Is an outfighter like Lewis forced to brawl a taller outfighter like Vitali

[Fluffernutter]

Well, he beat Henry akinwande

 

[Absolut]

True but compared to all the other HW's Tyson fought, Evander was the closest in size to Tyson.

the one round Norris shitshow. Norris was closer to his size.

 

[mozfonky]

the one round Norris shitshow. Norris was closer to his size.

Mathis jr too and interestingly he had trouble because he punched too high.

 

[Swepingright]

Clay-Liston. Although the speed and atlethicism difference was so high that Listons superior range didn't amount to anything.

 

[aries]

the one round Norris shitshow. Norris was closer to his size.

lol hadn't seen that fight. I just watched it now. Messed up ending!

 

[tekkennlee]

I always wondered how an outfighter adjusts to not being the taller guy For once, against another out fighter.

We got to see what happened in Lewis-Klitchko.

Isn't this the worst possible scenario for a fighter since they have to get out of their safety zone and brawl? They can't bob and weave since that's not their style, but they can't just stand there and eat jabs either...

Mike Tyson was almost always shorter so he had the same game plan every time.

Not all fighters have the ability to adapt to different styles. You have the Leonard-Hearns fight where the taller man was outboxing the guy everyone thought was a boxer, so, Ray became the stalker. Each man had effectively traded styles. Had hearns not been able to box, the fight probably would have ended sooner because he was badly hurt and gamely started to stick and move, he may have been able to take out Ray, who knows, but it was smart for him to dance. Ray was a killer in those years, a stone cold killer but if he hadn't been able to be aggressive and stalk his man like that, the decision would have went to tommy.

In short, adaptability is the mark of a great fighter.

Ray had to get on the inside against Hearns because he couldn't get past that jab, Ray had to slip the jab get then get on the inside then attack the body and head, it took him almost the whole fight to figure this out, Angelo didn't tell him what to do, Angelo just said your blowing it kid, we have to separate the Men from the boys, Ray just changed his style and became aggressive fighting Hearns, but he wasn't getting advice on how to counter Tommy, also Tommy had legs problems he would lose his legs then get hurt.

Maybe Angelo was saying fight him like a Man, fight him, but he should've told him after round 3 get on the inside by slipping that jab b ecause your at his range he's hitting you with his deadliest weapon his jab, you need to slip it and get inside because Tommy wasn't a good inside fighter, he had long arms.

Ray fought people, he just thought he could outbox Hearns, he boxed Hearns and was losing, then he changed & fought him and won, he fought Duran and lost when he should've switched to boxing Duran after 4 rounds, then in the rematch he boxed him and won.

Ray was a very smart fighter, but sometimes he fought wrong and wouldn't adapt.

 

[tekkennlee]

I always wondered how an outfighter adjusts to not being the taller guy For once, against another out fighter.

We got to see what happened in Lewis-Klitchko.

Isn't this the worst possible scenario for a fighter since they have to get out of their safety zone and brawl? They can't bob and weave since that's not their style, but they can't just stand there and eat jabs either...

Mike Tyson was almost always shorter so he had the same game plan every time.

Lennox was past prime slower more flat footed and used power to fight Vitali, prime Lewis would've been quicker then Vatali, Lewis his footwork was quicker in his prime, then Vatali, he would've did more damage but Lewis fought big fighters like himself the same way, but he could use his legs, he was past prime but still beat the hell out of Vitali, prime Lewis does worse.

 

[tekkennlee]

I always wondered how an outfighter adjusts to not being the taller guy For once, against another out fighter.

We got to see what happened in Lewis-Klitchko.

Isn't this the worst possible scenario for a fighter since they have to get out of their safety zone and brawl? They can't bob and weave since that's not their style, but they can't just stand there and eat jabs either...

Mike Tyson was almost always shorter so he had the same game plan every time.

Watch prime Lewis vs Ruddock he's quicker on his feet better footwork because he's young 38 Lewis that fought Vitali no way could move like prime Lennox not for 12 rounds only in spurts but wasn't as quick he's heavier also, so being more flat footed is due to age, his legs weren't the same.

 

[mozfonky]

Ray had to get on the inside against Hearns because he couldn't get past that jab, Ray had to slip the jab get then get on the inside then attack the body and head, it took him almost the whole fight to figure this out, Angelo didn't tell him what to do, Angelo just said your blowing it kid, we have to separate the Men from the boys, Ray just changed his style and became aggressive fighting Hearns, but he wasn't getting advice on how to counter Tommy, also Tommy had legs problems he would lose his legs then get hurt.

Maybe Angelo was saying fight him like a Man, fight him, but he should've told him after round 3 get on the inside by slipping that jab b ecause your at his range he's hitting you with his deadliest weapon his jab, you need to slip it and get inside because Tommy wasn't a good inside fighter, he had long arms.

Ray fought people, he just thought he could outbox Hearns, he boxed Hearns and was losing, then he changed & fought him and won, he fought Duran and lost when he should've switched to boxing Duran after 4 rounds, then in the rematch he boxed him and won.

Ray was a very smart fighter, but sometimes he fought wrong and wouldn't adapt.

Ray was letting Tommy dictate the later rounds and even though Ray was actually doing the most damage, Tommy had a shot of winning on points. Whether the fight should have been that close, alot of people disagreed at the time but it was and Angelo's words were enough to get him to attack a fighter who was hurt and tired. Ray had the eye problem, could only see out one eye so both men had issues. That fight probably ended the prime of ray as most people think that's where the detached retina happened.

As far as the jab and Hearn's length, yes, that was a problem for many guys who Tommy fought. I've always thought a lot of it is mental though, guys all of the sudden act like they never had to slip a punch before, I've seen it amongst mma'rs too, although sometimes i think it's just a matter of respect because you'll have some non-fighter, sparring a champion but it looks like they give up before they start. Duran had a horrible night against tommy, couldn't get past the jab, stood up straight as if that would help. Then Hagler came along and just showed that you can't respect a guy like that if you want to win. Tommy was formidable, as far as speed, he was about as fast with single punches as anyone in those years, he wasn't a great combo puncher but his speed gave him the versatility to outbox Ray (along with the reach) and his speed completely confused Duran, he couldn't seen shit in that fight.

 

[mozfonky]

Clay-Liston. Although the speed and atlethicism difference was so high that Listons superior range didn't amount to anything.

it's crazy but liston had some fast hands himself, his biggest problem was he couldn't get to ali who had masterful defense and he couldn't cut off the ring at all because he didn't know how. Liebling opined once that Liston was as fast as Patterson, he was wrong, but for him to say that is really something.

 

[mozfonky]

lol hadn't seen that fight. I just watched it now. Messed up ending!

ya, mike seemed bent on proving to everyone how right they were about his mental stability, trying to break bothas arms, getting disqualified, biting nipples as well as ears. That's why i was worried about Roy, a guy who's actually broken like that won't be able to stop. Look at that one fuck from mma? the guy who keeps reefing on arms when they already tapped. Lots of guys are like that in the lower levels of mma but top guys are too self assured to pull that shit in most cases.

 

[tekkennlee]

On a secondary note, I always wanted to see Tyson face a guy his height or shorter where he didn't have to close the distance.

Prime Tua vs prime Tyson

Tyson was better at that style then Tua and had better ment

Ray was letting Tommy dictate the later rounds and even though Ray was actually doing the most damage, Tommy had a shot of winning on points. Whether the fight should have been that close, alot of people disagreed at the time but it was and Angelo's words were enough to get him to attack a fighter who was hurt and tired. Ray had the eye problem, could only see out one eye so both men had issues. That fight probably ended the prime of ray as most people think that's where the detached retina happened.

As far as the jab and Hearn's length, yes, that was a problem for many guys who Tommy fought. I've always thought a lot of it is mental though, guys all of the sudden act like they never had to slip a punch before, I've seen it amongst mma'rs too, although sometimes i think it's just a matter of respect because you'll have some non-fighter, sparring a champion but it looks like they give up before they start. Duran had a horrible night against tommy, couldn't get past the jab, stood up straight as if that would help. Then Hagler came along and just showed that you can't respect a guy like that if you want to win. Tommy was formidable, as far as speed, he was about as fast with single punches as anyone in those years, he wasn't a great combo puncher but his speed gave him the versatility to outbox Ray (along with the reach) and his speed completely confused Duran, he couldn't seen shit in that fight.

Tommy's jab was hurting Ray and it has power, Ray was trying to counter punch Tommy but it wasn't working as soon as Ray starting backing Tommy up and getting inside Tommy was lost, he couldn't fight on the inside, before that Tommy was in control winning the fight he was dictating the action using better defense and backing Ray up, even the commentary and Angelo said Ray is blowing the fight because he hasn't adjusted to Tommy, Ray decided to start pressuring Tommy getting past his Jab.

Hearns jab was fast powerful and had a snap, it was powerful enough to damage Ray's eye, so getting hit with that jab hurts and does damage Tommy had a quick snap on his jab, so at times it was hard to get past.



Hagler understood he couldn't outbox Tommy with his length and size, Tommy would chop him up with movement and that jab, Hearns would just jab busting him up then throw his right hand, Hagler decided to fight on the inside like Ray started doing because Hearns would have trouble on the inside pressure Tommy stay in his chest smothering his right and he can't jab, Tommy did catch Hagler with a power punch staggering him but Hagler had a solid chin, once it went a couple of rounds Tommy with his thin legs started to fatigue he got caught pulling out with his head straight up and went down.



Ray thought his size would be to much in their first fight, going 15 rounds with Ray in his chest Duran would eventually weaken and fold getting stopped that was the game plan, but Duran was stronger then Rays team thought, Duran also was a better counter puncher then Ray, something that has always bothered Ray, Duran also hurt Ray a couple of times in the fight, after round 3 or 5 when Ray got buzzed, he understood that he wasn't bothering Duran and Duran was the better inside counter puncher he should've got on his toes boxing with movement, then the fight would've been easy after that point to a unanimous win, but he didn't change his style until the rematch.



Basically Ray and his team thought little Duran can't bother me my size strength, I will eventually wear him down to the point I stop him, but that didn't happen, Ray never adjusted to take the later rounds and the fight.

 

[aries]

ya, mike seemed bent on proving to everyone how right they were about his mental stability, trying to break bothas arms, getting disqualified, biting nipples as well as ears. That's why i was worried about Roy, a guy who's actually broken like that won't be able to stop. Look at that one fuck from mma? the guy who keeps reefing on arms when they already tapped. Lots of guys are like that in the lower levels of mma but top guys are too self assured to pull that shit in most cases.

Yeah I think Tyson was in self-destruct mode. He'd already been warned for hitting on the break before that shot after the bell. Orlin milked it though. He wasn't really hurt.

 

[deucesarewild]

If he is "forced to", then yes, he will have to Duke it out much closer than he wants, which is what Vitali did.

This is part of the reason I always felt Lewis' jab was a touch overrated, and we all already knew his footwork was good enough, but not great. If his jab and small steps for footwork were better he would have jammed up Vitali more.

Wlad, I always thought had a much better jab than Lewis, but Lewis was better at fighting up close if he had to (even though he was bad for clinching, too, but people have selective memories). Wlad liked things tidy for him to be at his best, but Lewis could fight in the mud and be less distressed.

 

[mozfonky]

Tyson was better at that style then Tua and had better ment




Tommy's jab was hurting Ray and it has power, Ray was trying to counter punch Tommy but it wasn't working as soon as Ray starting backing Tommy up and getting inside Tommy was lost, he couldn't fight on the inside, before that Tommy was in control winning the fight he was dictating the action using better defense and backing Ray up, even the commentary and Angelo said Ray is blowing the fight because he hasn't adjusted to Tommy, Ray decided to start pressuring Tommy getting past his Jab.

Hearns jab was fast powerful and had a snap, it was powerful enough to damage Ray's eye, so getting hit with that jab hurts and does damage Tommy had a quick snap on his jab, so at times it was hard to get past.



Hagler understood he couldn't outbox Tommy with his length and size, Tommy would chop him up with movement and that jab, Hearns would just jab busting him up then throw his right hand, Hagler decided to fight on the inside like Ray started doing because Hearns would have trouble on the inside pressure Tommy stay in his chest smothering his right and he can't jab, Tommy did catch Hagler with a power punch staggering him but Hagler had a solid chin, once it went a couple of rounds Tommy with his thin legs started to fatigue he got caught pulling out with his head straight up and went down.



Ray thought his size would be to much in their first fight, going 15 rounds with Ray in his chest Duran would eventually weaken and fold getting stopped that was the game plan, but Duran was stronger then Rays team thought, Duran also was a better counter puncher then Ray, something that has always bothered Ray, Duran also hurt Ray a couple of times in the fight, after round 3 or 5 when Ray got buzzed, he understood that he wasn't bothering Duran and Duran was the better inside counter puncher he should've got on his toes boxing with movement, then the fight would've been easy after that point to a unanimous win, but he didn't change his style until the rematch.



Basically Ray and his team thought little Duran can't bother me my size strength, I will eventually wear him down to the point I stop him, but that didn't happen, Ray never adjusted to take the later rounds and the fight.

I don't know if it was that, Ray always said that Duran pissed him off and made him want to slug. He called his wife a puta and was just as nasty as only duran could be and it got to ray. Ray had it planned and no one could change his mind, it just didn't work and even though he changed tactics in the late rounds, it wasn't enough, it was still a close fight. Leonard-Hearns was really a spectacle, both men being forced to take on the others style and ray was slowing down after a strong middle rounds, he was "blowing it" by letting tommy take the slow rounds. He knew what had to be done and he did it, he says he went on a rampage, that's pretty much what he did, just put it all out there and let the chips fall where they may. He close the show in fine fashion, Tommy protested the stoppage but he had nothing left at all and ray was just giving him a beating that took him a couple years to get over.

 

[Blazeblack]

From what I’ve seen tall out fighters tend to engage in a battle of jabs. Brawling isn’t something you tend to see.

 

[tekkennlee]

I don't know if it was that, Ray always said that Duran pissed him off and made him want to slug. He called his wife a puta and was just as nasty as only duran could be and it got to ray. Ray had it planned and no one could change his mind, it just didn't work and even though he changed tactics in the late rounds, it wasn't enough, it was still a close fight. Leonard-Hearns was really a spectacle, both men being forced to take on the others style and ray was slowing down after a strong middle rounds, he was "blowing it" by letting tommy take the slow rounds. He knew what had to be done and he did it, he says he went on a rampage, that's pretty much what he did, just put it all out there and let the chips fall where they may. He close the show in fine fashion, Tommy protested the stoppage but he had nothing left at all and ray was just giving him a beating that took him a couple years to get over.

Tommy's legs were completely gone, jello, even the commentary said this, Ray was still in great conditioning, he could go another 5 rounds after the 15th, he wasn't even breathing hard, his energy got better after he knocked Tommy down but the reff didn't count it as a knockdown the ropes held Tommy up, but the same thing happened with the second knockdown but the reff counted it as a knockdown, then Ray hurts him again and knows Hearns is done, Ray startscelebrating with his fist, then the lighting quick combos and it's over, a great fight.

Ray never should've fought Duran the way he did and never should've came back after the light heavy belt win against Lalonde because he was shot early at 34 against Norris but he thought he could keep going his time was done but he kept coming back and getting embarrassed by okay champions not great champions.

 

[JSN]

You don’t need to brawl, but definitely someone who’s spent their entire career bring the bigger man is going to have to adjust.

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

My fav example of this in mma is Conor vs diaz "3 times my size".

]

Well, he beat Henry akinwande

by DQ, cause he kept holding and clinching lewis.
Lewis was better than him everywhere, and he had no answer for anything he does except to hug him for dear life.

 

[JayE]

Well, he beat Henry akinwande

Michael Grant, too.