Heated Twitter exchange between Valtellini & Malignaggi about sparring.

Do boxers pay lesser fighters to spar with them? No regular muay thai fighter would want to risk hurting himself before his own fight if he's not getting paid to do so. Even Malignaggi would probably not spar 100% if there were more limbs involved.
 
I think in boxing the brain damage is more long term accumulated but the injuries are more accute in kb/muay thai.

How often do you see guys get carried out on a stretcher after a boxing match?
 
Do boxers pay lesser fighters to spar with them? No regular muay thai fighter would want to risk hurting himself before his own fight if he's not getting paid to do so. Even Malignaggi would probably not spar 100% if there were more limbs involved.

Obviously sparring partners are paid at least the ones I meant that get recruited from high level pros. At the very least they get food and travel and these things paid for and do it for the experience but high level pros pay their sparring partners.

The injuries are to the body though Valtelli ni spoke about head trauma and Dutch guys mostly spar 100% as well so that's (boxing vs kickboxing) not an argument.

I think in boxing the brain damage is more long term accumulated but the injuries are more accute in kb/muay thai.

How often do you see guys get carried out on a stretcher after a boxing match?

Is it that common in MT? I watch little MT and never see the aftermath but in kickboxing it also seems rare
 
Hard sparring is important. Very important for developing young, unseasoned fighters into killers who can work through the fire with grace and poise.

But; once that's established in a guy, it's ok to take it easy on the hard rounds. Save the trauma and work on timing and range with medium level sparring. There's a lot of good, professional fighters who are training this way. They'll be the first to tell you, "I already know how to fight".
 
Elite boxers spar with each other


A little bit ironic posting this considering one guy can barely string two sentences together and the other almost died from brain trauma and can now hardly speak or move, and needs care 24/7:




So many retired pro boxers who either have mental problems, are addicts, alcoholics, can't speak or just messed up cognition wise after their career it's legitimately overwhelming. When someone does not show signs of mental decline it's a surprise. The rest are conveniently swept under the rug.

I think it's a cop out claming that if they don't want brain trauma they shouldn't box or spar at all. Yes, obviously it's a dangerous sport and "accidents" happens, but there is a responsible and an irresponsible way to do things. There's a fine line between limiting danger, preparing a fighter and having them ready for when the going gets tough.

This would be irresponsible:


This is obviously exaggerated, but simular shit happens in so many gyms, especially boxing gyms. Guys trying to hurt and KO guys that are not on their level even. It's part of the mentality many places.

You can't really blame the fighters, well to some extent, but any fighter with gritt doesn't want to look like a pussy. If the sparring escalates, you escalate. It's the coaches job, those in the know, to control that shit. Most of these guys start boxing when they are kids, they have no real clue. We've heard a little bit about brain damage, but no one REALLY believes it will happen to them. That's just human psyche. Especially guys with good chins who can deal with punches, they just go and go. Young guys feel invincible. Sometimes you have to protect them from themselves (and especially their ego). It's like death, we do everything we can to not acknowledge it.

Anyyyyway, yes there are risks, but it's about minimizing those risk. As some others have said in this thread, controlling the sparring and putting the hammer down on guys looking for the KO (so no one looks like they quit), matching guys to spar that are at the same level, teach defense before all, do a lot of drilling and slowly build them up.

Still, with all this, it's important to recognise that fighting can be pretty brutal.
 
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This is how I spar. All speed and no power. Add in power if you know they're going to block it etc. I immediately pull back the moment I know I'm going to hit them clean. What kind of asshole are you to still go 100% knowing full well that you're going to land the shot? Especially a head kicking shot. I put in enough power for them to respect my punches especially for the assholes who just walk through them.

I always throw the deadly shots half ass. I know I can throw them. Drills/pad works is when you go 100%. Sparring should be for techniques only. You can still be pressured with flurries of punches or push them back into the corner with pure techniques as well.

No reason to get injured during training. If you want, you can go hard during normal training session. But if you have a fight coming up, no reason to go hard at all. I'm looking at you AKA!

Everything must be balanced. No reason to go 100%. Of course going 0% doesn't help either. It's up to you and your partner to figure out how hard to go. I mean 50% is enough to put a sting on you and back you up already. Why go harder? If you want to go ham, then go ham on the bag. It actually takes more discipline to spar light and to know when to pull back etc. You will learn to control your moves and truly refine your technique. The guys who go hard are generally very sloppy. I have some of the best techniques in my gym and I can beat the berserking meatheads with just my technique alone.

I can never understand why anyone want to spar 100%. No reason to at all. 50% is enough if not less..
 
@Sano that McClellan video is horrible to watch.

No one is tougher that brain damage, even world champs.
 
@Sano

James Toney sparred every single day of training I believe, literally. There was also a time wher ehe ltierally only sparred in training and did nothing else according to freddie Roach. James Toney tbf though had ridiculous defence and didn't get hit much and got hit cleanly very rarely. But with him it was the sheer amount of hard sparring especially against other ATGs and also he needed to take some shots to learn how to dewfend like that.

McClellan tbf though isn't punchy the regular way but had a brain bleed so something more acute. I believe Emanuel Steward left McClellan before the benn fight and there were rumors that he was blinking weirdly in camp so he most liekly had some issue that went undetected and untreated until he suffered a severe injury. Those acute injuries are bad but they are rare in boxing.
Wilfred Benitez is arguably ina worse state than even McClellan. Apparently he just went into a short coma several years after retiring (no idea if he still sparred) out of nowhere seems totally gone. I read his father had him in brutal wars sparring since he was like 10 years old. His brother apparetnyl also has brain issues and his father died from a brain issue when he was older so his family wasn#t blessed genetically it seems. Also similar in that he just like James Toney was a great defensive fighter.




The more common thing and arguably worse thing since it affects many more seems to be CTE and similar things.


I don't support one philosophy over the other each fighter should know the risks and chose for himself what the best way of doing things is based on what he is willing to risk and based on what he needs even from a pure fighting perspective each approach isn't ideal for every style and person.

Mayweather btw spars HARD there are clips of him sparring online and even nowadays he spars hard I heard sometimes he evene spars the week of the fight and neither does he go soft nor does his partners do. Tbf he seems to carefully choose his sparring partners though.

But he was part of one of the most famous gym wars ever and has had a loong career now fighting at 40. Obviously though harder sparring means more damage all other things being equal and thus is unhealthier if all other things are equal



In the end hopefully science will improve enough so that at least CTE and similar issues can (ideally) be cured even if acute injuries like in McClellan's case or more recently Magdul Abdusalamov will always exist by the nature of the sport.
 
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@PivotPunch I saw a study where 80% of boxers with over 20 pro fights show some measurable form of brain damage, but brain damage is a wide spectrum. It could be slurred speech, motor control issues, or some chemical marker appearing in their cerebrospinal fluid. You're right that McClellan is an extreme case. In my mind he's basically a living fatality in that his quality of life is completely ruined but his life continues.
 
@PivotPunch I saw a study where 80% of boxers with over 20 pro fights show some measurable form of brain damage, but brain damage is a wide spectrum. It could be slurred speech, motor control issues, or some chemical marker appearing in their cerebrospinal fluid. You're right that McClellan is an extreme case. In my mind he's basically a living fatality in that his quality of life is completely ruined but his life continues.


Yes there are many studies.

One older one mentione 20% but it was from the 70s so they probably couldn't detect the issues as well also apparently some might not have been diagnosed as brain damage from boxing but as Alzheimers later on. The exact number seems tough to find out. One thing to keep in mind especially now with the % of former NFl players where in one study they found in 97% of former NFL palyers CTE is that the samples weren't unbiased.

Those brains from the NFL where donated by the players/their families so there was self delection meaning that most who donated had some issue or ususpected something was wrong with them. A fact that often doesn't get mentioned.


Also I'm not an exspert but I assume that you can also have some issues without having CTE froma concussion or some other acute damage often you just hear fans call brain damage CTE period but not every brain damage has to be CTE.


though yes it's a high number for sure.

With medicine advancing and especially gene therapies and the technology around it advancing I hope that at least non acute brain injuries can be cured or at least treated much better. Especiall with now the NFL aka the biggets sports organization in America being under pressure and the interest in it advancing. We can only hope
 
It's cool man, no two people can agree on absolutely everything :p

I will give you that the CTE for Thais isn't as broadly known. I'm not sure how its a double standard to look to protect yourself in a sport, even if you're objective is to hurt the other guy. When two guys fight, then go for it, but I don't think that means that you should risk your own health in training.

I can understand Paulie's POV - but I go back to my Thai argument, now I agree with you that there's no CTE but considering they start as children, and aren't completely ruined by the time their twenty, and often continue fighitng up to 30 and sometimes passed that, often being competitive with those much younger should indicate that their methods certainly allow for a longer career.

I'd be intersted to know if theres any similarities between their sparring and the sparring of boxers lik Sugar Ray Robinson

I think it is a double standard if you're worried about brain trauma but don't give a shit about the other guy you could possibly be giving it to. Unless you don't really give a shit about giving another human being brain trauma and contribute in whatever little way to potential long term health problems. But anyway I think I'm going off topic with this line of thought.

I'm not advocating how often hard sparring should be done - that's entirely up to the environment, sport you're in and your own physical health & ability. But hard sparring is a requirement if you are looking to compete - even if it's once or twice a week it has to be done I feel.

You can put in all the effort to ensure training is safe/smart, that you are drilling/sparring lightly, minimizing the trauma you receive and trying to maximize the longevity of your time competing but it can all be undone in a competition or a fight or even a couple. Again the objective is to hurt. You will be taking shots to the head from an opponent with the aim to beat you into submission and in the process their is the likelihood of you getting knocked out, being beaten very badly, potentially being in a very grueling/debilitating fight (think Lawler vs Macdonald) etc etc.

I think in regards to Thai's that you're looking at a different sport. In boxing you're going to get hit in the head a lot more frequently than you will in Muay Thai - I'd say significantly more. Also I'd add that most boxers have very similar longevity to Thai fighters - remember most boxers start as amateurs when they are very young and most professionals will usually have had over 150+ amateur fights before going professional. That doesn't include any interclubs/smokers that some boxers may do outside the realm of amateur competition before they turn pro.

That said though in either case - with Thai's & boxers - longevity does not indicate the likelihood of getting CTE or any other related medical problems. In fact I'd go as far as to say that if you have a longer career you're more likely to accumulate more trauma since you're engaging in the activity for longer.

I think Valtellini is forgetting that the sport he's advocating for more safer training preparation is a sport that is not safe. Safer preparation might give you more longevity but it also means you'll be engaging in a business of hurt/prize-fighting for longer and unfortunately most of the time you're still at the mercy of the unknown once you step into that ring/cage. Sometimes people find it hard to acknowledge that especially if you really live & breath it.

I'm not entirely sure regarding Sugar Ray maybe @Sinister will know. I'd be interested to know.
 
Yes there are many studies.

One older one mentione 20% but it was from the 70s so they probably couldn't detect the issues as well also apparently some might not have been diagnosed as brain damage from boxing but as Alzheimers later on. The exact number seems tough to find out. One thing to keep in mind especially now with the % of former NFl players where in one study they found in 97% of former NFL palyers CTE is that the samples weren't unbiased.

Those brains from the NFL where donated by the players/their families so there was self delection meaning that most who donated had some issue or ususpected something was wrong with them. A fact that often doesn't get mentioned.


Also I'm not an exspert but I assume that you can also have some issues without having CTE froma concussion or some other acute damage often you just hear fans call brain damage CTE period but not every brain damage has to be CTE.


though yes it's a high number for sure.

With medicine advancing and especially gene therapies and the technology around it advancing I hope that at least non acute brain injuries can be cured or at least treated much better. Especiall with now the NFL aka the biggets sports organization in America being under pressure and the interest in it advancing. We can only hope

There was a study I posted on a thread regarding brain trauma a while back.

It was one of the most comprehensive studies to date and the test group were amateur/professional boxers from Europe.

It indicated that over 80% had changes in their brain chemistry. I think they measured the chemical make up of the brain before & after fights.

They used a protein marker that is associated to CTE/dementia and it showed conclusively elevated levels of those proteins even after a fight and even after a period of rest. In many cases the changes were minor but permanent.


I found my old post & link - I'll add them here:

'Our study shows that after bouts, some of the boxers had elevated concentrations of four different proteins in the brain fluid, which all signal damage to the brain's nerve cells,' says Sanna Neselius, a researcher at Sahlgrenska Academy and the lead author of the study. 'Moreover, two of the proteins were still elevated after a period of rest.'

The data revealed that more than three quarters of the boxers exhibited protein changes that point to brain damage.

'The brain injury markers were elevated for 80% of the Olympic boxers directly after a bout as a result of minor brain damage,' Dr Neselius explains. 'That the brain fluid markers were elevated even after weeks of rest for some of the boxers can be interpreted as the damage had yet not healed or that some damage will remain.

The link to the journal is here:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0033606
 
Both are making valid points. Though, as an MMA guy, I lean much more towards Valtellini's side. The amount of guys who get injured and sit out for years at a time in MMA is staggering. Not just at the UFC level where cards are constantly being changed because of guys getting hurt, but also at the more local level where I've seen amateurs get knocked clean out by pros and never come back. One of my buddies lied about a concussion on his medical forms when he was about to be deployed because he'd been head kick KOd by a pro a few days earlier.

As with all things there needs to be a balance. However, I think the real key that no ones' talking about is defense. Sparring hard is a lot safer when you have a full defensive system that you know you can use to protect yourself. Even if you're gonna get in there and catch an ass-whooping, if your coach has taken the time to develop your defense sufficiently then you should be able to come out without taking too much damage. Hard sparring should be relatively infrequent (no more than once a week IMO), and be well-supervised, and no one should spar hard before their defense is at a high enough level. With those precautions, it can be done safely and you can develop the mentality and the ability to handle the intensity without getting beaten retarded.
Bingo. When I was training MMA before my gym closed, Defense was trained maybe 10% of the time in an active way. We did SOME pad work but that is not a replacement for quality partner drills. We never. EVER did partner drills and the like for my mma school.

It seems that defense is always getting the short end of the stick. Nowhere near enough time is spent partner/coach drilling the blocks and parries and other things. I have no idea why this is either. Every school I have been too is like this. Even some of the boxing places here, and they are run by golden gloves! You would think defense would get 50% of the instruction time but it just doesn't. It is part of the reason I stopped going to MMA. I got tired of sparring and getting my shit kicked in because we didn't do any defense work. My god most of the punching defense I learned had to be self learned online! I learned more from Myboxingcoach.com then I ever did in the mma gym. It should never be that way.

What is sick is that you get more striking defense from a typical Karate or TKD school then in the mma around me. Sad thing is, they all spar with retarded rules and no grappling.. In no sane world should TKD and Karate have more striking defensive instruction time then a MMA school.

I hope some of the instructors here can tell me why Defense gets gipped all the time.
 
Usually I agree with you on everything.

The Thai's argument is not really sound. Thai's fight nearly 1 or 2 times a month. They don't spar so hard because they fight so frequently. None of us here know the rate or issues with CTE in Thai fighters in Thailand because there's so little study/research or even check ups of that sort over there. I'm guessing that it must be high seeing as they start as children (in most cases when the brain is still developing).

Do you need to spar hard to fight. I think you do. If there is any contention it's probably how often.

That example with crossing the road is a good one. But we are talking about a sport where the objective is to hurt. Brain trauma will happen in that scenario whether you want it to or not. It comes with the territory.

Also it's a bit of a double standard to talk about brain trauma and trying to negate it in training. What about the other guy you have to fight? Fuck him I suppose?

You should focus on your safety. But you should be aware that some sports aren't safe and some are less safe than others. You should also be aware that your safety will most likely be compromised in those activities.

You can take all necessary safety measures or precautions in your training but it can all be undone in one or two fights or simply being KO'd or beaten to a pulp by a better fighter.

Training with safety in mind doesn't necessarily mean you will be safe in a fight. Valtellini is talking about preparation for fighting. I think Paulie is talking a lot of sense although he is being rude.

If you want to reduce any potential brain trauma in sparring or fighting - get defensively superb so you are never in a situation that you eat clean shots.
The problem is a lot of MMA gyms are not devoting the time to non sparring defense instruction. I know I didn't That is why I quit. I just got tossed to the fucking wolves. Most of the shit I learned came for the fucking internet. And when I read about training schedules at other gyms all I see is the same shit. NO time given to non sparring defense instruction.
 
There was a study I posted on a thread regarding brain trauma a while back.

It was one of the most comprehensive studies to date and the test group were amateur/professional boxers from Europe.

It indicated that over 80% had changes in their brain chemistry. I think they measured the chemical make up of the brain before & after fights.

They used a protein marker that is associated to CTE/dementia and it showed conclusively elevated levels of those proteins even after a fight and even after a period of rest. In many cases the changes were minor but permanent.


I found my old post & link - I'll add them here:



The link to the journal is here:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0033606



Yeah I remember that study. It was some chemical that suggest brain damage.

But it wasn't a study about long term brain damage. It just proves that damage occurs after fights which really is no surprise. I mean a 14 day rest period yes suggests a long term damage. but to really see how much of it is permanent you would have to test them after they have retired.

The study is obviously interesting because it is part of what has to be done to better understand brain injuries and possibly helps find treatments but it shows you nothing anyone couldn't have told you 100 years ago.

I'm more surprised that 20% had apparently not taken any masurable damage in amateur bouts. You would think just about anyone would receive damage no one escapes a fight without getting hit unless he scores a 10 second KO.

Also what was the "rest period"? Just no fights? The fact that some bxoers had icnreased biomarkers at the retest suggests that they may have sparred in between those 2 tests. Same even the boxers who showed decreased levels at the 2nd test even they might have sparred.

Every punch you get hit with is damage Im more surprised that apparently if you are lucky the damage you receive is so minor that it can't even be measured with what seems to be a very sensitive measuring method.

None of the boxers showed any cognitive defecits though which obviously often don't show until you have surpassed a certain amount of damage but still I#d be interested in tests of long retired amateur boxers. The issue with that though is again the selection bias you get as more people with symptoms will agree to ttesting which is even more of an issue in studying the brains of dead athletes as is the case with the NFL thing nowadays.


There also hasn't been done any study so far which looks up the rates of CTE in the general non boxing or contact sport population. Even soccer players have an increased risk of CTE I wonder in how many sports that exists and how prevelant it is in the general population.

The brain issues are now a hot topic so hopefully there will be made some breakthroughs especially with how the general population is ageing which means that Alzheimers and dementia becomes a big threat for every single person contact athlete or not so the research in that field will surely grow in the coming years.
 
The problem is a lot of MMA gyms are not devoting the time to non sparring defense instruction. I know I didn't That is why I quit. I just got tossed to the fucking wolves. Most of the shit I learned came for the fucking internet. And when I read about training schedules at other gyms all I see is the same shit. NO time given to non sparring defense instruction.


That's what I wondered I never did MMA so I can't know but I suspected that is the case and also a reason why boxers seem to be able to spar more without being THAT more braindead on average (obviously they would be healthier if they sparred less though).
 
Joe speaking the truth...Malignaggi clinging to the past.

Usually I agree with you on everything.
...

Also it's a bit of a double standard to talk about brain trauma and trying to negate it in training. What about the other guy you have to fight? Fuck him I suppose?

...

it is not a double standard to want to take precautions and reduce risk. everyone recognizes the risk of stepping into the ring, but it does not follow that the risk INSIDE the ring ought to exist OUTSIDE the ring too (and to an even greater extent, given the time spent training vs. time spent in actual fights).

how many rounds of sparring would the typical boxer/kickboxer endure for each round inside the ring in an scheduled fight? 10, 20, 50, more?

Well, then it stands to reason that improving safety and reducing risk in training would be FAR more beneficial and effective in promoting safety, lengthening careers, and improving post-career health, than changing anything in the ring, no?
 
You can do both light and hard sparring. You dont always have to do light, and you dont always have to go hard.
 
it is not a double standard to want to take precautions and reduce risk. everyone recognizes the risk of stepping into the ring, but it does not follow that the risk INSIDE the ring ought to exist OUTSIDE the ring too (and to an even greater extent, given the time spent training vs. time spent in actual fights).

how many rounds of sparring would the typical boxer/kickboxer endure for each round inside the ring in an scheduled fight? 10, 20, 50, more?

Well, then it stands to reason that improving safety and reducing risk in training would be FAR more beneficial and effective in promoting safety, lengthening careers, and improving post-career health, than changing anything in the ring, no?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's a double standard to care about reducing your own risk & looking out for your own well being while engaging in an activity that puts the other person's well being on the line. Sure it's two grown adults that know the risks but let's not pretend it isn't what it is.

Not necessarily - sure reducing risk will lengthen your career but it will also mean you engage in that activity longer. Brain trauma isn't exclusive to hard sparring/fights. If you're using safety/reducing risk to lengthen your career - I wouldn't say you're improving post career health but rather prioritizing your ability to make as much money as possible at the expense of your post career health.

If a fighter was reducing risk in training & actively being safe - and didn't prolong his career - for sure that would be a good way to reduce the risk of trauma (provided your genetics & other factors are good) - but like I said none of that really influences what happens on fight night. You can be safe/risk free in your training and get knocked unconscious on fight night - or worse go through a war that negates all that safe/risk free training you did.

The point Malignaggi is making that is flying over some posters head's - is that this is an activity of hurt. No matter how much you might want to be safe - you're engaging in an activity that isn't safe.

If safety is a concern - it's better not to engage in the sport because unfortunately it's not safe. You can put all your effort into reducing risk & being safe in training but if you are in a grueling fight or get dinked on the head enough - it all goes out the window.


No what would be far more beneficial than anything else would be learning & perfecting the art of not getting hit - defense - because that is the only thing in sparring/fighting that will reduce the amount of trauma you take to the head.

It's not really rocket science.
 
Another factor to consider is your skill level. You can't apply the same rules that a champion might make to your own training necessarily.

For example, since I'm not particularly skilled it means that quite often I end up sparring with someone better than me. So if we are going all out it would mean I'm guaranteed to get head trauma repeatedly every session which can't be good. So for me personally we aim to go "30%" for general sparring and "50%" if I'm training for a fight (in any case at some point things usually heat up and we get going a bit harder). It never gets to point of true KO, but gets hard enough to wobble each other. But the important rule is that if I get knocked solidly in the head twice I call it a day. I'm old and when I was a kid I never would have thought of limiting that (just be tough!) but we know too much and I'm also wiser now and value my remaining brain cells.

I need a limit like that because my sparring is by definition always mis-matched because I'm just not at a high level. But now imagine two elite guys -- they are going to be able to avoid things, pick their targets and control their punches. It is much "safer" for them to go at a higher level of intensity because they are just so good.

The other factor to consider is weight. These guys are small guys. Yes, they can still knock each other out but it is frankly much harder for them to do so. I'm heavyweight and just an accidental knock on the head when momentum is going towards the blow can be enough. You do not want to be going for actual KO in heavyweight sparring because it would definitely end in a KO every time which would be entirely unhealthy.

I would recommend sparring as hard as you feel is safe. When you're not going hard you can develop bad habits, actually lose speed in your hands, you don't get the benefit of really stressing your cardio and managing your breathing, and you simply don't get into the killer fight mentality that you need to recruit in an actual match.
 

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