Is Gordon Ryan really GOAT over Roger and Marcelo?

To me bjj is about gi and no gi. Both Marcelo and roger won titles in both which is why they are goat contenders. Gordon, not so much
 
randomg1t said:
in terms of accomplishments, alexander karelin.

and i don't think it's even close.
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Bovaiser Saitiev is GOAT to me. Same amount of Olympic golds in Freestyle as Karelin did in Greco and Freestyle has got to be more competitive than Greco, especially at that weight class.
 
Normot said:
Bovaiser Saitiev is GOAT to me. Same amount of Olympic golds in Freestyle as Karelin did in Greco and Freestyle has got to be more competitive than Greco, especially at that weight class.
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i can't claim to be a wrestling expert, i admit my knowledge is very limited... but karelin went undefeated in international competition for 13 years, the last 6 without having a single point scored against him.

i'm not saying your choice is wrong, i'm just trying to justify why i think karelin should be #1. i can't think of anyone else dominating their sport this thoroughly for such a long period. it's an insane accomplishment.

but yeah. anyone who takes 3 olympic medals in wrestling has a rightful place in this conversation, no doubt.
 
randomg1t said:
i can't claim to be a wrestling expert, i admit my knowledge is very limited... but karelin went undefeated in international competition for 13 years, the last 6 without having a single point scored against him.

i'm not saying your choice is wrong, i'm just trying to justify why i think karelin should be #1. i can't think of anyone else dominating their sport this thoroughly for such a long period. it's an insane accomplishment.

but yeah. anyone who takes 3 olympic medals in wrestling has a rightful place in this conversation, no doubt.
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Just doing my part to get people to google/youtube Buvaisar Saitiev
 
Pretty much yes ..

Bigger, stronger , more technical, more modern ... don’t @ me

The game has evolved so much in a decade .. hell Dillon danis is probably better than them too
 
Jeff Goldblum69 said:
Pretty much yes ..

Bigger, stronger , more technical, more modern ... don’t @ me

The game has evolved so much in a decade .. hell Dillon danis is probably better than them too
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i tend to agree that modern day athletes are generally better, and there is a case to be made for gordon ryan. he truly is a phenom.

but lol at dillon danis being better than roger and marcelo. dillon is an accomplished competitor, but he's a fucking nobody compared to those two.
 
randomg1t said:
in terms of accomplishments, alexander karelin.

and i don't think it's even close.
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He was something else. Siberia spit out a 1 in a billion athlete when he was born. People always claim roids, but if you look at his physique from early 20s to mid 30s there is a clear, clear, decline. Never tested positive and a lot of his competitors did. If he did juice he must have fucked up because he could have continued to get more ripped and bigger in his 30s even on trt dosages.
 
randomg1t said:
i tend to agree that modern day athletes are generally better, and there is a case to be made for gordon ryan. he truly is a phenom.

but lol at dillon danis being better than roger and marcelo. dillon is an accomplished competitor, but he's a fucking nobody compared to those two.
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Social media wise Dillion is a embarrassment.. no doubt .. stuff he’s says about beating Jon Jones @ mma is just retarded ... BUT ... he is very, very high level @ BJJ , and his match against Ryan was very close, (many say he won) and he trains with absolute killers everyday ..

All These guys are light years ahead of dudes from 10 even 5 years ago....
.. Anyway Dannis was just a name I threw out there to shock and to prove my point that the modern BJJ athletes ARE the best ever .. I could have easily have said Craig Jones, Keenan instead ..
 
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mattemate said:
But conisder-- Roger and Gordon are really from the same lineage, sure Roger went to black basically under his dad, but then it's been mostly Renzo since then. There's been a lot of cross training. Roger knows the game.
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Not really , training under danaher is a split in the space time continuum.. Its not the same as training under Gomez or Gracie ..
 
Jeff Goldblum69 said:
Social media wise Dillion is a embarrassment.. no doubt .. stuff he’s says about beating Jon Jones @ mma is just retarded ... BUT ... he is very, very high level @ BJJ , and his match against Ryan was very close, (many say he won) and he trains with absolute killers everyday ..

All These guys are light years ahead of dudes from 10 even 5 years ago....
.. Anyway Dannis was just a name I threw out there to shock and to prove my point that the modern BJJ athletes ARE the best ever .. I could have easily have said Craig Jones, Keenan instead ..
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right, and neither keenan nor craig jones are anywhere near roger or marcelo either.

like i said, someone like ryan may be better right now. he is owning people left and right, and it's to be expected. the best guy right now should be better than the best guy 20 years ago. a lot of people have trouble accepting that, but i think it's generally true and just the natural progression in sports.

but every few generations you get outliers, and roger and marcelo were definitely that. roger's last mundials run was in 2010, and when he had a competitive match with buchecha in 2012, i was certain he would lose the 2017 rematch. except he didn't and choked buchecha on pretty much first contact.

roger is still king and i don't even like him.
 
randomg1t said:
right, and neither keenan nor craig jones are anywhere near roger or marcelo either.

like i said, someone like ryan may be better right now. he is owning people left and right, and it's to be expected. the best guy right now should be better than the best guy 20 years ago. a lot of people have trouble accepting that, but i think it's generally true and just the natural progression in sports.

but every few generations you get outliers, and roger and marcelo were definitely that. roger's last mundials run was in 2010, and when he had a competitive match with buchecha in 2012, i was certain he would lose the 2017 rematch. except he didn't and choked buchecha on pretty much first contact.

roger is still king and i don't even like him.
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I think a of people here can’t grasp how different (advanced/ professional) BJJ has become in the last 5-10 ... The technique, the teaching, the school structure are all radically different .. as Ryan said, “it shouldn’t take you 10 years to be a bb” .. kids are radically improving at enormous speed, and it’s very common these days to see young purple subbing established bbs ... kids have such personalised and structured games that it really becoming a different sport to the BJJ you saw in the 80/90/00s .... plus the majority of athletes are much stronger and better conditioned ....

maybe some people here are romanticising the “glory days” .. or drinking the Gracie cool aid .. but I just can’t accept That someone who’s BJJ is so traditional eg Gracie (yes i understand how technically perfect it is ) would just walk in a own everyone on the modern era, without bothering to adapt to the times or techniques ... that’s ignorant, thats devolution.. that’s mythology

And you know who you start sounding like ? .. the boomers who use to say “Rickson by armbar” when they argued HE was better than the modern fighters of the 00s
 
Jeff Goldblum69 said:
as Ryan said, “it shouldn’t take you 10 years to be a bb” .. kids are radically improving at enormous speed, and it’s very common these days to see young purple subbing established bbs ...
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14 years in and still not a BB Lol I'm in the slow learner class
 
Jeff Goldblum69 said:
I think a of people here can’t grasp how different (advanced/ professional) BJJ has become in the last 5-10 ... The technique, the teaching, the school structure are all radically different .. as Ryan said, “it shouldn’t take you 10 years to be a bb” .. kids are radically improving at enormous speed, and it’s very common these days to see young purple subbing established bbs ... kids have such personalised and structured games that it really becoming a different sport to the BJJ you saw in the 80/90/00s .... plus the majority of athletes are much stronger and better conditioned ....

maybe some people here are romanticising the “glory days” .. or drinking the Gracie cool aid .. but I just can’t accept That someone who’s BJJ is so traditional eg Gracie (yes i understand how technically perfect it is ) would just walk in a own everyone on the modern era, without bothering to adapt to the times or techniques ... that’s ignorant, thats devolution.. that’s mythology

And you know who you start sounding like ? .. the boomers who use to say “Rickson by armbar” when they argued HE was better than the modern fighters of the 00s
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right, and i'm not saying renzo or royler could compete with today's best. i'm not romanticizing roger because of his last name. i'm doing it because 4 years ago he came back to jiu jitsu after a 5 year layoff (and actually 7 away from being an active bjj competitor) and clowned the guy at the time considered to be the best in the world. the difference between me and rickson fans is that i can back my argument with roger's and marcelo's credentials and accomplishments, and all they had was rickson's horseshit 400-0 record.

and i absolutely agree that the game has improved a lot. but it hasn't improved to the point where keenan, who couldn't win an ADCC title or a mundials title, would beat two of the most accomplished competitors from an era very close to keenan's own. same goes for craig jones, who is in fact a tremendous competitor, but his biggest achievement was placing second at ADCC, once. marcelo ruled his division with an iron fist for a decade. roger took double ADCC gold submitting everyone, in 2009 and 2010 he took double gold at mundials, both times submitting practically everyone with the same move.

i have a hard time believing the game has changed so much from 2017 that the roger who owned buchecha would struggle with today's keenan, or craig jones. i like keenan, but let's not shit ourselves here.
 
randomg1t said:
right, and i'm not saying renzo or royler could compete with today's best. i'm not romanticizing roger because of his last name. i'm doing it because 4 years ago he came back to jiu jitsu after a 5 year layoff (and actually 7 away from being an active bjj competitor) and clowned the guy at the time considered to be the best in the world. the difference between me and rickson fans is that i can back my argument with roger's and marcelo's credentials and accomplishments, and all they had was rickson's horseshit 400-0 record.

and i absolutely agree that the game has improved a lot. but it hasn't improved to the point where keenan, who couldn't win an ADCC title or a mundials title, would beat two of the most accomplished competitors from an era very close to keenan's own. same goes for craig jones, who is in fact a tremendous competitor, but his biggest achievement was placing second at ADCC, once. marcelo ruled his division with an iron fist for a decade. roger took double ADCC gold submitting everyone, in 2009 and 2010 he took double gold at mundials, both times submitting practically everyone with the same move.

i have a hard time believing the game has changed so much from 2017 that the roger who owned buchecha would struggle with today's keenan, or craig jones. i like keenan, but let's not shit ourselves here.
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I just can’t see roger or Garcia winning against Ryan in the modern game ... I’m not talking ibjjf..I’m talking professional no limit matches ...

The higher work load and training the newer athletes do alone would make me go all in if I was betting on them
 
Jeff Goldblum69 said:
I just can’t see roger or Garcia winning against Ryan in the modern game ... I’m not talking ibjjf..I’m talking professional no limit matches ...

The higher work load and training the newer athletes do alone would make me go all in if I was betting on them
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that's valid. like i said, ryan has a case to make against both of them.

i just disagree about dillon, jones, keenan and the like. i think they'd get humiliated, gi or no gi.
 
The sport of submission grappling is very very young. Marcelo and Roger were basically just using their BJJ to win at that new sport as it evolved. Gordon Ryan on the other hand, while a BJJ based guy himself obviously, is very much a submission grappler, not a BJJ competitor - and is game is designed around that. That being said, Gordon Ryan is so good at submission grappling and his top game is pressure based and methodical, that I think he could possibly do the reverse and compete in Gi BJJ with some degree of success given some time to specialize...he has no interest in doing that obviously.

Overall I think Roger and Marcelo are more accomplished than Gordon Ryan still. Even though the game has changed a lot I think a no-gi match between prime Roger and current Gordon would still have been very competitive and interesting, particularly if Roger pulled closed guard.
 
randomg1t said:
that's valid. like i said, ryan has a case to make against both of them.

i just disagree about dillon, jones, keenan and the like. i think they'd get humiliated, gi or no gi.
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I think Craig Jones is going to blow people away over the next two years. Yeah he got silver at last adcc but it was largely due to strategic errors in the finals. He was clearly the most well rounded submission grappler in that division, and he cut through everyone along the way.

At the moment he has added crushing passing and top pressure to his game. And frankly I’ve never seen anyone add so much to their game when already at the level he is. He has guillotines, darces, kimuras, and armbars that are about as good as I’ve seen from anyone. And I started following in 2005.

He has about an hour of rolling footage out there from this year alone and I think he’s just a notch below Gordon. He’s improved more in 2 years after an adcc silver than anyone I’ve watched grapple before.

Diniz could still be a tough match for him in 2022. But I think he’ll dominate everyone on the way to the finals even more next year than he did in 2019. And without Gordon on the absolute in 2022 I have Craig as a favorite to make the finals there too. He should be a double finalist at least.
 
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