Is Gordon Ryan really GOAT over Roger and Marcelo?

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I have immense respect for Roger and even more for MG. One thing I can't blame Gordon for is his lack of desire in competing in the Gi. It's philosophical.... The gi was simply what every Japanese person wore back in the day and so the techniques reflected that.

Nogi is simply a style of grappling that doesn't have handles and easily transfers to MMA. Nogi is a faster art that favors athleticism and conditioning. I can't blame any modern jiu Jitsu person for abandoning refusing to compete in the gii. I like the gi because it is what I started with in BJJ, but if someone doesn't want to do it all, I don't think it is because they are cowards or afraid.

* I personally think MG is the best overall. He was often smaller, and showed great innovation WITHOUT A MASTERMIND showing him what to do. Gurgel is great, but Danaher spoon fed the great Gordon Ryan. MG is pound for pound my favorite & best of ALL TIME.

I agree with your general point, and Id like to correct a common misconception:
The Gi has nothing to do, and is nowhere close to what Japanese were (and still are) wearing on a daily basis.

The Gi is a sport practice attire, typical for jacket wrestling styles all over the planet, including Europe and Central Asia.

Japan had (and still has) a No Gi style, dating even before the Gi styles started and that is Sumo, although belt grips are allowed.

Point been, "dressed like a Japanese peasant" metaphore, regarding Gi grappling is simply not true.

 

[Coconutwater]

I agree with your general point, and Id like to correct a common misconception:
The Gi has nothing to do, and is nowhere close to what Japanese were (and still are) wearing on a daily basis.

The Gi is a sport practice attire, typical for jacket wrestling styles all over the planet, including Europe and Central Asia.

Japan had (and still has) a No Gi style, dating even before the Gi styles started and that is Sumo, although belt grips are allowed.

Point been, "dressed like a Japanese peasant" metaphore, regarding Gi grappling is simply not true.

Japanese peasants or common folk didn’t wear a gi, but they did wear clothing cut in a way that resembled a gi.

I’m guessing the gi is just a reinforced version of common clothing, created for the rigors of training.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Japanese peasants or common folk didn’t wear a gi, but they did wear clothing cut in a way that resembled a gi.

I’m guessing the gi is just a reinforced version of common clothing, created for the rigors of training.

View attachment 848370

This type of clothing was not only typical for Japan, is what Im saying

All Central Asia and Caucasus mountains region has the same style of jacket, as a traditional clothing, hence all the folk styles, such as Kurash, Chidaoba and etc, have similar style of training uniform.

Its simply the best uniform, if you are practicing a sport, that has jacket gripping for throws as main objective.

Anything with buttons will result in repair after every training session.

They all have belts too.

Some (such as Sumo, Ssyrium, Bokh and Belt Wrestling) are wearing mainly a belt...

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Japanese peasants or common folk didn’t wear a gi, but they did wear clothing cut in a way that resembled a gi.

I’m guessing the gi is just a reinforced version of common clothing, created for the rigors of training.

View attachment 848370

Oh, and BTW, the image you have posted, presents incorrect image.

Type "ukiyo-e" in Google to see depictions of medieval Japan in its origins.
You will quickly understand the difference:

Pants were not very common in Japan's peasants daily life.

 

[rmongler]

Oh, and BTW, the image you have posted, presents incorrect image.

Type "ukiyo-e" in Google to see depictions of medieval Japan in its origins.
You will quickly understand the difference:

Pants were not very common in Japan's peasants daily life.

>tfwywn rock out in a fundoshi with the bros

 

[kintana]

In NO-GI, I think he is the GOAT.

Overall GOAT in grappling that will be a no for me and I am bias because I trained at Roger's for 7 years, Roger is the GOAT.

He was successful in Gi, NO GI and MMA. He also has never been submitted in competition for his top level career.

 

[Coconutwater]

Oh, and BTW, the image you have posted, presents incorrect image.

Type "ukiyo-e" in Google to see depictions of medieval Japan in its origins.
You will quickly understand the difference:

Pants were not very common in Japan's peasants daily life.

But I would imagine normal people had to have worn clothes that had two lapels that where capable of overlapping, much like a bathrobe. I’m guessing this is what the gi is roughly based on, only more durable since it would be used in practice often.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

But I would imagine normal people had to have worn clothes that had two lapels that where capable of overlapping, much like a bathrobe. I’m guessing this is what the gi is roughly based on, only more durable since it would be used in practice often.

If anything resembles the Gi, is the coats used by upper societies, definitely not peasants, who use to wear those:

Meanwhile in Dagestan:

See the similarities?

Also, in Kazakhstan:

Armenia:

And Bulgaria:

All of the above dont use much buttons and have... thats right, lapels.
Hence:

Georgian Chidaoba uniform, one of the main sports, listed as Sambo grandfathers.
Lapels, belts:

Uzbekistan Kurash uniform.
Lapels, sleeves, belt:

Mongolian Bokh.
Different form, but general grips around upper body (essentially sleeves and lapel) and lower body (essentially a belt) are kept:

Funny enough, I posted an article on my website some weeks ago, regarding folk wrestling styles around the world and their main purpose:
http://yagadome.com/folk/

 

[Coconutwater]

If anything resembles the Gi, is the coats used by upper societies, definitely not peasants, who use to wear those:

Meanwhile in Dagestan:

See the similarities?

Also, in Kazakhstan:

Armenia:

And Bulgaria:

All of the above dont use much buttons and have... thats right, lapels.
Hence:

Georgian Chidaoba uniform, one of the main sports, listed as Sambo grandfathers.
Lapels, belts:

Uzbekistan Kurash uniform.
Lapels, sleeves, belt:

Mongolian Bokh.
Different form, but general grips around upper body (essentially sleeves and lapel) and lower body (essentially a belt) are kept:

Funny enough, I posted an article on my website some weeks ago, regarding folk wrestling styles around the world and their main purpose:
http://yagadome.com/folk/

Okay, so maybe not the peasants, but the ruling class, samurai etc...

The point being, a gi was something they learned in because it mimicked what they'd most likely be forced to fight in or defend.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Okay, so maybe not the peasants, but the ruling class, samurai etc...

The point being, a gi was something they learned in because it mimicked what they'd most likely be forced to fight in or defend.

Upper class doesnt fight
Its against the idea of been "upper".
They get protected instead.

And yes, it resembles a clothing, not specifically Japanese (as demonstrated above) and not a peasant one.

The Gi is a training uniform with quite old roots, existing long before Judo or even Jiujitsu.
Its just that the other jacket wrestling styles did not become famous before that.

Look at Sambo kurtkas.
Nobody calls them Soviet peasant clothing

 

[Coconutwater]

Upper class doesnt fight
Its against the idea of been "upper".
They get protected instead.

And yes, it resembles a clothing, not specifically Japanese (as demonstrated above) and not a peasant one.

The Gi is a training uniform with quite old roots, existing long before Judo or even Jiujitsu.
Its just that the other jacket wrestling styles did not become famous before that.

Look at Sambo kurtkas.
Nobody calls them Soviet peasant clothing

Yeah, I just wanted to illustrate “old clothing” from way back and peasant was a easy, convenient term I choose that is historically incorrect. Regardless of who, the gi was used to be “useful” in their training for fighting should the need arise.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Yeah, I just wanted to illustrate “old clothing” from way back and peasant was a easy, convenient term I choose that is historically incorrect. Regardless of who, the gi was used to be “useful” in their training for fighting should the need arise.

Dont get me wrong.
It wasnt you I heard this nonsense for the first time from.
And since not many people are familiar with the origins of gi (gis actually, because there are many different styles), I think at least we should know a quick comeback to those remarks with the simple:
- Its actually based on Santa Claus.

 

[N1njaTurtle]

GOAT arguments are dumb. The future is always going to have better technique. Could Gordon Ryan beat either of them NoGI probably but in GI, he would not. Gordon Ryan does not do Gi because he does not have to. He has his niche cornered and quite frankly, he would be outclassed and have no chance in absolute.

Were Marcelo and Roger the innovators of the martial art of their era? Yes. To the same level as Gordon Ryan? More so. Also, Roger and Marcelo did not have a Danaher. I truly do not think Marcelo or Roger Gracie used PEDs but it is obvious Gordon Ryan does. IMO, Marcelo and Roger are ahead of Gordon Ryan for the BJJ Mt Rushmore.

And the GI is the traditional uniform of Judo and BJJ, to say it does not mean anything is disrespectful to the art. You can say you prefer no-gi but you cannot say the gi holds no meaning to jiujitsu. Martial arts have always had uniforms. Just because jiujitsu is the most casual in terms of tradition, does not mean you get to totally dismiss the art. I prefer the gi and I have trained in both. No-gi requires more wrestling/physicality and less puzzle solving. One is not better than the other, they are just different and you should train both if you are at all serious about being a grappler.

 

[sb413197]

But who's the GOAT grappler

Karelin

 

[Ishaq]

John Danaher

 

[rmongler]

No-gi requires more wrestling/physicality and less puzzle solving. One is not better than the other

Lmao.

 

[yetanother]

Lmao.

If you look at modern adcc a lot of the guys take a boatload of roids and do bad wrestling.
Often looks like a shitshow rather then a pinacle of something.
How well do you think would Lucas Barbosa or Nick Roid in the standup against Kyle Snyder?

 

[rmongler]

If you look at modern adcc a lot of the guys take a boatload of roids and do bad wrestling.
Often looks like a shitshow rather then a pinacle of something.
How well do you think would Lucas Barbosa or Nick Roid in the standup against Kyle Snyder?

Indeed, they lack relevant problem solving capability necessary to put on a good performance in such areas.

 

[Hanz_Blitz]

Roger accomplished more in 05 then anything Ryan has done. Submit all 8 winning double gold trumps what Ryan did. I also think 05-11 Roger beats the current GR head to head. Marcelo is neck n neck with GR

 

[RemyR]

Not bothering to read what I’m sure is a civil thread on the matter but IMO Gordon > Roger > Marcelo.

Although it’s close between Roger and Gordon.