Is Muhammad Ali the Michael Jordan of Boxing?

fuct. said:
You misunderstand a lot. I can't be bothered to explain everything.
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"Everything" would be asked too much from a moronic fella like you, since you don't brother to explain anything... Just baiting.
 
fuct. said:
Bore off!
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I'm more interested in who the Jimmy Smith (Boxer) of all other sports is.

 
Goober stoober said:
gotta say mayweather is a better comparison. unbeaten, both have legendary stamina and both were criticized for never being tested by the another true great in their prime.

ali is more like a kareem. they were both the best but they were perfect and they had a lasting cultural impact after they left their respective sports.
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Wait.... Jordan and Mayweather? lol Jordan dominated in one of the best eras of basketball.
 
Yehudim said:
I’m not one who believes that modern fighters are better than the black and white era but when you go so far back where you’re talking about Sullivan, I can’t help but think that the lack of footage transforms these guys into mythical beings. Harry Greb certainly has benefited from that. We know he was a monster but we literally can’t compare him to anyone without footage.

Even casual MMA fans understand Royce Gracie wasn’t the best and can’t be compared to the modern era of MMA. It’s an error to think that Sullivan had the skills and tools of people with over one hundred years of experience and a large opening up of the talent pool.
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I agree that fighters have indeed progressed, as all athletes have, and will continue to do so. This is why perspective and looking at fighters thru their time is important. I think Frazier would likely get dominated by prime Lewis, Klit, Wilder and Tyson Fury, just as Bob Cousy would be tooled by high level high school players today. A guy like Lewis beat everyone he ever faced, something Ali did aside from his last two fights, he also did it against bigger/badder/modern heavyweights, lost less, but many would scoff if you dared said Lewis was on Ali's level. Gene Tunney also beat everyone he ever faced, and had an amazing 79-1 record, but again, many would scoff if one dared compared Tunney to Ali.

What we do know of John L is his incredible record, and we also have data from that time on how the fights played out. He was the baddest man in the world and untouchable in his prime, was 47-0 bareknuckle and only lost one fight, to champion James Corbett, after being off for years and coming back for a big pay day with gloves - still took Gentleman Jim 21 bleeding rounds to put Geezer John away. Either you look at things thru the lens of time and Ali is not the best/most dominant, or you do not look at them thru the lens of time and there are probably a bunch of modern fighters that would be better.

When I think of Jordan, I think of almost a prime RJJ type level of dominance, just clowning and demolishing guys, never losing an exchange type of situation. Many of Ali's fights were close and he took alot of damage, looked mortal alot of the time, fought tooth and nail and was by no means some steam rolling machine. His heart, chin and ability to bounce back from defeat was what made him special, but more than anything, the reason we speak his name in such reverence is because of his impact as a cultural and civil rights figure. Lewis, Holmes, Liston, RJJ, Sugar Ray Robinson, Pernell, Tunney, Dempsey, Greb, etc were not the charismatic civil rights icons that Ali was, and as such, they often get over looked compared to Ali.
 
Ali at his best was something to behold, his best was in the 60's and it just so happens that he dominated the greatest generation of big men with about 80 percent of his mythical prime. He never fought in the prime fighters age with the exile and all. PFP he wasn't "The Greatest" even he admitted that after all the dust had settled but he was something special. The outside the ring stuff was what gained attention and was icing on the cake. Like his one time friend, malcolm X , he was a media genius and knew what would make people want to see his fights and how to get the big fights. He was also the best ever at psychological warfare. The list is long and exhaustive of the things that made him unique. Jordan was similar in his on court presence but nowhere near the outside of the arena charisma and personality. I've often been curious as to why Spike Lee was such a big fan of his when Jordan had none of the ingredients that Spike had often attacked in his contemporaries. I think he said something about the era Jordan was in made it ok for him to be apolitical.

Problem is, the word "Champion" is a word that is defined by representing others and that's not possible if you only represent yourself. Many "champions" have had a hard time with the public because on an instinctual level, everyone knows what a champion is even without the dictionary definition which is exactly what I'm talking about.
 
fuct. said:
Its strange you want a conspiracy when the facts are outrageous enough.
We all know you can choose to pay your tax dollars through a charity. You could pull up donations for any wealthy person in the public eye. Moving money around does not attest to your character.
Have you ever spent time outside the US?
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The facts aren't all that outrageous if you're aware of the Bush family's business ties to the Bin Laden family. That's all I'll be saying on the matter as it's off-topic.

If the charitable organization is tax-exempt and the contributor's donation qualifies as tax deductible then the donor can take advantage of the subsidy available to them, whatever % of tax relief that may provide depending on the type of donation and the bracket in which they fall (which in turn is used to determine their federal income tax rate). We don't know for a fact that he even claimed a deduction on his income taxes for that particular item (multi-million $ charitable donation). Unless of course you've seen his tax return(s)? It's a safe bet to assume that he did claim it, but, that's not the point.

There are also caps in place to limit annual deductions for both individuals and businesses (carryover would allow for subsequent returns to benefit from the deduction but it's usually capped at no more than 5 years). Since he pledged $100m it's probably been broken up into a $10m/year incremental structure. That would take a total of 10 years to fulfill, not 5. Making a charitable donation which has been incentivized as fully or partially deductible isn't why he's pledged an extremely generous 100 million dollars to the African-American community. It's clear that he's donating the 9 figures primarily for racial equality, social justice, and education access, just as the press release states. He's African-American himself so it's a cause that's close to him.

After stepping up to the plate (and this was two decades ago) his harshest critics, such as yourself, continue to unfairly criticize him. He could literally donate $1b and you guys would still find a way to shit on him. It's so sad and downright ridiculous! And yeah, I've spent time outside of the US. Get on with it already! What's your point?
 
My god you guys will forgive anything if there's enough money involved? (Bush)

And we're getting away from the topic. Giving money away(through tax loop holes or not) is great and all but if you think that alone puts him on a plateau with Ali, you need to re-calibrate your values.
As a the biggest Global Icon of sporting excellence and social justice, I say Ali, you say Jordan. Let's leave it there.

@Kovalev's "Man Bag"
 
fuct. said:
Giving money away(through tax loop holes or not) is great and all but if you think that alone puts him on a plateau with Ali, you need to re-calibrate your values.
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It was a legtimate response to a comment of yours in which you referred to Jordan as a "self serving asshole".
That moronic statement of yours was refuted as good as possible, yet you're dissatisfied... same mentality as the 9/11 truthers.
But truth be told: You're even a worse knucklehead than them, because you have no goal whatsoever aside from baiting.
 
defjaam said:
It was a legtimate response to a comment of yours in which you referred to Jordan as a "self serving asshole".
That moronic statement of yours was refuted as good as possible, yet you're dissatisfied... same mentality as the 9/11 truthers.
But truth be told: You're even a worse knucklehead than them, because you have no goal whatsoever aside from baiting.
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I never talk to you because I find you boring. If you find my posts distasteful, rather than get heated and start calling names, I suggest you talk to someone else.
 
You have of course to differentiate more and Jordan was/is also quite well known in Germany.
But if i had to put it short:
Ali was still THE GREATEST in Germany in the 90s - 00 far ahead in popularity to Michael Jordan beeing in his prime winning championships.
 
Sonxy said:
You have of course to differentiate more and Jordan was/is also quite well known in Germany.
But if i had to put it short:
Ali was still THE GREATEST in Germany in the 90s - 00 far ahead in popularity to Michael Jordan beeing in his prime winning championships.
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guess it depends on the region and part of the world, it's a big world and it's human nature to be ethnocentric but I always ask people from other countries about Bruce Lee and Muhammad Ali and they always know of them at least. I never ask about Michael Jordan but maybe they know him too. I don't know, it's s strange thing, you get men like Ali and Bruce and they just hit a chord across the globe and no one is really even sure why but they do.
 
mozfonky said:
guess it depends on the region and part of the world, it's a big world and it's human nature to be ethnocentric but I always ask people from other countries about Bruce Lee and Muhammad Ali and they always know of them at least. I never ask about Michael Jordan but maybe they know him too. I don't know, it's s strange thing, you get men like Ali and Bruce and they just hit a chord across the globe and no one is really even sure why but they do.
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I remember Joey Diaz talked on Joe Rogan's podcast about Bruce Lee and he said that Lee wasn't even that popular when he was alive... And that one had to go to Chinatown to find out about his death.
Maybe Joey was talking nonsense, but maybe Lee was a case like Tupac... Became a global phenomenon after his death.
 
defjaam said:
I remember Joey Diaz talked on Joe Rogan's podcast about Bruce Lee and he said that Lee wasn't even that popular when he was alive... And that one had to go to Chinatown to find out about his death.
Maybe Joey was talking nonsense, but maybe Lee was a case like Tupac... Became a global phenomenon after his death.
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Before my time and I've heard different things myself. I didn't know who he was until I was about 5 or 6 and he was dead. He's not like Prince who I remember seeing for the first time, he's more like Elvis who I think I may have seen some of his movies but didn't know who he was until he died.

I've read interviews from my mentor that he was having conversations with Bruce around 70 and telling him his movies were going "great guns" over here so I guess they were starting to hit enough to get hollywoods attention. Even today though, Bruce, unlike Elvis or Ali is often called a "cult" figure or a "b-movie" star by people who aren't as enthralled as many are. One thing I can tell you for sure though is I grew up around black people and they loved Bruce, in fact it was an afroed daycare worker who took all of us up for my first trip to his grave. Maybe it all comes down to what one book called it, something like, he represented "unarmed, one man omnipotence for people who couldn't afford a gun" who knows, like any hero or popular figure, it's hard to get a grip on.
 
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