some boxers do.

Boxers have been sparring hard for a long time. I doubt SRR sparred lightly

Saenchai spars lightly and he seems to have had a pretty ok career

Saenchai has been competing since he was probably 10 (a guess I know some Thais start even earlier) and fighting probably every other week. That goes beyond just "hard sparring". Also Thais may spar light or moderate at hardest but they seem to spart regularly in some way so basically every day. Sparring light but frequent though also seems to have advantages.

Exactly wtf? And good boxers only spar cans who can take a shot. In mma/kickboxing/MT you can get away with only going hard once in a while. I don't think you can do that in boxing when the only thing you can throw is your hands... apples and oranges arguing with each other.

The distance in boxing compared to all sports with kicking is completely different as well. You spar hard with kicks and your body is not gonna respond after a couple weeks of that.

Yes boxers more seem to know how to chose the best sparring partners and not the best fighters to spar with like MMA fighters especially often do. That's a major difference allthough MMA has become more specialized in the last few years with more specific preparation for each fighter like guys like McGregor are doing.

And saying they are sparing "cans" is dumb. You don't need to spar a champ to get hard sparring many B list fighters have been putting it on even ATG fighters 8in the gym over the years. Sparring is not a fight, every great fighter has bad days and every abd fighter has great days.

Oliver McCall mgiving Tyson enough to handle over the years is the most well known example



But boxers still sometimes spar other elite boxers it's just not the norm for good reasons. The sparring wars at Kronk gym were legendary with several ATG boxers who put on wars that were supposedly FOTY candidates. Wildcard also seems to havv hard sparring and sometiems between elite fighters.

Elite boxers spar with each other





Saying it's different sports has nothing to do with this discussion Valtellini was talking about brain damage and I dont think kcikboxers receive more brain damage than boxers they get punched to the head less often and how often does someone land clean high kicks to the head especially in sparring?
 
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