Karate blackbelts in MMA

destroyer4147 said:
Definitely unsurprising for Kyokushin to dominate the stats as an individual style, but for ALL knockdown karate styles to collectively add up to only 35%...

That means 65% of MMA karateka were actually pointfighters???
Click to expand...
Here are some updated stats (minus the styles that are only 1%)

STYLE %
Kyokushin 25%
Shotokan 15%
Kenpo 9%
Kempo 7%
Zendokai 6%
Sport 6%
unknown 5%
Goju 4%
Shidokan 4%
Seidokaikan 3%
Kudo 3%
Shito 2%

Knockdown styles are still at approx 34% but the rest aren't all typical WKF point-kumite styles (approx 18%), they're mostly mixed rules - Kenpo, Kempo, Zendokai, Sport styles, Goju* and Kudo (approx 43%). All of these allow head punches so they can't be classified as knockdown.

Cheat sheet:
View media item 32385
*Goju comes in 2 variations: Japanese Goju is WKF point-kumite, Okinawan Goju is usually mixed rules.
 
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Hotora86 said:
Knockdown styles are still at approx 34% but the rest aren't all typical WKF point-kumite styles (approx 18%), they're mostly mixed rules - Kenpo, Kempo, Zendokai, Sport styles, Goju* and Kudo (approx 43%). All of these allow head punches so they can't be classified as knockdown.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't Kenpo, Kempo, and Sport Karate be considered Pointfighting as well? Most Kenpo/Kempo studios (at least in the US) compete primarily, and sometimes exclusively, in NBL style point fighting, you know...foam dipped sparring gear, colorful v-neck sparring uniforms made of jersey material, and "creative forms" in their Kata competitions. What I described above, isn't that pretty much what "sport karate" is understood to be in the modern sense?

So WKF style pointfighting + Kenpo + Kempo + Sport = 18% + 9% + 7% + 6% = 40%!!!!

So 40% of MMA Karateka are pointfighters, which is still greater than the 34% of MMA Karateka who are knockdown fighters
 
destroyer4147 said:
Shouldn't Kenpo, Kempo, and Sport Karate be considered Pointfighting as well? Most Kenpo/Kempo studios (at least in the US) compete primarily, and sometimes exclusively, in NBL style point fighting, you know...foam dipped sparring gear, colorful v-neck sparring uniforms made of jersey material, and "creative forms" in their Kata competitions. What I described above, isn't that pretty much what "sport karate" is understood to be in the modern sense?

So WKF style pointfighting + Kenpo + Kempo + Sport = 18% + 9% + 7% + 6% = 40%!!!!

So 40% of MMA Karateka are pointfighters, which is still greater than the 34% of MMA Karateka who are knockdown fighters
Click to expand...
You may be right. I'm not from the US so I'm not that knowledgeable about Kenpo/Kempo rules - and there are so many different orgs with their own custom rulesets that I just considered them to be "mixed", perhaps erroneously.

If we do lump WKF, sport and US Kenpo/Kempo together as point fighters then I guess you're right - they make up the majority. A WKF guy will move and fight differently from a sport karate guy though. And the US karate scene is just a cornucopia of rulesets to me. :p
 
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zo__uv3hK2Jk4Nh0vrWZt4Zxup-yNixgJ69EnHE9ePLaLjqyQFzT4YSanopuGCXenFk0f6Kzj5u23xwMDB-mIxEkkdLZNVEkdC9fznE5DgR6BF2akRTcdxqE0uDtWagyBKl2wvc
 
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  • Foundation Style: Kudo
  • Rank: 3 Dan
i
 
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  • Born: Natal, Rio Grande do Norte, Brazil
  • Fighting out of: Austria
  • Foundation Style: Shotokan Karate
  • Rank: 1 Dan ? (probably higher but I don't have any data)
aaand new FW KSW champion! :D

 
destroyer4147 said:
Shouldn't Kenpo, Kempo, and Sport Karate be considered Pointfighting as well? Most Kenpo/Kempo studios (at least in the US) compete primarily, and sometimes exclusively, in NBL style point fighting, you know...foam dipped sparring gear, colorful v-neck sparring uniforms made of jersey material, and "creative forms" in their Kata competitions. What I described above, isn't that pretty much what "sport karate" is understood to be in the modern sense?

So WKF style pointfighting + Kenpo + Kempo + Sport = 18% + 9% + 7% + 6% = 40%!!!!

So 40% of MMA Karateka are pointfighters, which is still greater than the 34% of MMA Karateka who are knockdown fighters
Click to expand...

WKF (and all other organizations using basically the same point rules) are very distinct from american foam foot-fencing. I cannot say for the american point karate point of view, but the WKF point of view is that they do not want to be lumped together with the foot fencers.

WKF point karate
This is what the rest of the world regards as point karate

It is all about distancing drawing out attacks, countering, counter-countering and timing. hitting without getting hit. Machida elusiveness


foam foot fencing (american style point karate)
This stuff basically only exist in the US.

I honestly have no clue what this is about except standing on one leg and waving the other in front of you.
(If it seems like I despise this, it is because I do)

As for kempo and kenpo they are such a broad group so that you simply cannot group them together as one for anything. Some do various point karate versions (including the foot fencing above), some do full contact (including knockdown/kyokushin variants), some do other stuff entirely.
You have to look at each individually.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6zYha09gPQ
 
shinkyoku said:
WKF (and all other organizations using basically the same point rules) are very distinct from american foam foot-fencing. I cannot say for the american point karate point of view, but the WKF point of view is that they do not want to be lumped together with the foot fencers.
Click to expand...

Thanks Shinkyoku. That's interesting. What's also interesting is that, despite the fact that WFK guys don't want to be lumped together with foot fencers, they overwhelmingly have NO PROBLEM lumping Machida (WKF...actually JKA...guy) together with guys like Wonderboy and Sage Northcutt (American foot fencers) to emphasize the effectiveness of point fighting in MMA.

I just wanted to emphasize how point fighters as whole, whether they be of the WKF or foot fencing sort, collectively make up a much higher percentage of MMA karateka than do knockdown fighters as a whole.

shinkyoku said:
As for kempo and kenpo they are such a broad group so that you simply cannot group them together as one for anything. Some do various point karate versions (including the foot fencing above), some do full contact (including knockdown/kyokushin variants), some do other stuff entirely.
You have to look at each individually.
Click to expand...

You're right. A great example is Sensei Isaac Hayaat of Kenpokan Academie St Pancrace in France. He's an American Kenpo black belt whose students compete in Knockdown and Shidokan triathlon tournaments, and they do very, very well.

It's just that here in the US, almost all foot fencing tournaments, including the "world famous Long Beach 'Bruce Lee did his one inch punch' International tournament," and all the other foot fencing tournaments in the same circuit or of similar rules, are overwhelmingly filled Kenpo/Kempo competitors. Like 99.999%. I'm exaggerating, of course. It's more like 99.998%

Knockdown tournaments are a rarity here in the US, and most Kenpo/Kempo schools almost exclusively devote training their competition team for foot fencing tournaments.
 
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destroyer4147 said:
most Kenpo/Kempo schools almost exclusively devote training their competition team for foot fencing tournaments.
Click to expand...
I pretend foot fencing do not exist.
If I do it long enough maybe it will go away!

Seriously. While it may be standard in the US for american kenpo/kempo people (I seriously doubt you will find meny okinawan kempo people doing it). Be very aware that that type of point karate is more or less non existent outside of the US.
This list do not differ between american kenpo users and okinawan/japanese/european kenpo/kempo users.
 
shinkyoku said:
I pretend foot fencing do not exist.
If I do it long enough maybe it will go away!

Seriously. While it may be standard in the US for american kenpo/kempo people (I seriously doubt you will find meny okinawan kempo people doing it). Be very aware that that type of point karate is more or less non existent outside of the US.
This list do not differ between american kenpo users and okinawan/japanese/european kenpo/kempo users.
Click to expand...

You're right, that's absolutely true, and it's unfair to lump all international variants of Kenpo/Kempo as pointfighting.

However, even if American foot fencing hardly exists outside of the US, it certainly exists as a base for many US karate fighters who compete in the US based UF of C.

Actually, it might not be too farfetched to say that Wonderboy (foot fencer) has already replaced Machida (WKF/JKA pointfighter) as the face of pointfighting's success in MMA
 
destroyer4147 said:
Actually, it might not be too farfetched to say that Wonderboy (foot fencer) has already replaced Machida (WKF/JKA pointfighter) as the face of pointfighting's success in MMA
Click to expand...

Very possible. But that is in great part due to people not recognizing a basic roundkick or punch as a karate technique. People seem to think that if it is not flamboyant jumping or spinning (and most definitely a kick) it is not karate.
That is one of the reasons for this thread. Pointing out the karate users no one recognize as karate users.

To quote Semmy after one of his K-1 wins (slighly paraphrased as regarding the interviewer as I cannot be bothered to dig it up at the moment):
Interviewer: That was a great muay thai Kneestrike !
Semmy: that was not a MT knee, that was a karate knee!
 
destroyer4147 said:
Actually, it might not be too farfetched to say that Wonderboy (foot fencer) has already replaced Machida (WKF/JKA pointfighter) as the face of pointfighting's success in MMA
Click to expand...
* Machida was never in WKF
just clarifying :)
 
shinkyoku said:
Very possible. But that is in great part due to people not recognizing a basic roundkick or punch as a karate technique. People seem to think that if it is not flamboyant jumping or spinning (and most definitely a kick) it is not karate.
That is one of the reasons for this thread. Pointing out the karate users no one recognize as karate users.

To quote Semmy after one of his K-1 wins (slighly paraphrased as regarding the interviewer as I cannot be bothered to dig it up at the moment):
Interviewer: That was a great muay thai Kneestrike !
Semmy: that was not a MT knee, that was a karate knee!
Click to expand...
I love the way you put it (in bold). :)

Tried to find that Semmy interview, could not but found this one instead: https://boec.com/semmy-schilt-my-style-is-karate/
 
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