Ian Entwistle still not finishing heel hooks....

DeepFry

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Preface: This is kind of a continuation of the "Definitive Guide to finishing a Heel Hook" thread

**
Back in UFC days he failed time and again with heel hook attempts - one example being,



Seems to have made a comeback (which may be short lived as he injured his knee here),



But again, gets in prime position and..... nothing doing.

I'm not ragging on the dude I'm just sayin', what's he doing wrong?

Seems like he's extending into the knee in that last contest (which he wasn't doing in UFC fights as he was exclusively trying to torque), but alas, still no finish.
 
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03b932.gif


Missing some of this perhaps?
 
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He was well known for dropping for a leg for ages.. Then Dan bludgeoned him with elbows from 50/50....
 
He was well known for dropping for a leg for ages.. Then Dan bludgeoned him with elbows from 50/50....

That was just another example of him not finishing the technique correctly despite being outstanding at getting in a good finishing position.

Sound technique that deep on a finishing position would have tapped Dan before he had time to scream in pain.
 
That was just another example of him not finishing the technique correctly despite being outstanding at getting in a good finishing position.

Sound technique that deep on a finishing position would have tapped Dan before he had time to scream in pain.
Surprised you made this thread today without mentioning Yoshiki Nakahara.

Nakahara went for a leglock last night, and ended up getting soccer kicked for his efforts. He won via DQ, but it really shows the frailties of the position.

Timestamped:

 
That was just another example of him not finishing the technique correctly despite being outstanding at getting in a good finishing position.

Sound technique that deep on a finishing position would have tapped Dan before he had time to scream in pain.

I think at the time, Entwhistle's understanding on the position was better than most. It was before DDS etc really took off.

Dan also put a lot of time into the defences from the position
 
Perhaps, but that deep in on that sub, he was trying to finish, not getting it, and then getting rained on with 'bows.

His next fight, same deal - one attempt after the next.

By coincidence he got into a belly down position and the sub finished itself.

Point being, his finishing technique clearly isn't there.

Cause why?

It's not 100% clear how to finish that sub completely.
 
Z2QoYGv
giphy.gif


Compare with,

03b932.gif


A dude here used the expression before, "crunching in".

In the second gif we can see, when you try and pull the heel to the chin, the lateral portion of the attackers body contracts, so it is in effect like there's a "crunching in", to the side.

See with Cummings here,

cummings-heel-hook.gif


We see the same, the lateral portion of his body is contracting.



+ 1.

Where as once again here,

giphy.gif


I don't see any lateral crunching....?

From that position, that deep on the position, if applied correctly, would finish 10 out of 10 times.
 
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Most recently,

giphy.gif


No lateral crunching = no finish, despite perfect position.

It's like an extension as with a knee bar but, cause the heel hook the leg is to the side, the extension happens to go laterally.

That's what Entwistle seems to consistently not do; it's like he's extending backwards, not getting that side crunch - just poor finishing technique.

One tweak and I'd stake dollards he'd be 5 for 5 in his last 5.
 
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The heel hook has apparently worked on three others guys he has faced.
 
The heel hook has apparently worked on three others guys he has faced.

Anthony Birchak, he got lucky - wasn't finishing it but in a belly down position it finished itself.

Against Liam James I know for a fact James tapped early out of fear of damaging his knee, not actually pain etc.



This one I can't explain but it's being torqued not extended or "crunched in".

A UFC level fighter would have tapped to this?

Doubtful.
 
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Fuck it I have tried everything to Finnish a heal hook I may as well try a sharedog forum.

The Finnish is something I have invested a lot of time into but I can by no means break the leg as fast as palhares and all thoughts are welcome.

I don’t believe in excuses if I would of finished my heel hooks I would be undefeated and it is my cross to bear and there is no excuse my Finnish needs to improve and it will but one thing I will say in my defence on heel hook finnishing is like no other because unless you are a dick with your training partners (there is no way to put a live MMA Finnish on a heel hook in training)

I appreciate you guys commenting on me good and bad and I will reply to everyone who has took the time to comment on this thread.

I have no interest in winning by anything else apart from heel hooks the win just doesn’t feel right and is not of interest to me if it is not by heel hook. We all fight for our own reasons and my reason is love heel hooks.

there are so many times I have thought I have the answers to the finish and realised I don’t but how do you find out until it is time to rip your opponents knee off in competition because if you pull on peoples legs 100 percent in the gym you simply won’t have training partners. Either because you have hurt them or they think your a dick for trying to rip there leg off and ruin there career

Honestly open to suggestions because if my dumb ass can’t pick the Finnish up after asking and working with imanari and sharing the mats with Lachlan Giles and getting him to put his finish on me. Seriously open to suggestions
 
Reminds of the phuket dreaming video that was pumpin him up to be the next big thing. Seems like it was a bad omen to be featured on that series even though it was so bad ass.
 
Fuck it I have tried everything to Finnish a heal hook I may as well try a sharedog forum.

The Finnish is something I have invested a lot of time into but I can by no means break the leg as fast as palhares and all thoughts are welcome.

I don’t believe in excuses if I would of finished my heel hooks I would be undefeated and it is my cross to bear and there is no excuse my Finnish needs to improve and it will but one thing I will say in my defence on heel hook finnishing is like no other because unless you are a dick with your training partners (there is no way to put a live MMA Finnish on a heel hook in training)

I appreciate you guys commenting on me good and bad and I will reply to everyone who has took the time to comment on this thread.

I have no interest in winning by anything else apart from heel hooks the win just doesn’t feel right and is not of interest to me if it is not by heel hook. We all fight for our own reasons and my reason is love heel hooks.

there are so many times I have thought I have the answers to the finish and realised I don’t but how do you find out until it is time to rip your opponents knee off in competition because if you pull on peoples legs 100 percent in the gym you simply won’t have training partners. Either because you have hurt them or they think your a dick for trying to rip there leg off and ruin there career

Honestly open to suggestions because if my dumb ass can’t pick the Finnish up after asking and working with imanari and sharing the mats with Lachlan Giles and getting him to put his finish on me. Seriously open to suggestions


I can sympathize with the frustration. We all use forums like these because we love talking about grappling (well, most anyways), and if any additional utility is found in the conversation, that's all to the good.

The main thing when it comes to finishing leg attacks in general, and heel hooks in particular, is that before anything else, you need to stick them in place. The more they can roll around or stand up or scoot away, the better chances they have of defending or escaping or reversing.

Eg:








Someone who is good at legs (or has put time into the situations in preparation for a fight) can do these things to take advantage of someone trying to play the same game (or go there on purpose to advance position).

That is one reason why the 'pull the heel across your chest' notion is wrong, because it's basically helping the opponent roll. When it comes to making submissions happen, you need to be latched on to them, need to knock them and keep them down on their hip, and to stop them from rolling or scooting. An opponent unable to stop you in one or more of these factors when attacking your own legs makes it possible for you to counter them.

This is also something that lends itself easily to situational drills, without even needing to go for full finishes; training partners can take turns holding leg entanglements on each other - like saddle, 50/50, or slx - timing how long they can maintain entanglements (i'd say transitions between positive entanglements without losing contact also count) vs how long it takes for their counterpart to escape or reverse it. To make more of a game out of it you could have it like half minute or one minute 'rounds', where the entangler maintaining position for full time gets a 'point', whereas the entanglee escaping or reversing before time gets a 'point', and tally up scores after X rounds. Likewise with more freeform rolling, catch-and-release is a fine principle for developing one's capacity to create and prevent the possibility of these submissions on a fundamental level.

If you can keep the opponent under control in your entanglements - keeping him from standing, keeping him from squirming about - then you have very little to fear from him in terms of strikes as well. (This can be another situation drill: within an allotted time, starting from an entanglement on a standing counterpart, see who can get the most time with their counterparts knocked down on their hips.)

When it comes to breaking mechanics specifically, there are a number of pressure vectors that can be in play, but in general the biggest one that a heel hook grip provides is the ability to use your large body muscles to impart a combination of rotational and linear force simultaneously through the leg. In order to do this in a way that produces finishes however, it needs to be by means that twist the leg, without turning his whole body at the same time. Id est, you need to be able to move the leg in isolation from his body. This is another reason why the 'pull the heel across your chest' motion does not produce finishes; because while you may be imparting force on his leg, you are imparting force on the rest of his body too at the same time, and there is no 'backstop' for the motion; so the net torque that is actually imparted on the leg is basically zero if he rolls with it.

As a general rule, you will not move your arms themselves much when applying a break with a heel hook grip, but keep them tight to your armpit holding the foot, while using your whole body to apply the breaking motion. Inside heel hooks are one of the easiest ways to impart this rotation on a isolated leg without turning you or the opponent at the same time, as once you have the heel hooked and his foot behind your armpit, all you need to do is extend, and his leg will naturally straiten out into a position that is turned 180 degrees or beyond from where it should be.

Im a big believer personally in using the 50/50 and saddle as attacking positions (especially with a crossed leg Craig Jones/Lachlan Giles style). Outside heel hooks are somewhat more involved to get finishes with, not just in terms of isolated breaking mechanics, but also with respect to broader positional implications of the sort of entanglements where you might attack OHH's to begin with (such matters are interrelated of course).

50/0, or 'DOA', can allow for strong breaks, using similar mechanics as an inside heel hook, but the position itself is very weak structurally, a man attacking with it essentially putting himself into a hip lock or leg drag, where with familiarity in the situation, you have strong opportunities to counter attack with passes, back takes, head-and-arm chokes, or simply rain down strikes.

One legged X, or 'anaconda gwarch', is a much stronger position structurally, which a bottom man can use to stand up, or reverse the opponent, or transition to other leg entanglements. Attacking the leg directly from this is a bit more difficult however. The most reliable means is to apply some form of leg knot or slide lock first; you want double leg control, to prevent the opponent from standing up, or rolling or scooting easily; and by freeing up the arms, you can apply a submission with full force on an isolated leg (this can be another situational drill: starting from a more 'neutral' entanglement, like SLX or 50/50, and working to advance to a more dominant chancery, such as a saddle or leg knot). Every other means of finishing with outside heel hook grips from SLX basically depend on achieving the same things a leg knot gives you first; an opponent stuck on the ground and prevented from rolling. One or both legs hooked in the inseam behind his far leg, stopping his roll, and giving you a solid base to move your body on his leg, almost like you're driving a screw, using your lat on the long end of his foot to apply rotational torque through the leg without rolling, like a toehold.

Studying film of yourself in practice and high level competitors in action is very valuable, to see what exactly is happening when you or they succeed by using a given move (like heel hooks); what is also important, is to see what is happening when you or they don't succeed at using a move, to see what is different between the two; and thereby figure out the essentials.

May Just Bleed God bless you with many a dismembered knee to offer in sacrifice.
 
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Fuck it I have tried everything to Finnish a heal hook I may as well try a sharedog forum.

The Finnish is something I have invested a lot of time into but I can by no means break the leg as fast as palhares and all thoughts are welcome.

I don’t believe in excuses if I would of finished my heel hooks I would be undefeated and it is my cross to bear and there is no excuse my Finnish needs to improve and it will but one thing I will say in my defence on heel hook finnishing is like no other because unless you are a dick with your training partners (there is no way to put a live MMA Finnish on a heel hook in training)

I appreciate you guys commenting on me good and bad and I will reply to everyone who has took the time to comment on this thread.

I have no interest in winning by anything else apart from heel hooks the win just doesn’t feel right and is not of interest to me if it is not by heel hook. We all fight for our own reasons and my reason is love heel hooks.

there are so many times I have thought I have the answers to the finish and realised I don’t but how do you find out until it is time to rip your opponents knee off in competition because if you pull on peoples legs 100 percent in the gym you simply won’t have training partners. Either because you have hurt them or they think your a dick for trying to rip there leg off and ruin there career

Honestly open to suggestions because if my dumb ass can’t pick the Finnish up after asking and working with imanari and sharing the mats with Lachlan Giles and getting him to put his finish on me. Seriously open to suggestions

In gif outlay,

Flex latisimus dorsi muscles (side back muscle) = side bend.

No side bend = no finish:

e4027e.gif


Side bend = finish:

03b932.gif


Side bend = finish:

cummings-heel-hook.gif


Side bend = finish:

ec0de6.gif
 
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I can sympathize with the frustration. We all use forums like these because we love talking about grappling (well, most anyways), so if any additional utility is found in the conversation, that's all to the good.

The main thing when it comes to finishing leg attacks in general, and heel hooks in particular, is that before anything else, you need to stick them in place. The more they can roll around or stand up or scoot away, the better chances they have of defending or escaping or reversing.

Eg:








Someone who is good at legs (or has put time into the situations in preparation for a fight) can do these things to take advantage of someone trying to play the same game (or go there on purpose to advance position).

That is one reason why the 'pull the heel across your chest' notion is wrong, because it's basically helping the opponent roll. When it comes to making submissions happen, you need to be latched on to them, need to knock them and keep them down on their hip, and to stop them from rolling or scooting. An opponent unable to stop you in one or more of these factors when attacking your own legs makes it possible for you to counter them.

This is also something that lends itself easily to situational drills, without even needing to go for full finishes; training partners can take turns holding leg entanglements on each other - like saddle, 50/50, or slx - timing how long they can maintain entanglements (i'd say transitions between positive entanglements without losing contact also count) vs how long it takes for their counterpart to escape or reverse it. To make more of a game out of it you could have it like half minute or one minute 'rounds', where the entangler maintaining position for full time gets a 'point', whereas the entanglee escaping or reversing before time gets a 'point', and tally up scores after X rounds. Likewise with more freeform rolling, catch-and-release is a fine principle for developing one's capacity to create and prevent the possibility of these submissions on a fundamental level.

If you can keep the opponent under control in your entanglements - keeping him from standing, keeping him from squirming about - then you have very little to fear from him in terms of strikes as well. (This can be another situation drill: within an allotted time, starting from an entanglement on a standing counterpart, see who can get the most time with their counterparts knocked down on their hips.)

When it comes to breaking mechanics specifically, there are a number of pressure vectors that can be in play, but in general the biggest one that a heel hook grip provides is the ability to use your large body muscles to impart rotational torque through the whole leg. In order to do this in a way that produces finishes however, it needs to be by means that twist the leg, without turning his whole body at the same time. Id est, you need to be able to move the leg in isolation from his body. This is another reason why the 'pull the heel across your chest' motion does not produce finishes; because while you may be imparting force on his leg, you are imparting force on the rest of his body too at the same time, and there is no 'backstop' for the motion; so the net torque that is actually imparted on the leg is basically zero if he rolls with it.

As a general rule, you will not move your arms themselves much when applying a break with a heel hook grip, but keep them tight to your armpit holding the foot, while using your whole body to apply the breaking motion. Inside heel hooks are one of the easiest ways to impart this rotation on a isolated leg without turning you or the opponent at the same time, as once you have the heel hooked and his foot behind your armpit, all you need to do is extend, and his leg will naturally straiten out into a position that is turned 180 degrees or beyond from where it should be.

Im a big believer personally in using the 50/50 and saddle as attacking positions (especially with a crossed leg Craig Jones/Lachlan Giles style). Outside heel hooks are somewhat more involved to get finishes with, not just in terms of isolated breaking mechanics, but also with respect to broader positional implications of the sort of entanglements where you might attack OHH's to begin with (such matters are interrelated of course).

50/0, or 'DOA', can allow for strong breaks, using similar mechanics as an inside heel hook, but the position itself is very weak structurally, a man attacking with it essentially putting himself into a hip lock or leg drag, where with familiarity in the situation, you have strong opportunities to attack with passes, back takes, head-and-arm chokes, or simply rain down strikes.

One legged X, or 'anaconda gwarch', is a much stronger position structurally, which a bottom man can use to stand up, or reverse the opponent, or transition to other leg entanglements. Attacking the leg directly from this is a bit more difficult however. The most reliable means is to apply a leg knot or slide lock first; you want double leg control, to prevent the opponent from standing up, or rolling or scooting easily; and by freeing up the arms, you can apply a submission with full force on an isolated leg (this can be another situational drill: starting from a more 'neutral' entanglement, like SLX or 50/50, and working to advance to a more dominant chancery, such as a saddle or leg knot). Every other means of finishing with outside heel hook grips from SLX basically depend on achieving the same things a leg knot gives you first; an opponent stuck on the ground and prevented from rolling. One or both legs hooked in the inseam behind his far leg, stopping his roll, and giving you a solid base to move your body on his leg, almost like you're driving a screw, using your lat on the long end of his foot to apply rotational torque through the leg without rolling, like a toehold.

Studying film of yourself in practice and high level competitors in action is very valuable, to see what exactly is happening when they succeed by using a given move (like heel hooks); what is also important, is to see what is happening when you or they don't succeed at using that move, to see what is different between the two; and thereby figure out the essentials.

May Just Bleed God bless you with many a dismembered knee to offer in sacrifice bro.


ie6WKGJ.png
 
You're welcome.

No one is reading that manifesto.

Bullet point anything noteworthy.

And the topic is the specific detail on how to FINISH heel hooks, not what positions you like to use them from or how you get into said positions.
 
bd1a4a.gif


Here it's the conventional (wrong) heel hook finish premise (torquing).

Bearing in mind in terms of power application to effect ratio, the heel hook is thee most efficient joint lock.

So we see a lot of effort apparent there with no finish.

......

Where as, if we compare that finish attempt to the masters of heel hooks above, Cummings, Gokar etc., their direction of power application is actually the opposite way;

It would be in this direction,

93a80f.gif


i.e. the movement would be performed not with the hands, but rather with the body, in a lateral bending.

As oppose to torquing in the direction of the red arrow which got no finish, the sub is correctly finished by contracting the body to the side of the blue arrow direction.

.....

That's what I'm saying, plenty of schools still don't know how to teach this sub correctly and plenty of dudes still think it's finished by torquing as per the first gif.
 
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