Is Foreman a better boxer than Ali since he destroyed fighters Ali had wars with (and lost to)

spacetime said:
He had very long limbs for his time and could use his no style as style due to the usual range advantage, coupled with the things already mentioned. People forget how rangy he was. He could have easily fallen prey anyway if he didn't have excellent ring craftmanship, because his style was very loose...

So i would say ring craftmanship
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so, you think it was because he was bigger? I don't really know, that's why i'm asking, i've seen thousands of fighters, of all sizes and all different strengths and most of them are better taught than ali. it's really amazing what he pulled off, he was a genius of sorts.
 
Jello Boyka said:
Ali was better
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i listened to a ray boom boom mancini interview the other day, he mentioned why mayweather would beat Pacquiao every time "bigger, faster stronger, the trifecta of sports" but is that true? I immediately thought of old Ali, who with his diminished leg movement, probably wasn't as strong as george although he sure muscled the hell out of him, and norman mailer had an interesting sentence in his book about the fight, that foreman's hands looked as fast ali's in the zaire heat. perhaps ali said it best, "the bull is stronger but the matador is smarter".
 
mozfonky said:
so, you think it was because he was bigger? I don't really know, that's why i'm asking, i've seen thousands of fighters, of all sizes and all different strengths and most of them are better taught than ali. it's really amazing what he pulled off, he was a genius of sorts.
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He had the size of large fighter but the slickness of a small one. His jab was both long and fast. He was big yet fast. These two things are what set him apart.

Tyson was fast and powerful but physically small. Foreman was big but slow.

Ali had a power deficit of sorts but his style did not revolve around power anyway.
 
Thats a tough question. Ali is always considered the goat by almost everyone, but thats more due to his personality even though of course you could also make a case for him being the best heavyweight ever. He really struggled with Norton and Frazier, and one could argue that he even lost those rivalrys. Foreman totally wrecked those guys. On the other hand Ali beat a young prime Foreman. But would he have won a rematch against a better prepared Foreman? The ropetrick wouldnt have worked twice thats for sure. It really is a question of what you rate more important and wether you think a rematch would have gone different.
 
spacetime said:
Many people don't think he won anyone of them, and that he was lucky that Frazier had a doctors stoppage
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Ali clearly won the rematch. He was ahead on all scorecards in the rubber match.
And it was Joe's trainer who stopped the fight, not the doctor.
 
spacetime said:
Frazier certainly didn't think so
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Stop quoting me you assface.
You're just looking for pointless discussions because you're bored. Why don't you buy a dog that you can take for a walk? Or register yourself as a volunteer campaigner.
 
defjaam said:
How could anyone argue that he lost the trilogy against Frazier?
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Well in the third fight Ali told his corner to cut his gloves open after round 14. At the same time Fraziers trainer ended the fight. So basically both corners gave up at exactly the same time. Only difference was that the information that Fraziers corner was giving up reached the ref quicker, thats why Ali won. Ali wanted to give up, but Fraziers trainer gave up aswell. You tell me who truly won that fight. Ali collapsed after he stood up to celebrate.
 
YourBoss said:
Well in the third fight Ali told his corner to cut his gloves open after round 14. At the same time Fraziers trainer ended the fight. So basically both corners gave up at exactly the same time. Only difference was that the information that Fraziers corner was giving up reached the ref quicker, thats why Ali won. Ali wanted to give up, but Fraziers trainer gave up aswell. You tell me who truly won that fight. Ali collapsed after he stood up to celebrate.
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Given everything you mentionned, Ali won that fight. It’s no rocket science.
 
the ali haters, some of whom have been semi-closeted (teddy brenner) have said things like ali lost the frazier rematch. You'd have to really hate his guts to believe that, he smacked frazier around and if he didn't get the decision it would have only made it look like the judges really did hate him like he said after the first fight that he lost.
 
mozfonky said:
the ali haters, some of whom have been semi-closeted (teddy brenner) have said things like ali lost the frazier rematch. You'd have to really hate his guts to believe that, he smacked frazier around and if he didn't get the decision it would have only made it look like the judges really did hate him like he said after the first fight that he lost.
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Also Frazier almost got stopped, before the referee saved him for whatever reason in the rematch.

But the Manilla fight is even less debatable, because it was a legitimate TKO.

Things like "Ali wanted to quit" are boxing folklore... I think everyone wants to quit after 14 rounds of trading heavy blows. The fight took the sharpness that was left in Ali, and the rubber match against Norton left him shot completely.
 
defjaam said:
Also Frazier almost got stopped, before the referee saved him for whatever reason in the rematch.

But the Manilla fight is even less debatable, because it was a legitimate TKO.

Things like "Ali wanted to quit" are boxing folklore... I think everyone wants to quit after 14 rounds of trading heavy blows. The fight took the sharpness that was left in Ali, and the rubber match against Norton left him shot completely.
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yes, he was diminished after the layoff, again after the first frazier fight, shot after the third, then went on to win against norton, shavers, lose against spinks and wring one more win out of his abused body, the man was phenomenal.
 
Most top boxers after Ali were better than Ali because they beat the man who beat the man who beat Ali.

Trevor Berbick beat Ali; therefore Bernardo Mercado, Mike Tyson, Renaldo Snipes, S.T. Gordon, Carl Williams, James Douglas, James Thunder, Hasim Rahman, Lyle McDowell and Tony La Rosa were better than Ali.

Larry Holmes beat Ali; therefore Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Oliver McCall and Brian Nielsen were better than Ali.

Leon Spinks beat Ali; therefore Muhammad Ali, Gerrie Coetzee, Carles De Leon, Dwight Muhammad Qawi, Rocky Sekorski, Jose Ribalta, Angelo Mesone, Terry Mims, Ladislao Mijangos, Randall Cobb, Tony Morrison, Kevin P Porter, James Wilder, Shane Sutcliffe, John Carlo and Fred Houpe were better than Ali.
 
Ali's fame and legend is not just about boxing but to have the courage and character to stand up against injustice. To speak on behalf of fairness and morality during the time when people viewed government as good and fair. After the bush era, people became anti government but for many decades, we listened to our political leaders as if they were a higher life form.

During this time, Ali called them out on their wicked ways and for this reason, he will always be remembered as a legendary pop culture hero inside and outside the ring!
 
spacetime said:
Both.
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How you can claim better boxer is beyond me, you do know what people mean when they say "boxer" right? sweet science.

Ali's Left foot had more boxing skill than Foreman, all Foreman did was hold his hands out like a mummy and try and corner people.

Fighter, yes maybe, but boxer ......... get outta here.

Ali is one of if not the best HW boxer (skill wise) of all time, only Holmes, Fury and a couple others are even in that conversation.

Fighter ......... for me is a toss up, yes Ali won the Rumble in the Jungle, but if Foreman kept his cool and focus, does this result happen twice? or even the first time?

This would be a case of lightening striking twice, Ali won because he had a tactic Foreman just ran into and didn't realise he was being set up to fail, he wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

........... proving my point, Foreman may be a more dangerous fighter, but he got out boxed.
 
Boxer said:
How you can claim better boxer is beyond me, you do know what people mean when they say "boxer" right? sweet science.

Ali's Left foot had more boxing skill than Foreman, all Foreman did was hold his hands out like a mummy and try and corner people.

Fighter, yes maybe, but boxer ......... get outta here.

Ali is one of if not the best HW boxer (skill wise) of all time, only Holmes, Fury and a couple others are even in that conversation.

Fighter ......... for me is a toss up, yes Ali won the Rumble in the Jungle, but if Foreman kept his cool and focus, does this result happen twice? or even the first time?

This would be a case of lightening striking twice, Ali won because he had a tactic Foreman just ran into and didn't realise he was being set up to fail, he wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

........... proving my point, Foreman may be a more dangerous fighter, but he got out boxed.
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Ali's technique was not great. He punched from his toes, flared his elbow etc. . It was very ironic of him referring to himself as scientific when everything he did was home cooked. He didn't even slip punches.
 
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