How good is Mackenzie Dern compared to a male BJJ guy?

To be fair leg locks have a very good track record for submitting massive guys twice the size of the opponent in MMA, and in a time where stomp and soccer kicks were also allowed.

I believe the reason the Gracie's shunned them it's partly because the leglock game at their time was massively underveloped, and for this reason it was not suited for a real fight.
The modern leglock systems are much better for keeping control of the opponent and avoid getting hit or losing position.
Of course falling back for leglocks if you are on top would still be very dumb, but if you end on the bottom they could be extremely effective for neutralizing strikes, sweeping a much larger/stronger opponent and turning the table.

I'm pretty sure Royce would have loved to know some modern open guard sweep into leg lock stuff when Kimo was standing inside his open guard and beating him up.
Yeah, I particularly like how the Danaher guys find ways to enter into leglocks from open guard during various butterfly transitions, it's a really cool way of using the guard in an active and attacking way; and guard pulls that lead directly into leglocks. Fantastic and aggressive way to counter someone with superior wrestling.
 
Back in the old days the Gracie's (and many other BJJ fighters too) showed that you can be forced on the bottom against a much stronger but much less skilled and experienced opponent and still be the one in control of the fight, neutralize strikes and fuck them up.


Situations like this are really edge cases in truth, as you yourself point out, they can only take place in cases of extreme gaps in capability, and it begs the question as to whether one could direct that same level of capability to more effective ends.

If you were to make clones of a guy, train one to focus on working from the down position, and the other to focus on working from the up position, 7 times out of 10 the clone on top is going to render the clone on bottom unconscious, because of the inherent fundamental advantages and disadvantages of their respective positions.
 
at what belt level would she be competitive with men her size?

or

what size men would she be competitive with at her belt level?


Two different possible answers here.
 
Mackenzie Dern has developed the strength level of men through her training. She is proof that there is no limit on being a woman. She would ragdoll most sherdoggers.
 
Mackenzie Dern has developed the strength level of men through her training. She is proof that there is no limit on being a woman. She would ragdoll most sherdoggers.
I don't agree with this. MacKenzie Dern is supremely skilled, not super-strong. She doesn't ragdoll people, she uses her technical and strategic prowess to defeat them.
 
I don't agree with this. MacKenzie Dern is supremely skilled, not super-strong. She doesn't ragdoll people, she uses her technical and strategic prowess to defeat them.
I think she can ragdoll average Joe's though. Would you be scared of her?
 
I think she can ragdoll average Joe's though. Would you be scared of her?
Well, in case you didn't notice, I didn't attack Dern and in fact, I've stuck up for her in this thread. But she's never been about brute force. She's more about skill and strategy. She didn't beat Gabi Garcia by using strength; she won by playing a smart game. She's a great BJJ'ist, not a physical powerhouse.
 
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I think she can ragdoll average Joe's though.
I mean, I don't know about ragdoll. But beating Gabi frigging Garcia shows that she can deal with huge strength deficits and still find ways to work her game. Even no-gi, she was really impressive. And people minimizing her performances against Garcia by saying that Garcia is clumsy or whatever are being...extremely uncharitable.
 
Well, in case you didn't notice, I didn't attack Dern and in fact, I've stuck up for her in this thread. But she's never been about brute force. She's more about skill and strategy. She didn't beat Gabi Garcia by using strength; she won by playing a smart game. She's a great BJJ'ist, not a physical powerhouse.
She has great skill and she can be a physical powerhouse if she wants too. Mackenzie is an alpha gorilla, I would be terrified of her.
 
She has great skill and she can be a physical powerhouse if she wants too. Mackenzie is an alpha gorilla, I would be terrified of her.
When has she displayed this alpha gorilla strength that you speak of?
 
When has she displayed this alpha gorilla strength that you speak of?
You dont think she would overpower an average joe that trains at a random bjj or mma gym? She is showing technique against world class opponents. The average sherdog bro would get manhandled by her.
 
You dont think she would overpower an average joe that trains at a random bjj or mma gym? She is showing technique against world class opponents. The average sherdog bro would get manhandled by her.
The average guy who trains at an MMA or BJJ gym...? I don't know about that. There's definitely lots of guys out there she'd tap, I'm sure. But I don't even know why that's meaningful to an appraisal of her skill.

There was a girl that trained freestyle wrestling at the same gym I used to teach grappling, whom my brother and I worked out with a number of times. She won Fargo, I think, a record number of times (don't quote me on that but I had heard something to that effect). Whether or not the guys at the gym or on her high school team would beat her does nothing to diminish her accomplishments or skills. It's not really even relevant.

It reminds me of a guy I knew, who weighed close to 300 pounds, if not more, who sparred with a girl who was an Olympic hopeful and one of the better amateur boxers from our area. He'd been badmouthing her because, according to him, he got the better of her in sparring. He seemed to think that proved that she was overrated. I think most people just thought his boasting made him look idiotic.
 
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You dont think she would overpower an average joe that trains at a random bjj or mma gym? She is showing technique against world class opponents. The average sherdog bro would get manhandled by her.
She has great skill and she can be a physical powerhouse if she wants too. Mackenzie is an alpha gorilla, I would be terrified of her.

You joined 5 days ago, and already trolling.

She has skills but she would get manhandled by many hobbyist guys who train as well as a large percentage of strong untrained guys.

There is video of her in this thread in a bout with some random out of shape Judoka comedian trying not to hurt her when throwing in a grappling match.
As has been mentioned this doesn't diminish her skill and worldclass level against other women.
 


Here Kyra goes 4 subs to 3 against her husband, a 40 year old brow belt hobbyist who is in a very good shape (he is a famous actor in Brazil I believe) who must be 190-200 pounds.
Granted he doesn't go all out on his wife lol but this is outweighed by the fact that Kyra has been retired for almost a decade, so I think that's a fair assessment of how an elite female grappler would compare to a man.
So I agree with one of the posters, the best women in the world compare to in shape normally sized (between 150 and 200 pounds) purple or brown belt hobbyists.
If we are talking about MMA or Street situations, there is no woman on planet Earth who is a pure grappler (so this doesn't include girls like Nunes or Valentina) who could beat a normally sized guy (150 pounds and above) who has an amateur level in striking sports or in wrestling, and who has at least heard about bjj so that he avoids catastrophic mistakes like letting her come too close if he is a striker or not pulling out of bad spots on the ground if he is a wrestler.
 
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You joined 5 days ago, and already trolling.

She has skills but she would get manhandled by many hobbyist guys who train as well as a large percentage of strong untrained guys.

There is video of her in this thread in a bout with some random out of shape Judoka comedian trying not to hurt her when throwing in a grappling match.
As has been mentioned this doesn't diminish her skill and worldclass level against other women.
I'm a hobbyist that has trained for 5 years in bjj and im 210 pounds. Would she manhandle me or would I ragdoll her?
 
You joined 5 days ago, and already trolling.

She has skills but she would get manhandled by many hobbyist guys who train as well as a large percentage of strong untrained guys.
When you say that, how strong exactly those "strong untrained guys" you speak of should be to beat her?
Because I'm sure that being more specific on that would avoid a lot of confusion.
 
I'm a hobbyist that has trained for 5 years in bjj and im 210 pounds. Would she manhandle me or would I ragdoll her?
It would probably be a good competitive roll, I would give you the upper hand given such a size advantage.

If we are talking about MMA or Street situations, there is no woman on planet Earth who is a pure grappler (so this doesn't include girls like Nunes or Valentina) who could beat a normally sized guy (150 pounds and above) who has an amateur level in striking sports or in wrestling, and who has at least heard about bjj so that he avoids catastrophic mistakes like letting her come too close if he is a striker or not pulling out of bad spots on the ground if he is a wrestler.

That's kind of a complicated comparison because it's mixing a female grappler with no striking skills against a dude who has a specific skill set that can counter the grappler - particularly in this day and age where many BJJ competitors don't have the ability to get it to the ground against an unwilling opponent (either with an aggressive guard pull to sweep position or leg entanglement entry game; or with takedowns...sitting down doesn't work in a fight and jumping guard often gets you hurt). Even comparing a female grappler to a male grappler in a street fight is messy, because when there isn't training in something, size and strength dominates - and a female BJJ player who has no training in striking and minimal in wrestling might have some trouble against the male who also has no training but has the physical advantage.

I think it would be far cleaner to compare a top level female MMA fighter, because they will be well balanced in all aspects of the game and can handle a strength disadvantage better. I think a female UFC champion would generally be able to hang with typical amateur level male MMA fighters, maybe even the bottom ranking male pro fighters of similar size in the small organizations. (generally nobody in the UFC, Bellator, One FC etc though unless it's a "freakshow" type fighter like CM punk...I think most female MMA champions that size would probably beat him) And a female MMA champion will 1000% slaughter an untrained couch potato unless he has freak genetics
 
I mean, I don't know about ragdoll. But beating Gabi frigging Garcia shows that she can deal with huge strength deficits and still find ways to work her game. Even no-gi, she was really impressive. And people minimizing her performances against Garcia by saying that Garcia is clumsy or whatever are being...extremely uncharitable.
To be fair she won only because Gabi was deducted a point for complaining, and then she disperately tried to stall to maintain that advantage.
It's still very impressive that Gabi was not able to pass her guard despite trying as hard as she could, but there are regular sized women who defeated Gabi in a much more convincing manner (not by sub, but obtaining the points with succesful sweeps and takedowns on her, even in No-Gi) who never get mentioned.
 
It would probably be a good competitive roll, I would give you the upper hand given such a size advantage.



That's kind of a complicated comparison because it's mixing a female grappler with no striking skills against a dude who has a specific skill set that can counter the grappler - particularly in this day and age where many BJJ competitors don't have the ability to get it to the ground against an unwilling opponent (either with an aggressive guard pull to sweep position or leg entanglement entry game; or with takedowns...sitting down doesn't work in a fight and jumping guard often gets you hurt). Even comparing a female grappler to a male grappler in a street fight is messy, because when there isn't training in something, size and strength dominates - and a female BJJ player who has no training in striking and minimal in wrestling might have some trouble against the male who also has no training but has the physical advantage.

I think it would be far cleaner to compare a top level female MMA fighter, because they will be well balanced in all aspects of the game and can handle a strength disadvantage better. I think a female UFC champion would generally be able to hang with typical amateur level male MMA fighters, maybe even the bottom ranking male pro fighters of similar size in the small organizations. (generally nobody in the UFC, Bellator, One FC etc though unless it's a "freakshow" type fighter like CM punk...I think most female MMA champions that size would probably beat him) And a female MMA champion will 1000% slaughter an untrained couch potato unless he has freak genetics

Agree, but weren't we talking about girls who just have bjj?
This topic of "who would win in da streetz or mma" is complicated indeed because styles make fights.
For instance, if I could train a guy in only one area (striking arts or grappling arts) for 2 years, and after those 2 years he fights an elite female grappler who just knows striking (like Kyra, Bia Mesquita, or Dern, before she switched to mma and learned some striking) I wouldn't train him in grappling, but in striking, even if grappling usually beats striking.
As a matter of fact, unless he is a genetic freak (and he is not because we suppose we are talking about a normally sized human being), 2 years of training in grappling will never be enough to beat those girls at their own game. But if I train him in striking, he will be more than able to connect on them and ko them before they could come close to clinching him, let alone taking him down.
Striking will always be a glass ceiling for women when it comes to male vs female fights. The power difference is so huge, it doesn't even make sense. I read a study a while ago saying that women are 60% weaker than men in the upper body, and 40% in the lower body, that's how much harder guys hit than women, yet a trained woman could ko an other woman if she lands, imagine what would happen if a dude were to land on a woman...
So for a macho type of guy who wants to know there are no more than 5 women on earth who could beat him in an mma fight or in da streetz, I would recommend he learns striking lol
There is a reason why you only hear about guys getting beat up by girls in bjj, and never in striking arts, nor in wrestling, except if we are talking about HS wrestling, where many boys haven't hit puberty while girls already often are grown women (I remember when I was 12 or 13, me and buddies were wondering why we still were 5.2 and 90 pounds wet while many of the girls in our class already were fully grown 5.5 120 pound women, we wouldn't admit it but they could have kicked our ass easily lol, fortunately we all have put on 1 foot and 100 pounds since then lmfao)
 
But if I train him in striking, he will be more than able to connect on them and ko them before they could come close to clinching him, let alone taking him down.
Striking will always be a glass ceiling for women when it comes to male vs female fights. The power difference is so huge, it doesn't even make sense. I read a study a while ago saying that women are 60% weaker than men in the upper body, and 40% in the lower body, that's how much harder guys hit than women, yet a trained woman could ko an other woman if she lands, imagine what would happen if a dude were to land on a woman...
So for a macho type of guy who wants to know there are no more than 5 women on earth who could beat him in an mma fight or in da streetz, I would recommend he learns striking lol
Good analysis, I mostly agree but for the dude who wants to learn how to fight, I think it's hard to beat an MMA gym. A year of serious MMA training will make your average joe pretty dangerous, particularly if he goes out of his way to train other disciplines in isolation - do BJJ a couple days a week, kickboxing/boxing a few days as well, a day or two of wrestling etc

I 100% agree that striking is much more "physical attribute dependent" (not only strength) than ground grappling, but I think wrestling is even moreso than those two. There are examples of top women outstriking male fighters (Germaine DeRandemie etc) but in wrestling...not so much - in fact I've read many examples of female olympians struggling with high school wrestlers. I think that's why wrestlers do so well in MMA, beyond just the advantages of knowing the technique - if you are a successful wrestler you are 100% guaranteed to have a whole bunch of great physical attributes because you can't possibly succeed without them.
 
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