Is Pacquiao a top 10 ATG?

don't quote me! said:
It is difficult to compare dominant champions (Louis, Ali, WLad, Hagler), with weight jumpers (Floyd, roy, manny Duran)

I put Roy and floyd ahead of manny, as they jumped weight and were dominant almost untouchable at the higher weight classes( well roy was until 2003)
Manny's record is a little patchier, but Henry armstrong's record is even patchier so I have him below manny for now.

Joe Louis has the most title defences at 1 weight class of all time, it would take a lot to be higher than him in the ranking, only the very best of the weight jumper IMO
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What I look at is the quality of their competition. There are actually quite a few guys who would have finished their careers unbeaten if they fought the same guys Louis fought. Not a knock on Louis, as he fought who was available and beat them. Holmes,Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, even Wlad would have beaten every guy that Louis beat. Same with Hagler, RJJ would have beaten every one of Hagler's wins, I'm not so sure Hagler would have beaten all of Roy's (Toney at his best would have outpointed Hagler IMO). Being dominant is something that should be considered, but when talking Pacquiao he didn't jump up and fight paper champions (Jones over Ruiz), he jumped and fought Barrera, Morales, JMM, Mosley, DLH, Margarito, Hatton, Bradley, Thurman etc. Even the guys who he doesn't really get credit for beating like Clottey, Larios, Vargas, Broner etc are very good fighters. Maybe not top level, but nowhere close to being the tomato cans that some of the old time guys who are considered "greats" built their records on.
 
Hard to imagine you could find 5 let alone 10 guys with resumes clearly better than Pac.
 
ssx said:
What I look at is the quality of their competition. There are actually quite a few guys who would have finished their careers unbeaten if they fought the same guys Louis fought. Not a knock on Louis, as he fought who was available and beat them. Holmes,Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, even Wlad would have beaten every guy that Louis beat. Same with Hagler, RJJ would have beaten every one of Hagler's wins, I'm not so sure Hagler would have beaten all of Roy's (Toney at his best would have outpointed Hagler IMO). Being dominant is something that should be considered, but when talking Pacquiao he didn't jump up and fight paper champions (Jones over Ruiz), he jumped and fought Barrera, Morales, JMM, Mosley, DLH, Margarito, Hatton, Bradley, Thurman etc. Even the guys who he doesn't really get credit for beating like Clottey, Larios, Vargas, Broner etc are very good fighters. Maybe not top level, but nowhere close to being the tomato cans that some of the old time guys who are considered "greats" built their records on.
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Which old time guys are you referring to? Judging by the names you list that would have been undefeated in Louis era(Holmes,Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, even Wlad ), are you suggesting most world level contenders before the 1970's were tomato cans, or is this just Louis' era?

Also do you feel (Holmes,Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, even Wlad ) are extra special, or is it that standards have improved dramatically across the board in boxing post 1970, in your view?

Louis' era certainly has it's problems, I just think the last 30/40 yrs has problems of it's own. You talk up these guys, but a classic modern problem is that neither Tyson, Lewis, Bowe or wlad faced their toughest rivals in their prime for a variety of reasons. This helps to hype everyone though and your judgement seems like a casualty of this(IMO). As an example of this, if Lewis smashes Bowe in 2 rounds (like he did in the olympics) in 1993, I wonder if many would list him as 1 of the greats, who would be undefeated in Louis era? If Bowe had smashed Lewis would you be venerating Lewis in the same way. There are no question marks from Louis' time as he beat everybody, many multiple times, so much so that they look like tomato cans on paper looking back, compared to Louis. Another modern problem is that you are listing lots of guys pacqauio beat, how many of those names would look as good without junior weight divisions and multiple world titles in each division?


Many underrate the Louis era, he not only has the record for the most defences, but lost 4 yrs of his career to ww2, but for this he could have easily have doubled the amount of defences he had(at the rate he fought ), which would have set a record that nobody could get even halfway toward
 
This really is a quality discussion. A thank you is owned to those who have contributed so far.

“Where am I?” Smiles
 
Top 20, no doubt. Top 15, pretty much a lock.

Top 10? There is definitely a case to be made for him but we are talking about the top 10 fighters in the history of boxing. There will be a lot of differing opinions on it and there will never be a consensus top 10. But Pacquiao‘s resume and list of accomplishments are pretty much unrivaled. I think he belongs in there because I can’t think of 10 other fighters who have accomplished more.
 
don't quote me! said:
Which old time guys are you referring to? Judging by the names you list that would have been undefeated in Louis era(Holmes,Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, even Wlad ), are you suggesting most world level contenders before the 1970's were tomato cans, or is this just Louis' era?

Also do you feel (Holmes,Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, even Wlad ) are extra special, or is it that standards have improved dramatically across the board in boxing post 1970, in your view?

Louis' era certainly has it's problems, I just think the last 30/40 yrs has problems of it's own. You talk up these guys, but a classic modern problem is that neither Tyson, Lewis, Bowe or wlad faced their toughest rivals in their prime for a variety of reasons. This helps to hype everyone though and your judgement seems like a casualty of this(IMO). As an example of this, if Lewis smashes Bowe in 2 rounds (like he did in the olympics) in 1993, I wonder if many would list him as 1 of the greats, who would be undefeated in Louis era? If Bowe had smashed Lewis would you be venerating Lewis in the same way. There are no question marks from Louis' time as he beat everybody, many multiple times, so much so that they look like tomato cans on paper looking back, compared to Louis. Another modern problem is that you are listing lots of guys pacqauio beat, how many of those names would look as good without junior weight divisions and multiple world titles in each division?


Many underrate the Louis era, he not only has the record for the most defences, but lost 4 yrs of his career to ww2, but for this he could have easily have doubled the amount of defences he had(at the rate he fought ), which would have set a record that nobody could get even halfway toward
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Not at all claiming all pre 70’s contenders were tomato cans, but fact is advancements in training, diet, “supplements”, weight cutting, recovery etc have all grown by leaps and bounds. Thus a lot of guys would be fighting at LHW in today’s game.

I do feel that Holmes, Tyson and Lewis were extra special regarding HW’s. Bowe and Wlad are special but a notch below.

Of the guys I mentioned above, Bowe or Wlad would be considered the weakest by most. Bowe was around 6’5”, quick hands, good chin, great inside fighter and packed lots of power. Wlad was even bigger than Bowe, with more power. Of course his chin is somewhat questionable, but I just can’t see guys who average 5’11” -6’ and weigh between 185-190 beating any of the guys I mentioned above. Joe Louis being the exception, as I could see him getting inside and finding Wlad chin.

It’s time and evolution. People hold classic fighters in high regard and it’s understandable, they beat who they had in front of them at the time. But does anyone really believe Jesse Owens or Jim Thorpe would beat Usain Bolt or Justin Gatlin in a sprint? Would Oscar Robinson or Bob Cousy start over Russell Westbrook or LeBron James in an NBA game? Even in MMA with the advancements in technology, guys like Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie would get destroyed by Daniel Cormier and Francis Ngannou. A lot of what I mention above is just like boxing, the size differences are a big factor.
 
If you win titles in like 40 pounds worth of divisions, then that personifies the whole purpose of p4p...


If we're talking just straight up most talented? No. He's not enormously talented on a level of Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, etc...we could compile a pretty lengthy list of more talented fighters

But nobody can match some of his achievements....overall his resume is definitely 100% top 10
 
ssx said:
Not at all claiming all pre 70’s contenders were tomato cans, but fact is advancements in training, diet, “supplements”, weight cutting, recovery etc have all grown by leaps and bounds. Thus a lot of guys would be fighting at LHW in today’s game.

I do feel that Holmes, Tyson and Lewis were extra special regarding HW’s. Bowe and Wlad are special but a notch below.

Of the guys I mentioned above, Bowe or Wlad would be considered the weakest by most. Bowe was around 6’5”, quick hands, good chin, great inside fighter and packed lots of power. Wlad was even bigger than Bowe, with more power. Of course his chin is somewhat questionable, but I just can’t see guys who average 5’11” -6’ and weigh between 185-190 beating any of the guys I mentioned above. Joe Louis being the exception, as I could see him getting inside and finding Wlad chin.

It’s time and evolution. People hold classic fighters in high regard and it’s understandable, they beat who they had in front of them at the time. But does anyone really believe Jesse Owens or Jim Thorpe would beat Usain Bolt or Justin Gatlin in a sprint? Would Oscar Robinson or Bob Cousy start over Russell Westbrook or LeBron James in an NBA game? Even in MMA with the advancements in technology, guys like Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie would get destroyed by Daniel Cormier and Francis Ngannou. A lot of what I mention above is just like boxing, the size differences are a big factor.
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Thanks for clarifying

Size and diet are factors, but these discussions usually are done on a pound for pound basis. Speculating of the achievements that someone else could have done against another fighters opponents is problematic. For instance I don't know much about the guys manny was beating at flyweight, even at bantamweight, I could speculate what other fighters could have achieved if they were allowed to turn pro at 16 like manny and were from a part of the world where those world titles are held, we know floyd was 106 pounds at 16, oscar was a bantamweight at that age. If you look at the high class amatuer wins some of them were getting you can speculate about how many other titles they would have won, which would of course make manny's career look less unique.

I would say there is more case for that, than taking wlad and his modern diet and transferring him to the 1930's to face Louis' opponents, with them on their 1930's diet. Louis dominated his era greater than basically anyone dominated theirs. If you talk about the greatest scientists you would include darwin or newton, you wouldn't exclude them for other current scientists, unless these guys made a similiar contemporary impact. Louis in 16 years (upto 1950) at the premier weight class, interupted by the war, had 1 defeat, which he avenged in emphatic style. Pacquaio usually stayed in a weight class 4 yrs and even within those 4 yrs, was never as dominant as Louis was in his 16 yrs! Manny lost twice at flyweight, both unavenged, drew at bantamweight, which he didn't rectify, he drew and lost at featherweight however he did avenge those somewhat ( although he never emphatically beat marquez) and has a few defeats at welter which he hasn;t been able to rectify. That's why I would put him below the very, very best of the best
 
Three things that jump off the page for me
1. He was already a great before he decided too jump up too welterweight. He had a great run 130. The fact that he is a natural 130 and beats top guys at 147 is commendable.
2. His only drawback in my book is i thought JMM beat him all 4 times. First 3 close as hell but i thought jmm won the
3. And i will be that guy and assume Manny has done steroids. Look at his physique in his first fight vs Morales and then see how much different it was less then 2 years later un his 3rd fight with Erik. Night and day.

Manny is far from being the only boxer that has used PED.S. I think floyd has also. Floyd is a natural 135er who bumped up too welter for money.
 
ssx said:
Not at all claiming all pre 70’s contenders were tomato cans, but fact is advancements in training, diet, “supplements”, weight cutting, recovery etc have all grown by leaps and bounds. Thus a lot of guys would be fighting at LHW in today’s game.

I do feel that Holmes, Tyson and Lewis were extra special regarding HW’s. Bowe and Wlad are special but a notch below.

Of the guys I mentioned above, Bowe or Wlad would be considered the weakest by most. Bowe was around 6’5”, quick hands, good chin, great inside fighter and packed lots of power. Wlad was even bigger than Bowe, with more power. Of course his chin is somewhat questionable, but I just can’t see guys who average 5’11” -6’ and weigh between 185-190 beating any of the guys I mentioned above. Joe Louis being the exception, as I could see him getting inside and finding Wlad chin.

It’s time and evolution. People hold classic fighters in high regard and it’s understandable, they beat who they had in front of them at the time. But does anyone really believe Jesse Owens or Jim Thorpe would beat Usain Bolt or Justin Gatlin in a sprint? Would Oscar Robinson or Bob Cousy start over Russell Westbrook or LeBron James in an NBA game? Even in MMA with the advancements in technology, guys like Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie would get destroyed by Daniel Cormier and Francis Ngannou. A lot of what I mention above is just like boxing, the size differences are a big factor.
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i don't agree that boxing has evolved that much (the opposite actually) but i do agree with you about the size of the athletes. i can't really image marciano beating holmes, lewis or wlad.
 
Yes Pacquiao is in the top 10 for All Time rankings.
 
TidWell said:
He is not an 8 division champion, Lineal Ring magazine titles do not count. He never won a legit title at 126 pounds or 140.
Top 10 that is way too high. He wasn't even in the Top 50 on ESPN's boxing list. Now if he unifies the titles at Welterweight he easily makes Top 70 easily.
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That list is dog****, they have Morales ranked higher than tyson and Floyd barely makes it in. How can Morales and Barrera be in the list and not Manny who beat both of them? Yeh says it all.
 
Homervanderjaz said:
That list is dog****, they have Morales ranked higher than tyson and Floyd barely makes it in. How can Morales and Barrera be in the list and not Manny who beat both of them? Yeh says it all.
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Well you have to take it up with the boxing heads at ESPN. The only boxing historian who thought Pacman was special and said he never seen something that special in years was the late Bert Sugar he passed away long before Pac and Floyd fought, but he was always found of those type of come from nothing stories so he had some fondness for Manny and personal attachment.
 
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