Karate in the Olympics?

Except that nobody gets hurt in WKF Karate, unless it's an accident. So what you're saying doesn't apply here.

Some of the principles of Bushido according to Nitobe Inazo are righteousness, respect, honour, and self-control. So it's kind of on topic of what we were discussing here.

Whatever the way we argue about this, one can't deny this looks a much more controlled and respectful reaction after winning:


Than this:


Those values probably meant not killing someone for the fuck of it and being a brutal asshole back in those days. It's kinda like how most religions are supposed to be about peace but because of the time they were made they are still brutal.

I doubt early TMA fighters would that peaceful by modern standards. In the end it's fighting youa re trying to depending on the ruleset either hurt someone or show that you would have been able to hurt someone had it been a real fight it's not (only) a game I don't get how you are respectful in kicking someone's ass other than playing by the rules or at most not doing things like sucker atacks when the opponent greets or keep attacking after you#ve won when you still could
 
Except that nobody gets hurt in WKF Karate, unless it's an accident. So what you're saying doesn't apply here.

Some of the principles of Bushido according to Nitobe Inazo are righteousness, respect, honour, and self-control. So it's kind of on topic of what we were discussing here.

Whatever the way we argue about this, one can't deny this looks a much more controlled and respectful reaction after winning:


Than this:



WKF is more controlled but when you have an avenue of making contact there is always the potential to get hurt or knocked out:



While it is uncommon - it does happen in WKF as well. I feel what I'm saying at least applies to most competition formats with contact in that regard you could include WKF - as I have seen some people get knocked out or dazed. I admit it's a lot less than knockdown for example - but it does still happen.


It's quite hilarious to read Nitobe Inazo talk about Bushido because it's an idealized version of what Bushido is that is out of touch with reality (much like how a lot of karate instructors/students talk about bushido/samurai without having read any history - almost romanticized point of view/fascination of a brutal ethical code). All anyone needs to do is actually put what he saying into historical context to see whether what he's saying is based in reality or not. There is no context of this Bushido he talks about in practice - then again the Japanese of his time had an idealized view of themselves & their traditions. I mean you haven't forgotten Tay that it was Bushido that was a big part of the atrocities that imperial Japan committed in world war 2 - a lot of those who were in government at the time & in the military were ex-samurai. I think a lot of commentators have made criticisms of Inazo's view of Bushido because in all honesty it isn't based in reality - it's romanticism. Just reading a bit of history will show how Inazo was out of touch.

I mean just read up on history especially in the Muromachi period - specifically Sengoku Jidai era to see what bushido was. It was very brutal ethical code that was based on loyalty, action & etiquette (that's about it - hell they didn't even do the loyalty part particularly well). Also it was not uniform among samurai - it varied from samurai to samurai (all of it pretty much brutal) - it does make me smile when it's associated with righteousness & self-control though because most Japanese consider it brutal and the samurai & their code were responsible for a lot of raping, murdering, executing etc etc - as well as a habit of murdering/executing lower class people for being lower class.

http://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/

That does a pretty good job of explaining the misconceptions western audiences have of bushido/samurai.



Tay I'd argue - that knocking someone out in the first clip is very disrespectful. It's even weirder that you would talk about respect after one guy (Artur) has knocked out & given brain damage to another guy - why would respect even matter in that scenario? Even if he celebrates or stays quiet out of "respect" - he's still given the guy brain damage that's as far away from respectful as I can imagine.
 
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Tay I'd argue - that knocking someone out in the first clip is very disrespectful. It's even weirder that you would talk about respect after one guy (Artur) has knocked out & given brain damage to another guy - why would respect even matter in that scenario? Even if he celebrates or stays quiet out of "respect" - he's still given the guy brain damage that's as far away from respectful as I can imagine.

It's not disrespectful to knock someone out if it's part of the rules and both participants are compliant. Otherwise you could also argue that it's disrespectful to win any sport or game against someone.
 
Wouldn't the KO in the WKF clip be judged as excessive force?
 
Glory rules would be cool
 
I read " The Book of Five Rings" because my karate and Judo instructor recommended it. The author who wrote 350 year ago travelled around Japan challenging people to fights and often killing them. when he was a young man. However, once he got old he mellowed out and focused more on mediating and writing philosophy.

The first chapters of the book describe military tactics and also how to fight , but the later ones are more theoretical and religious. It mirrors his life experience.

So budo for a young person means beating people up, but budo for an old person mean thinking and teaching.

Parts of the book are boring though and it is complex, so kids interested in karate in the USA probably won't read it. Its would be like asking them to read Aristotle or Plato. or writing about Buddha
 
It's not disrespectful to knock someone out if it's part of the rules and both participants are compliant. Otherwise you could also argue that it's disrespectful to win any sport or game against someone.

Winning a sport or a game is not really disrespecful since outside of combat sports no-one is getting beaten to a pulp for losing - a sport or game that involves one person getting hurt or getting knocked out or long term health issues caused by another person is. To pretend that there is nothing disrespectful about knocking someone out or causing them long term damage just because both participants are compliant is a lame excuse.

In that case you'd have no issue with two people fighting to the death if both participants are compliant? I never thought of competition that way until I saw the Diaz bros talking about it a while back and now I've come to agree with them. I think there is this false pretense with competition & respect that I don't like - people should be honest and say it how it is.

In a fight you aren't thinking about the well-being of the guy your fighting - whether it is for competitions sake or sport - that is disrespectful regardless of however you want to put it. I think trying to say competition can be respectful or there is a budo spirit involved given your not thinking about the well-being or health of the person opposite while trying to take them out (think about that) is precisely why there is no budo in it at all.

Sparring on the other hand is completely different. You aren't trying to take out the person your sparring with - the objective is to learn - if someone gets hurt you stop to see if there alright.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to compete but I think people should drop the respect & other pretentious bullshit of saying so and so competition format is more or less respectful or trying to act as though there is some martial spirit/budo involved in competition. None of them have any degree of respect involved - since when is there respect involved in how you beat someone up? I mean how do you do that respectfully? The respect that people laud is how you deal with winning - it's normal human behaviour/manners not to celebrate when you knock someone out or hurt them - has nothing to do with respect.

Man I'm going off point lol.
 
I read " The Book of Five Rings" because my karate and Judo instructor recommended it. The author who wrote 350 year ago travelled around Japan challenging people to fights and often killing them. when he was a young man. However, once he got old he mellowed out and focused more on mediating and writing philosophy.

The first chapters of the book describe military tactics and also how to fight , but the later ones are more theoretical and religious. It mirrors his life experience.

So budo for a young person means beating people up, but budo for an old person mean thinking and teaching.

Parts of the book are boring though and it is complex, so kids interested in karate in the USA probably won't read it. Its would be like asking them to read Aristotle or Plato. or writing about Buddha

I think it should be noted that the Book of Five Rings is essentially a wandering killer that tells you how he was successful in killing people and how he fought - as well as providing philosophical discussions about what he's doing. Then reflecting back on his life philosophically as an older man after having been a murderer for a significant portion of it. I mean I don't think if Musashi did that in this day & age and wrote a book about it - that he'd have a cult following for his book among martial artists but for some reason because he is from the 17th century we give him a pass lol.

I'm not going to lie - I was fascinated with Musashi but that said he's a classic example of the fucked up ethics/ethos of his time. There is a reason modern day budo no longer like that and why the samurai's way of life/ethics no longer exists because it is a outdated philosophy/ethics. Why anyone would want to follow or try to make use of those ethics when it brought ruin to the samurai is beyond me lol.

Modern budo is not about beating people up or thinking and teaching. It is about the perfection of the self. That is all.
 
Winning a sport or a game is not really disrespecful since outside of combat sports no-one is getting beaten to a pulp for losing - a sport or game that involves one person getting hurt or getting knocked out or long term health issues caused by another person is. To pretend that there is nothing disrespectful about knocking someone out or causing them long term damage just because both participants are compliant is a lame excuse.

In that case you'd have no issue with two people fighting to the death if both participants are compliant? I never thought of competition that way until I saw the Diaz bros talking about it a while back and now I've come to agree with them. I think there is this false pretense with competition & respect that I don't like - people should be honest and say it how it is.

In a fight you aren't thinking about the well-being of the guy your fighting - whether it is for competitions sake or sport - that is disrespectful regardless of however you want to put it. I think trying to say competition can be respectful or there is a budo spirit involved given your not thinking about the well-being or health of the person opposite while trying to take them out (think about that) is precisely why there is no budo in it at all.

Sparring on the other hand is completely different. You aren't trying to take out the person your sparring with - the objective is to learn - if someone gets hurt you stop to see if there alright.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to compete but I think people should drop the respect & other pretentious bullshit of saying so and so competition format is more or less respectful or trying to act as though there is some martial spirit/budo involved in competition. None of them have any degree of respect involved - since when is there respect involved in how you beat someone up? I mean how do you do that respectfully? The respect that people laud is how you deal with winning - it's normal human behaviour/manners not to celebrate when you knock someone out or hurt them - has nothing to do with respect.

Man I'm going off point lol.

I started doing some private sessions with a friend of mine who fought at UCMMA, and he said "respect the guy after the fight, why should you respect someone that's trying to punch you?"
My sambo coach said to me "when you are fighting you are a lion, and if you are a lion then he must be a rabbit"

Conversely however, my muay thai coach (who I've mentioned before is a Thai) said to respect your opponent in the ring, and that people would laugh at you if you disrespected him and got knocked out.

I'm interested to know what exactly the Diaz bros said, would you be able to link or something like that :D
 
I I mean I don't think if Musashi did that in this day & age and wrote a book about it - that he'd have a cult following for his book among martial artists but for some reason because he is from the 17th century we give him a pass lol.

I'm not going to lie - I was fascinated with Musashi but that said he's a classic example of the fucked up ethics/ethos of his time. There is a reason modern day budo no longer like that and why the samurai's way of life/ethics no longer exists because it is a outdated philosophy/ethics. Why anyone would want to follow or try to make use of those ethics when it brought ruin to the samurai is beyond me lol.

Modern budo is not about beating people up or thinking and teaching. It is about the perfection of the self. That is all.

Actually, it is common for Navy Seals and soldiers in the USA to write books about their experiences in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan and be treated like a hero in the USA.. There is one book, "American Sniper" which was so popular it was made into a big budget move even though the author bragged about killing people with a rifle.


As for philosophy Socrates had a military background as did John Rawls. Both of them are respected for writing about ethics. Rawls credits his time as a soldier for making him more compassionate. the same can be said for people like Howard Zinn and Kurt Vonnegut, both of whom felt responsible for killing lots of people as they flew bombers. They really regretted that and called for disarmament.


A lot of people in judo and BJJ have the same attitude Mushashi talks about to a lesser degree. A submission or a big throw is treated like a symbolic death.
 
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I'm one of those guys that needs to be in a bad mood to fight well... I like having fun in sparring, no matter how hard we go, but if i go with the same mentality on match days, I loose the first round for sure, and most of the times its to late to change the flow of the game. But when I go in with bad intention, I feel mentally prepare, and do better.

That doesn't mean I show it, acting crazy, mad-eyeing people. I've been told that I look bored just before the bell, but inside I am fucking scared, and I use that feeling to be hateful about the situation I am in and specially towards my opponent.

The last week before the fight, I listen to music that makes me mad, depressive, antisocial... I think about bad situations and how physical violence could have resolve them, or at least make me look cool, and it counterbalance the dreams of me been KO in the first exchange. I try to remember the fights I have lost and how that made me feel.

But I am also the guy that wont follow through with the punch when the bell rings, wont play dirty, wont make a scene when feeling that I have been wronged by the judges, and wont even celebrate in front of my opponent or his team.

So, I understand the Diaz brothers not wanting to be friends with someone you gonna fight, but for me, that doesn't mean you have to show it and act disrespectfully...
 
In grappling a lot of times you do worry about your opponent, especially youth wrestling when hard throws are not allowed and neither are submissions

I had to compete against one of my training partners last grappling tournament because we were in the same weight class and its a small bracket. Even if your not competing against your buddy its considered rude to really crank a submission in a local tournament. If you choke someone unconscious you better help revive them otherwise you will look like a total dick. And you always respect the tap. You need to be able to release them when the other guy gives up

I think this is why Judo, BJJ wrestling don't have as much of an existential identity crises like karate does. We can go all out and not give some one brain trauma every time.
 
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Except that nobody gets hurt in WKF Karate, unless it's an accident. So what you're saying doesn't apply here.

Some of the principles of Bushido according to Nitobe Inazo are righteousness, respect, honour, and self-control. So it's kind of on topic of what we were discussing here.

Whatever the way we argue about this, one can't deny this looks a much more controlled and respectful reaction after winning:


Than this:


Point karate looks really fun and these guys look extremely light on their feet and quick.

One of the things I hate about point karate (including shotokan) though is that even if they have punches to the face, most of these punches wouldn't really hurt anyone. Sure, they are fast, but rarely are the puncher's feet planted and the puncher is often half-way in the air and off-balance.

I also dislike the total lack of close-distance fighting.

While there are some exceptions (say like Wonderboy), in most instances the guy with the best close-distance fighting will impose his will.

In any case I think that this type of karate is a good tool to have, as it will certainly give an edge for long-distance fighting.
 
I'm one of those guys that needs to be in a bad mood to fight well... I like having fun in sparring, no matter how hard we go, but if i go with the same mentality on match days, I loose the first round for sure, and most of the times its to late to change the flow of the game. But when I go in with bad intention, I feel mentally prepare, and do better.

That doesn't mean I show it, acting crazy, mad-eyeing people. I've been told that I look bored just before the bell, but inside I am fucking scared, and I use that feeling to be hateful about the situation I am in and specially towards my opponent.

The last week before the fight, I listen to music that makes me mad, depressive, antisocial... I think about bad situations and how physical violence could have resolve them, or at least make me look cool, and it counterbalance the dreams of me been KO in the first exchange. I try to remember the fights I have lost and how that made me feel.

But I am also the guy that wont follow through with the punch when the bell rings, wont play dirty, wont make a scene when feeling that I have been wronged by the judges, and wont even celebrate in front of my opponent or his team.

So, I understand the Diaz brothers not wanting to be friends with someone you gonna fight, but for me, that doesn't mean you have to show it and act disrespectfully...

I like this post.

I also feel like the west has taken the budo thing way too far and out of context, like à la Mr. Myiagi.

Respected warriors of all cultures were often testosterone-filled bullies, murderers and rapists and didn't respect shit.

Not exactly the protect the weak noble heart 3 musketeers type.

That being said, in my personal opinion, I think that there is no place for disrespect, antics and showing off in combat sports. Come to think of it.....maybe I think like that because I was never the best or strongest anywhere I trained ? Maybe getting my ass routinely kicked made me humble.

But what of the people (amateur/pros) that are at the top of their game and can basically beat anyone ? Yeah, maybe that would turn me into an asshole as well. But I suck 4 life, so I'll always remain humble, I guess...
 
Point karate looks really fun and these guys look extremely light on their feet and quick.

One of the things I hate about point karate (including shotokan) though is that even if they have punches to the face, most of these punches wouldn't really hurt anyone. Sure, they are fast, but rarely are the puncher's feet planted and the puncher is often half-way in the air and off-balance.
Here's a few punches (and kicks) that definitely hurt.



This is what point karate used to look like and *should* look like.
Nobody got DQd for clean KOs in those days.
 
Here's a few punches (and kicks) that definitely hurt.



This is what point karate used to look like and *should* look like.
Nobody got DQd for clean KOs in those days.


Yeah that's cool.

But even in shotokan, this is not representative of usual competition formats, is it ?
 
Yeah that's cool.

But even in shotokan, this is not representative of usual competition formats, is it ?
it USED TO BE!
and not only in Japan, the KUGB (UK) had the same format, orgs in Russia, France...
not any more sadly :(
 
I don't think karate would neccessarily get watered down by being Olympic. Boxing medal winners have delivered a pretty steady supply of top professionals. Olympic wrestlers and judoka have been succesful in mma.
 
Winning a sport or a game is not really disrespecful since outside of combat sports no-one is getting beaten to a pulp for losing - a sport or game that involves one person getting hurt or getting knocked out or long term health issues caused by another person is.

Outside of combat sports no-one is getting beaten to a pulp for losing?
How about sports like rugby and american football where you can go full impact against the other team, take them down while at full speed, etc?
Those also are sports where one person can get hurt or knocked out or get long term health issues caused by another person.

To pretend that there is nothing disrespectful about knocking someone out or causing them long term damage just because both participants are compliant is a lame excuse.
In that case you'd have no issue with two people fighting to the death if both participants are compliant? I never thought of competition that way until I saw the Diaz bros talking about it a while back and now I've come to agree with them. I think there is this false pretense with competition & respect that I don't like - people should be honest and say it how it is.

In a fight you aren't thinking about the well-being of the guy your fighting - whether it is for competitions sake or sport - that is disrespectful regardless of however you want to put it. I think trying to say competition can be respectful or there is a budo spirit involved given your not thinking about the well-being or health of the person opposite while trying to take them out (think about that) is precisely why there is no budo in it at all.

Sparring on the other hand is completely different. You aren't trying to take out the person your sparring with - the objective is to learn - if someone gets hurt you stop to see if there alright.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to compete but I think people should drop the respect & other pretentious bullshit of saying so and so competition format is more or less respectful or trying to act as though there is some martial spirit/budo involved in competition. None of them have any degree of respect involved - since when is there respect involved in how you beat someone up? I mean how do you do that respectfully? The respect that people laud is how you deal with winning - it's normal human behaviour/manners not to celebrate when you knock someone out or hurt them - has nothing to do with respect.

Man I'm going off point lol.

Personally I have no problem with 2 compliant adults wanting to fight to the death. We're not far off with MMA to be honest.

There is no false pretense in wanting to compete and respecting your opponent before and after the match/fight. Let's take an example, GSP, do you believe he's pretending to respect his opponents before and after? Do you think he really wants to hurt/kill them?
How else are you supposed to test your fighting skills and spirit unless in a real fight with rules?

It's ironical to say you're not thinking of the well-being of the other guy you're fighting. First of all trying to win a sanctioned fight with rules doesn't mean you want your opponent to get badly injured or killed. Secondly, a large number of people on this planet do not think about the well-being of others, be it in a sport environment, out in the street, at work, wherever. So yeah you could say someone who's competing in a fight is probably not thinking of the well-being of his opponent, just like he probably wouldn't be thinking about the other guy's well-being if they were just strangers walking pass in the streets.

Where being compliant makes a difference is that you are aware of the risks, you know what your opponent is going to try to do to you as you're trying to do exactly the same thing, and most importantly it's your choice to be doing this and being there.

Sparring is actually a worse example as the line between light sparring and a KO happening is quite thin depending on who you're sparring with, and here it was actually not part of the deal to get KO'd.

I've only competed a couple of times in a full contact environment and I had nothing but respect for my opponent. We know the rules, we know what the objective is. I don't have to hate them and I don't particularly want them to be injured or dead. I just want to win by the rules and will show my respect before and after the fight, and also respect during the fight as I will not purposely throw any dirty shots that are against the rules to gain an advantage. For me that's respect.

You say it's normal human behavior not to celebrate after knocking someone out or injuring them, yet the majority of people celebrate after doing so. Maybe it's not so human after all? ;)

In the end I guess it's all a matter of opinion. So I will let you listen to the Diaz brothers about fighting not being about respect (hell they definitely act like it), while imagining that if you ever competed in a full contact environment you would not be respectful to your opponent.
 
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I started doing some private sessions with a friend of mine who fought at UCMMA, and he said "respect the guy after the fight, why should you respect someone that's trying to punch you?"
My sambo coach said to me "when you are fighting you are a lion, and if you are a lion then he must be a rabbit"

Conversely however, my muay thai coach (who I've mentioned before is a Thai) said to respect your opponent in the ring, and that people would laugh at you if you disrespected him and got knocked out.

I'm interested to know what exactly the Diaz bros said, would you be able to link or something like that :D

Yeah people don't give the Diaz brothers credit at least with their thoughts on fighting & martial arts - some of their views are actually quite nuanced and very eye opening. I can't remember where I saw the video - it was a while back. I'll try look for it and pm you the video. It was basically amounting to what your post entails - that respect is important in martial arts but in that there is no honour or respect in fighting & that they find the respect your opponent & sportsmanship stuff as pretentious bull-crap given that the other guy is trying to damage their health & livelihood and has no concern for them.

I use to think respect was important in fighting. But after listening to their thoughts I've kinda grown to agree with them. There is no honour or respect to be had beating, or damaging someone's health or trying to knock them out - whether it is for competition, sports or entertainment purposes. That said of course you should obey the rules - that goes without having to respect your opponent - that's a respect for the rules.

A person who wishes well for you won't want to fight you - in competition, sports or entertainment the underlying factor is the guy fighting opposite don't give a shit about you - aside from winning. There are some competitiors who do care - they unfortunately are a dime in a dozen.

I think your thai instructor might be saying carry yourself with dignity in the ring - which I would agree with. But as for respect save it for after a fight is over like your UCMMA friend said. Better yet don't get into fights though to begin with lol.

I think there is some truth to what some martial artists say that there is no budo in competitions and that it does take away from martial arts in a way but maybe it is a necessary evil.





Actually, it is common for Navy Seals and soldiers in the USA to write books about their experiences in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan and be treated like a hero in the USA.. There is one book, "American Sniper" which was so popular it was made into a big budget move even though the author bragged about killing people with a rifle.

As for philosophy Socrates had a military background as did John Rawls. Both of them are respected for writing about ethics. Rawls credits his time as a soldier for making him more compassionate. the same can be said for people like Howard Zinn and Kurt Vonnegut, both of whom felt responsible for killing lots of people as they flew bombers. They really regretted that and called for disarmament.

A lot of people in judo and BJJ have the same attitude Mushashi talks about to a lesser degree. A submission or a big throw is treated like a symbolic death.

Sure - quite a lot of veterans write books about their experiences. American Sniper is one such book however it was a very US centric thing although the movie reached a world wide audience. Most other veterans or modern day military experts that write books about these topics don't really get the same world wide following that books like Sun Tzu The art of War gets - if you get what I mean.

Most of the popular combat related books are from the past - like Musashi's book of 5 rings, Sun Tzu's Art of War, Hagakure, Niccolo Machiavelli - art of War etc etc - especially among martial artists. Noted that most of the people that write these books are killers for lack of a better word - in some cases straight up murderers.

It's weird that if someone did that in this day & age and wrote a book about there tactics to kill people, strategy & life philisophy, it wouldn't be popular (of course you have one or two that are the exception) but most veterans that write books about their experiences do not get Sun Tzu or Musashi's global following. I'd even argue the book American Sniper wasn't as popular in Europe or elsewhere the way it was in the US.

I mean just read that in bold - you have to kill people & be a killer to grow more compassionate - for real? I don't think the people they killed would agree with there new sense of compassion - it's all abit meh.

I think the case that Musashi attitude is almost always quoted is because of a fascination with the man & his time rather than anything else. If more martial artists picked up a history book and did a little more reading on Musashi & the samurai of his era they'd be utterly repulsed at the things they did. Sure they weren't the only group that did messed up stufff - but they are the only group that for some reason are elevated in the martial arts world especially among traditional styles & a lot of it comes from the fact that many of those that bring up bushido, budo spirit or samurai in martial arts as a means of inspiration or lifestyle simply live in lala land and haven't picked up a history book on the topic.




I don't think karate would neccessarily get watered down by being Olympic. Boxing medal winners have delivered a pretty steady supply of top professionals. Olympic wrestlers and judoka have been succesful in mma.

It turns from a life style and martial arts system into an Olympic sport. To some degree it does get watered down. Boxing, wrestlers and judoka are not great example because all their olympic sports are full contact whereas for some reason Karate has to be semi-contact or it doesn't get in.
 
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