HEMA and Budo

HEMA seems to bring out the comic book nerds. Are there even any real lineages in HEMA?

Not with most of it. Some forms of classical fencing and arts like Jogo Do Pau have lineages, but most of it is in the process of recreation.
 
@ doubelly & sweetdaddy:

That's why I can't take it seriously. It seems they are making up shit as they go along. Using a lot of theory and guesswork vs doing what was actually taught back then. If there are little lineages, then what's stopping Comicbookguy from watching Gladiator and opening up a studio?
 
@ doubelly & sweetdaddy:

That's why I can't take it seriously. It seems they are making up shit as they go along. Using a lot of theory and guesswork vs doing what was actually taught back then. If there are little lineages, then what's stopping Comicbookguy from watching Gladiator and opening up a studio?

Oh, I absolutely agree, which is why I am so harshly critical of the MEMAG type guys who (if you're coming from a trained, classical lineage) have no idea WTF they're doing. These guys are obviously making shit up as they go along and it shows. This I drew the analogy of a bunch of guys looking at a book of black belt kata trying to replicate it thinking they're doing karate. Put them on a mat with a kyokushin karate yellow belt and they'll be crying for mommy within seconds. I can't take these guys seriously.

As I said, the problem with HEMA is that you have these yahoos on one end and on the other end, you have guys like Puck Curtis and Matt Easton. Classically trained guys who obviously know what they're doing.

The latter type breaks down into two groups - guys who received direct instruction from those few remaining fencers who learned the art of the duel from unbroken lineages (Puck Curtis) that existed within and alongside European fencing clubs with pedigrees going back hundreds of years (contemporaneous with Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu or Yagyu Shinkage ryu Japanese forms) and those sport fencers with academic backgrounds (Matt Easton) who are reconstructing the art of military fencing based on the treatises.

Both are worlds apart from guys who are just simply making shit up.

To put it another way, let's say that the US occupation government of post-WWII Japan outlawed all sword practice except that of highly abstracted kendo. (Again, kendo is to actual Japanese sword fighting as Olympic fencing is to Western sword fighting.) You have some guys who might have learned some stuff on the side as club fencers and then you have some kendo guys who are looking at old kenjutsu books trying to figure out why samurai might have fought a certain way. Both can be taken seriously in their approaches because they each have some grounding in reality and classical training.

OTOH, there are these other guys. These guys are anime and manga/comic book nerds who are pretending to sword fight on Youtube. This is HEMA's problem.

To me, it's a shame that the former is associated with the latter.
 
@ doubelly & sweetdaddy:

That's why I can't take it seriously. It seems they are making up shit as they go along. Using a lot of theory and guesswork vs doing what was actually taught back then. If there are little lineages, then what's stopping Comicbookguy from watching Gladiator and opening up a studio?

Absolutely nothing. HEMA has no standards enforcing body, no traditional forms of training, nothing. Its stil int he wild west stage of its existence.

This is a curse...it results in alot of bullshido. It is also a blessing..we are free from the shackles of tradition and lineage that can hold back other martial arts. We can experiment freely with pedagogies and techniques. HEMA is also unique in that it is about scholarship...anyone who wants to accomplish anything has to read and study the manuscripts. My own scholar test (a rank often used in HEMA, based on a historical ranking system from a london martial arts guild) involved a pretty comprehensive oral examination on 3 different versions of Flos Duelletorum.

A large portion of the community has sub-backyard ninja level training. But the overall level of training and skill has improved immensely, even in the 5 years I have been involved.

But HEMA has something of a Show your Shit culture. Anyone making extraordinary claims had better be able to back them up, either in terms of scholarship, in demonstration or in sparring if they want to be taken at all seriously. And they WILL be challenged to make good on their claims.
 
Ok.

Holy necro batman!

I'm taking up longsword, there's a club near me that does competition and therefore sparring etc. I'm really excited to see how it goes. Just wondering if anyone itt has kept it up or does HEMA comp and the like and is available for questions?

@Doughbelly just wanted to commend you for your posts itt, you are a murmehurnerrrsmurmehurnerrr and a scholar. Was weird seeing my posts. Like a different person.
 
Ok.

Holy necro batman!

I'm taking up longsword, there's a club near me that does competition and therefore sparring etc. I'm really excited to see how it goes. Just wondering if anyone itt has kept it up or does HEMA comp and the like and is available for questions?

@Doughbelly just wanted to commend you for your posts itt, you are a murmehurnerrrsmurmehurnerrr and a scholar. Was weird seeing my posts. Like a different person.
Enjoy it! Tell us how it goes.
 
In a nutshell, my 0,02, eventhough I don't know much about the subject (I never miss a fencing/swords thread, haha):
- I think that the katana is inherently inferior on most accounts to many european swords. The katana is not a very good thruster, has a relatively short reach, has shit-tier hand protection and I believe is made from inferior steel.
- I think that a lot of HEMA we see on YT is absolutely pathetic. No footwork fundamentals and shit-tier athleticism and it shows. I also think that recreating medieval engravings is not a great way to develop a fighting style worth a shit. When I see the weird cat-stances that these dude try to recreate I wonder if they really thought this through.
- I think that modern sport fencing is a great foundation for any one-handed sword style. The footwork, timing, coordination, balance and speed/reflexes that one will develop in modern sport fencing is not only transferable but necessary. Obviously, adjustments need to be made if one was to transition to rapier, smallsword or military sabre. Double points in real life means that you die, too, and you cannot be as aggressive as in sport fencing. But while you can adapt to be more conservative as you transition to another style, you cannot just "adapt" your footwork and mobility.
- To bring the above into the big picture, however, in my experience sport fencing emphasises footwork and fundamentals a little too much, though. In fencing practice, the first half of the class is done without even touching a sword. I find that blade precision and manoeuvres is under-emphasised in sport fencing.
 
I just bought a German Longsword to get a feel for it and to do some backyard cutting. There is a fencing school near where I live that does HEMA that I've been tempted to check out. I would like to get a feel for it first with this sword though. Fortunately I have over 10 years of experience training Muay Thai, Dutch Kickboxing, and Boxing which I feel can come into play especially in regards to footwork, understanding range, timing, attack and defense variation.

Here's the sword I bought:
https://roninkatana.com/ronin-katana-two-handed-long-sword-7-leather-wrapped-grip/

Obviously this wouldn't be a sword to spar with, but I'd like to learn how to do Tameshigiri cutting with it.

@Doughbelly Awesome posts in this thread, very informative. The head instructor at this school near me spent a decade at that San Jose State fencing club you mentioned in this thread so that seems legit.
 
In a nutshell, my 0,02, eventhough I don't know much about the subject (I never miss a fencing/swords thread, haha):
- I think that the katana is inherently inferior on most accounts to many european swords. The katana is not a very good thruster, has a relatively short reach, has shit-tier hand protection and I believe is made from inferior steel.

It's interesting to see that the understanding of why Japanese bladesmithing developed along the lines that it did have more or less common among sword nerds. 20-25 years ago, I'd bring up inferior iron as the driver for extremely sophisticated metallurgy that was a technological dead-end, I would run into vehement resistance.

Interesting to see the thread resurrect. I don't disagree with anything I wrote save one statement that I'd like to correct.

There is one thing the katana does better than any other sword and this one thing can make enough difference to swing the fight. No other sword is even in the katana's league in this aspect of swordplay.

Any takers?

Remember to phrase your response in the form of a question.
 
It's interesting to see that the understanding of why Japanese bladesmithing developed along the lines that it did have more or less common among sword nerds. 20-25 years ago, I'd bring up inferior iron as the driver for extremely sophisticated metallurgy that was a technological dead-end, I would run into vehement resistance.

Interesting to see the thread resurrect. I don't disagree with anything I wrote save one statement that I'd like to correct.

There is one thing the katana does better than any other sword and this one thing can make enough difference to swing the fight. No other sword is even in the katana's league in this aspect of swordplay.

Any takers?

Remember to phrase your response in the form of a question.

Drawing? No sword system emphasises drawing like the Japanese / katana system?
 
I just bought a German Longsword to get a feel for it and to do some backyard cutting. There is a fencing school near where I live that does HEMA that I've been tempted to check out. I would like to get a feel for it first with this sword though. Fortunately I have over 10 years of experience training Muay Thai, Dutch Kickboxing, and Boxing which I feel can come into play especially in regards to footwork, understanding range, timing, attack and defense variation.

Here's the sword I bought:
https://roninkatana.com/ronin-katana-two-handed-long-sword-7-leather-wrapped-grip/

Obviously this wouldn't be a sword to spar with, but I'd like to learn how to do Tameshigiri cutting with it.

@Doughbelly Awesome posts in this thread, very informative. The head instructor at this school near me spent a decade at that San Jose State fencing club you mentioned in this thread so that seems legit.

I started fencing very late in my life (mid 30s). Yet my previous experience in striking arts (especially boxing and TKD) absolutely helped me with footwork as I immediately adopted a very bouncy style and understood things like weight transfer, balance and timing.

The psychological aspect is important too. If you are used to full contact sports you are automatically in the top 5% of fencers who are unfortunately a bunch of pussies.

Let us know how it goes.

God I miss fencing. Hopefully our fencing room which has been getting renovated for more than y year now will be ready soon.....
 
I prefer HEMA over Budo but HEMA is a very broad term , at least narrow it down to what century and weapon. For example there is a huge difference between 19th century sabre and 16th century longsword.


I find Joachim Meyer and Ringeck to be the most fascinating, both students of the Liechtenauer tradition just in different times in different contexts.
 
Comparing Chivalry and Bushido is also rather interesting especially if you study the context of each in thier respective times.
 
@KBE6EKCTAH_CCP @Snubnoze707

So I've taken up the study of fencing, longsword German style (Lichtenauer). The club near me is competent in it's teaching. The rookie stuff is dealt with very well by one of the second in commands, has his patter down. Usually one would spend a couple of months with him working on footwork, guards and various attacks from said guards, I was sent off to join the main class on the second session due to my familiarity with the martial arts and experience in iai do.

I am satisfied with the teachers knowledge and ability, whilst not bad he's not the best at actually teaching, he gives too many techniques at once. Showing on response to a situation and drilling it a few times before he shows 3 more. It is as if one would be drilling all week off that info but seeing as a partner is necessary for most that is unlikely. It probably helps keep people who aren't competition or application minded interested.

That said, for a quick study like myself it's almost ideal.

There is a decent emphasis on lateral movement. Iaido was all in a line, so the wider stance has taken a little getting used to. So far, everything I've been taught is mechanically sound, the only slight concern is that the application is fencing so one has to consider training to add the power for following through a blow and properly setting ones feet to deliver the necessary power.

Of course in iaido the uniform covered the legs to reduce tells, emphasis was on setting the feet and striking, like boxing. Sword fencing is to sword fighting as as point fighting taekwondo is to K1. That's not entirely a criticism however, we have seen the benefit that points fighting training has brought some fighters in the UFC for example. One must be mindful of the limitations.

I'm probably over emphasising the issue, it's not that they don't teach beyond just fencing, as the og text did not pertain to just fencing. It's just a slight tendancy to focus on the sword.

I haven't yet sparred anyone, just partnered set routines. That's fine with me because whilst there is kit to borrow, it's as grim as communal sparring kit is. This next pay check I'm getting a face guard and neck protector, then clamshell gloves, then a practice jerkin, then a practice sword. At home I use wood rather than a sword. I used to do so for iaido because the balance being off helps train the musculature involved and I think it's appropriate for now.

So yeah. Enjoying it. For the next month its buckler and sabre which should be fun. To be honest it's just really nice to be studying a martial art again,.it's one of the only things I'm good at and it's fun if nothing else than feeling good at something.
 
@KBE6EKCTAH_CCP @Snubnoze707

So I've taken up the study of fencing, longsword German style (Lichtenauer). The club near me is competent in it's teaching. The rookie stuff is dealt with very well by one of the second in commands, has his patter down. Usually one would spend a couple of months with him working on footwork, guards and various attacks from said guards, I was sent off to join the main class on the second session due to my familiarity with the martial arts and experience in iai do.

I am satisfied with the teachers knowledge and ability, whilst not bad he's not the best at actually teaching, he gives too many techniques at once. Showing on response to a situation and drilling it a few times before he shows 3 more. It is as if one would be drilling all week off that info but seeing as a partner is necessary for most that is unlikely. It probably helps keep people who aren't competition or application minded interested.

That said, for a quick study like myself it's almost ideal.

There is a decent emphasis on lateral movement. Iaido was all in a line, so the wider stance has taken a little getting used to. So far, everything I've been taught is mechanically sound, the only slight concern is that the application is fencing so one has to consider training to add the power for following through a blow and properly setting ones feet to deliver the necessary power.

Of course in iaido the uniform covered the legs to reduce tells, emphasis was on setting the feet and striking, like boxing. Sword fencing is to sword fighting as as point fighting taekwondo is to K1. That's not entirely a criticism however, we have seen the benefit that points fighting training has brought some fighters in the UFC for example. One must be mindful of the limitations.

I'm probably over emphasising the issue, it's not that they don't teach beyond just fencing, as the og text did not pertain to just fencing. It's just a slight tendancy to focus on the sword.

I haven't yet sparred anyone, just partnered set routines. That's fine with me because whilst there is kit to borrow, it's as grim as communal sparring kit is. This next pay check I'm getting a face guard and neck protector, then clamshell gloves, then a practice jerkin, then a practice sword. At home I use wood rather than a sword. I used to do so for iaido because the balance being off helps train the musculature involved and I think it's appropriate for now.

So yeah. Enjoying it. For the next month its buckler and sabre which should be fun. To be honest it's just really nice to be studying a martial art again,.it's one of the only things I'm good at and it's fun if nothing else than feeling good at something.
Good stuff, man. Happy for you. Maybe one thing on which I disagree though: swordsmanship is by definition point fighting because any sword thrust in your throat will kill you if done at the right angle, so that power is not as important as in other martial arts.
I am done with fencing, unfortunately. Our fencing room was out of commission for like more than a year. Then I moved away from the city so that commuting to the fencing club became too much of a hassle (especially with 2 small children at home), and then COVID restriction put a nail on the topic :-(
 
HEMA or any other euro stuff doesn't have japanesse philosophy.
Old time euro arts, like fencing had some very strict unwritten codex, yeah.
 
Good stuff, man. Happy for you. Maybe one thing on which I disagree though: swordsmanship is by definition point fighting because any sword thrust in your throat will kill you if done at the right angle, so that power is not as important as in other martial arts.
I am done with fencing, unfortunately. Our fencing room was out of commission for like more than a year. Then I moved away from the city so that commuting to the fencing club became too much of a hassle (especially with 2 small children at home), and then COVID restriction put a nail on the topic :-(

It's just a point of emphasis, but one has to consider that often one will be encountering the guard of the opponent and a strike will be stronger, harder to block and counter. We're well balanced sure, but pretty big swords.

On the bolded text, IF done at the right angle, and not AS important, fighting is messy and more power is beneficial.

I'm not saying I have to fight like a karate kata building a mountain with my stance. Just that I think it's worth paying heed to footwork fundamentals.

HEMA or any other euro stuff doesn't have japanesse philosophy.
Old time euro arts, like fencing had some very strict unwritten codex, yeah.

You're right, but I'm impressed with how much they've got. What they do have is a lot of texts to work back from as the art caught on in Italy and then Spain. There is also a great deal that was written in code in Lichtenauer, deciphering that has been the work of scholars.

Importantly they get to spar, to fight and that allows for a analysis of technique under the scientific evidence of application. Like of you consider the UFC as an example of skills being tested under the fire of competition, very early on some ideas were eliminated fast, then homogeneity emerged, finally the artistry re distance control emerged and slightly more martial art styles became more relevent. In HEMA we are at the second stage, where homogeneity is emerging. What works is obvious.

It's pretty handy having some of the Toyama Ryu iaido training though, I think it informs the discipline well.
 
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