Heated Twitter exchange between Valtellini & Malignaggi about sparring.

From my brief experience and preparation and from seeing and helping others in the gym prepare for their fights I always saw "fight camp" as something housed a wide range of sparring. There had to be some hard sparring, but if that's all you are doing you aren't able to implement certain techniques, movements, and reactions without moderate and lighter sparring.

They both have a point, but I lean toward Joe's perspective, with some hard sparring added in.

If all you do is hard spar you are really just reinforcing existing habits. You aren't really integrating as many new ones, buffing out bad ones, or polishing the good ones as much as yoy can with other degrees of sparring or situational sparring.
 
I find it amazing that nobody here (or there) is bringing up the fact that they both practice different combat sports.

Yes, Paulie is right. High level amateur and professional camps generally spar much harder than you think.
With near 100% intensity at times and definitely trying to hurt and drop you at all times.

But Valtellini is also right. Kickboxers generally don’t spar with full intensity though they may go hard at times.
Getting kicked and kneed in the head is pretty damaging not to mention that it’s easier to pick up injuries if you do go all out.

Paulie is usually pretty bright but I’m surprised he didn’t mention that.
He probably doesn’t know who Valtellini is and just got pissed.

It is annoying constantly reading comments, on YouTube or somewhere, where novices and weekend warriors are dropping gems on pros sparring about how they should just go easy and it’s about "learning" and "humbleness" etc etc.

EDIT: holy necro @AndyMaBobs
 
Last edited:
I find it amazing that nobody here (or there) is bringing up the fact that they both practice different combat sports.

Yes, Paulie is right. High level amateur and professional camps generally spar much harder than you think.
With near 100% intensity at times and definitely trying to hurt and drop you at all times.

But Valtellini is also right. Kickboxers generally don’t spar with full intensity though they may go hard at times.
Getting kicked and kneed in the head is pretty damaging not to mention that it’s easier to pick up injuries if you do go all out.

Paulie is usually pretty bright but I’m surprised he didn’t mention that.
He probably doesn’t know who Valtellini is and just got pissed.

It is annoying constantly reading comments on YouTube or somewhere where novices and weekend warriors are dropping gems on pros sparring about how they just go easy and "learn" etc etc.

EDIT: holy necro @AndyMaBobs

Hey I didn't necro it. Stuart did :p

On the combat sports being different, I do get where you're coming from, but I don't think they are different enough to warrant greatly different sparring habits, but if anything there is more reason you can get away with hard sparring in kickboxing because the legs and body will get targeted far more than the head, which isn't true in boxing.

But I also think, sure they do spar harder than you'd think, but I think this is a debate more on 'should you' rather than does it happen
 
Hey I didn't necro it. Stuart did :p

On the combat sports being different, I do get where you're coming from, but I don't think they are different enough to warrant greatly different sparring habits, but if anything there is more reason you can get away with hard sparring in kickboxing because the legs and body will get targeted far more than the head, which isn't true in boxing.

But I also think, sure they do spar harder than you'd think, but I think this is a debate more on 'should you' rather than does it happen

A legit point imo is that high level boxers only fight a few times a year so they need to get back into fight intensity.it plays a factor how often you fight. I get why someone like Tyson Fury with one or two fights a year has to bring up the heat in preparation for it to get used to it while
MT fighters with one fight / month have no need at all for that. So the difference in combat sports is more of a difference in fight frequency with the other extreme being Thai professionals
 
A legit point imo is that high level boxers only fight a few times a year so they need to get back into fight intensity.it plays a factor how often you fight. I get why someone like Tyson Fury with one or two fights a year has to bring up the heat in preparation for it to get used to it while
MT fighters with one fight / month have no need at all for that. So the difference in combat sports is more of a difference in fight frequency with the other extreme being Thai professionals

Fair point if you're at paulie's level, but low level pros and amateurs compete a lot more - still it's unusual to find someone that fights in boxing as much as Thai's do (nowadays at least, it used to be a lot more common)
 
I've done alot of hard sparing.
Paying for it now with hearing loss and facial surgeries and neck problems

I agree with Joseph.
Don't try and kill each other every day kids, its not worth it.
McGregor-vs-Malignaggi-1-Twitter-@TheNotoriousMMA.jpg
 
On the combat sports being different, I do get where you're coming from, but I don't think they are different enough to warrant greatly different sparring habits, but if anything there is more reason you can get away with hard sparring in kickboxing because the legs and body will get targeted far more than the head, which isn't true in boxing.


<{cruzshake}>

Getting kicked full power, even with shin pads, is far more likely to bust a rib / break a forearm / shake you up than punches with 16oz gloves.
The kicker is also far more likely to break his unguarded toes / injure ankles than you can punching with pro wrapped hands in 16oz gloves.

On the legs, full power kicks will pack up the receiver's thighs, limiting his training significantly for the next few days.
The kicker is likely to damage himself from a check too.

So no. It’s not very viable to spar hard, consistently, in kickboxing.

Incidentally, even thais, who believe in light sparring, when they train for boxing matches, go hard.
Hell, even when training boxing for Muay Thai, they go hard. They just still maintain that Muay Thai pace, is all.

Pure boxing is fought at a much more intense pace and for longer. Like a poster posted a few replies above, you need to be swimming in those deep waters or you’re gonna drown if, majority of the time, you’re just swimming near the surface.
Boxing. High level amateur / professional. You gotta spar hard and often. Maybe not Kronk levels but you do have to go.
Because at that level, you’re expected to already be set in your style and know your shit.
That easy work back n forth is more when you’re trying something different under a new coach / working on something for a bit / off training between fights.

A lot of ppl don’t get that but then they’re never gonna make it or even experienced it at that lvl, so it doesn’t really matter.

And yeah you can find some standout exceptions, at that lvl, like Sergio Martinez etc but those are like 1 / 100 and those 100 themselves are like 1 / 1000s of those who compete.

Kickboxing is different.
 
<{cruzshake}>

Getting kicked full power, even with shin pads, is far more likely to bust a rib / break a forearm / shake you up than punches with 16oz gloves.
The kicker is also far more likely to break his unguarded toes / injure ankles than you can punching with pro wrapped hands in 16oz gloves.

On the legs, full power kicks will pack up the receiver's thighs, limiting his training significantly for the next few days.
The kicker is likely to damage himself from a check too.

So no. It’s not very viable to spar hard, consistently, in kickboxing.

Incidentally, even thais, who believe in light sparring, when they train for boxing matches, go hard.
Hell, even when training boxing for Muay Thai, they go hard. They just still maintain that Muay Thai pace, is all.

Pure boxing is fought at a much more intense pace and for longer. Like a poster posted a few replies above, you need to be swimming in those deep waters or you’re gonna drown if, majority of the time, you’re just swimming near the surface.
Boxing. High level amateur / professional. You gotta spar hard and often. Maybe not Kronk levels but you do have to go.
Because at that level, you’re expected to already be set in your style and know your shit.
That easy work back n forth is more when you’re trying something different under a new coach / working on something for a bit / off training between fights.

A lot of ppl don’t get that but then they’re never gonna make it or even experienced it at that lvl, so it doesn’t really matter.

And yeah you can find some standout exceptions, at that lvl, like Sergio Martinez etc but those are like 1 / 100 and those 100 themselves are like 1 / 1000s of those who compete.

Kickboxing is different.

Ya I know this stuff, which is why I get my students to spar lighter - I didn't say it was viable to consistently spar hard in kickboxing, the difference is that busted ribs and broken forearms are far less common than brain trauma
 
Holy resurrection, i can't re-read all that but i have an idea of what my opinion was at that time. Still the same, easier to get injured sparring with legs/feet 100% than it is with headgear and gloves/punching only. When I was sparring hard boxing only, i'd get headaches here and there, but still be able to train the next day. If i did that with kicks/knees/elbows (padded), id maybe get lucky and be able to train again, but there was always a chance of fucking up my foot/ankle, getting my forearm/rib smashed to hell, not to mention full-concussion from a good headkick, or an accidental cut from a well-placed kick/knee/elbow, even with pads.

People who haven't sparred with full power kicks and knees have no idea how powerful the force/impact can be generated even from the smallest guys.

That being said, when Thai boxers put on the headgear and 16-18oz gloves for "boxing only" they go pretty hard with each other, and that's often with less dynamic footwork and minimal head movement because they do Muay Thai lol.

And Dutchies tend to just "take" lowkicks half the time so they like to go hard on the legs to "toughen" them up (whether it's scientific is debateable), go hard on the bodywork with hands and ease up on the head, but still pretty impactful, basically don't follow through if you see your opponent is rocked/wobbled, not "light" but then again there's no pattycake with dutchies.

For beginners/recreation guys who want a good visual on how sparring can be at different intensities (for kickboxing/muay thai) look up the sparring series by "Siam boxing" on youtube, hours and hours of sparring footage.
 
So basically I think boxers know what they're doing with their much more hard than medium/light sparring (no shit right?). Just a different sparring culture, also much more sustainable than trying to cripple each other with your shins every day. If it really was that detrimental we'd hear about more deaths and severe injuries in training (did you die? no? can you train again? yes? ok). Long term effects? CTE? I know nothing about. I'm mostly concerned with immediate damage from sparring and whether or not it is detrimental to your fight career in the moment. How much brain damage or arthritis you want in the long-run is on you as an individual in my opinion, everyone has an expiration date, whether you want it sooner or not is up to you. Adopt a more defensive or technical style in that case, if you're worried about that, maybe take a good look at the sport you're participating in? If you're that scared stay home, take up golf or go to church lol.
 
Last edited:
Ya I know this stuff, which is why I get my students to spar lighter - I didn't say it was viable to consistently spar hard in kickboxing, the difference is that busted ribs and broken forearms are far less common than brain trauma

You’re comparing apples to oranges.

I'll try again. In kickboxing, busted ribs and broken forearms are less common because A) the competitive pool is way smaller than boxing B) they don’t spar all out anyways because you’re more likely to pick up injuries cancelling your fight or at the least, affecting you negatively for it.
No dineros then.

Boxing has a far bigger pool of competitors. Not only will the gross amount of CTE be more but you fail to appreciate the fact that boxing is intrinsically a much more vicious sport than kickboxing of mma and, due to the prize money / pot at the end of the rainbow, attracts a more skilled / hungry / meaner athlete. Generally speaking.

To make it at the top levels, you have to do it this way. These ppl don’t care about the possibility that, maybe in the distant future, they might have issues.
The ones who care / overthink that shit don’t make it. Exceptions apply.
All things being more or less equal, the guy who’s been putting in that work in the office is going to outhustle / overwhelm the guy who’s been holding back.

Maybe this example might help. In kickboxing, I’m sure you’ve come across guys who just aren’t comfortable throwing low kicks because they think they’re gonna Anderson Silva their shins.
You may help them get over their reticence but you can see / feel it’s always there.
Now you n me both know that unless they get over that 100% (and most likely they won’t now that’s it in their head) they’ll never reach those top levels.
It’s a bit like that.

That being said, there are limits to how much hard sparring you should be doing in camp.
In the amateurs, and I’m talking national / state / international level, we get the kids to go about twice a week but keeping a strict eye on them.
Headgear but competition 12oz gloves. The head coach is a Cuban (ex national team - alternate), Olympic / WC / CW medal getting coach 25+ years in the game.
I’ve never seen any of ex students show any signs of brain trauma. He says it the same in Cuba. At that level, they can all take care of themselves / coaches are watching them like a hawk.
There are a few but it’s rare and those are the ones who always overdid it, unsupervised, not listening, village competitions etc.

Pro boxing, I know a lot of the coaches strictly schedule how many sessions a week, how many weeks etc etc.
They’ll schedule weaker partners for the first third of camp, to get the guy in tune, stronger ones towards the middle. Weed out any who’s getting to their guy, if any, towards the end and then finish strong.

CTE is generally those professional sparring partners who are brought in knowing they’re just warm ups for the main sparring partners. And those ones who just love to soar high all the time like a James Toney.
Incidentally, guys who are known for strong defences, Pernell Whitaker / Ali etc are more likely to get it. Why ? Because they have to work on their craft and it isn’t going to be by sparring guys who are playing patty cake. That shit would never work in competition then.
Boxing’s also a very individualistic sport where some guys just don’t wanna listen and just wanna keep working in there regardless of whether their skilled enough for this unbridled approach.

Anyways, this last para I was just riffing. Point is, joe blow shouldn’t be overly worried about CTE as long as he isn’t constantly getting his bell ring hard.
And let the pros / competitive ammys bang, bro.
 
I still to this day like the 80/20 ratio.

80 % of total sparring is (realistic) light flow sparring.

20 % of the sparring is hard fight sparring.
 
You’re comparing apples to oranges.

I'll try again. In kickboxing, busted ribs and broken forearms are less common because A) the competitive pool is way smaller than boxing B) they don’t spar all out anyways because you’re more likely to pick up injuries cancelling your fight or at the least, affecting you negatively for it.
No dineros then.

Boxing has a far bigger pool of competitors. Not only will the gross amount of CTE be more but you fail to appreciate the fact that boxing is intrinsically a much more vicious sport than kickboxing of mma and, due to the prize money / pot at the end of the rainbow, attracts a more skilled / hungry / meaner athlete. Generally speaking.

To make it at the top levels, you have to do it this way. These ppl don’t care about the possibility that, maybe in the distant future, they might have issues.
The ones who care / overthink that shit don’t make it. Exceptions apply.
All things being more or less equal, the guy who’s been putting in that work in the office is going to outhustle / overwhelm the guy who’s been holding back.

Maybe this example might help. In kickboxing, I’m sure you’ve come across guys who just aren’t comfortable throwing low kicks because they think they’re gonna Anderson Silva their shins.
You may help them get over their reticence but you can see / feel it’s always there.
Now you n me both know that unless they get over that 100% (and most likely they won’t now that’s it in their head) they’ll never reach those top levels.
It’s a bit like that.

That being said, there are limits to how much hard sparring you should be doing in camp.
In the amateurs, and I’m talking national / state / international level, we get the kids to go about twice a week but keeping a strict eye on them.
Headgear but competition 12oz gloves. The head coach is a Cuban (ex national team - alternate), Olympic / WC / CW medal getting coach 25+ years in the game.
I’ve never seen any of ex students show any signs of brain trauma. He says it the same in Cuba. At that level, they can all take care of themselves / coaches are watching them like a hawk.
There are a few but it’s rare and those are the ones who always overdid it, unsupervised, not listening, village competitions etc.

Pro boxing, I know a lot of the coaches strictly schedule how many sessions a week, how many weeks etc etc.
They’ll schedule weaker partners for the first third of camp, to get the guy in tune, stronger ones towards the middle. Weed out any who’s getting to their guy, if any, towards the end and then finish strong.

CTE is generally those professional sparring partners who are brought in knowing they’re just warm ups for the main sparring partners. And those ones who just love to soar high all the time like a James Toney.
Incidentally, guys who are known for strong defences, Pernell Whitaker / Ali etc are more likely to get it. Why ? Because they have to work on their craft and it isn’t going to be by sparring guys who are playing patty cake. That shit would never work in competition then.
Boxing’s also a very individualistic sport where some guys just don’t wanna listen and just wanna keep working in there regardless of whether their skilled enough for this unbridled approach.

Anyways, this last para I was just riffing. Point is, joe blow shouldn’t be overly worried about CTE as long as he isn’t constantly getting his bell ring hard.
And let the pros / competitive ammys bang, bro.

I'm not sure what you think you're arguing against?
 
What’s so hard ?

Top level boxers need to spar hard. Not Kronk style 24/7 but still.
Paulie Malignaggi's right.

No I mean, I'm not sure what you think you're arguing against. I'm not failing to understand what you're saying, it just seems like you're going on a tangent in response to things I didn't really say or dispute.

Anything to do with sparring injuries being more or less in common in X or Y sport, you'd need some empirical data comparing the two, which I don't think exists yet, but would like to see

I still to this day like the 80/20 ratio.

80 % of total sparring is (realistic) light flow sparring.

20 % of the sparring is hard fight sparring.

This is where I am pretty much, you need hard sparring if you're not competing regularly and by regularly I mean like, monthly. It shouldn't be the bulk of the sparring you do though.

I'm sure the kyokushin guys are all laughing at this thread right now, while they punch each other bare knuckle in the bladder repeatedly
 
Back
Top