Keenan Cornelius: "Rickson Gracie...tough purple belt"

;)
Funny idea, Jigoro Kano was high level specialist in Japanesse Traditional Jujutsu, Art, that contained n * more techniques than modern Judo created by him. Kano also was for long years deeply interested in history of Japanesse combat techniques and their applications + oldest written sources reading, archieves, libraries etc.
I get all that . But being he couldn’t implement all or most of those fancy techniques on a “ modern “ high level sporting practioner would make him purple belt level or the equivalent in Judo , according to Keenan . And “ yes “ I do find it ironic though the original Judo curriculum contains more techniques than Olympic Judo does now
 
I also enjoy judging people from different time periods and contexts by current standards. How could that possibly lead to conflict??

Exactly.

An old school black belt is not directly comparable to a modern black belt. But neither is an old school black belt directly comparable to a modern purple belt.
 
I get all that . But being he couldn’t implement all or most of those fancy techniques on a “ modern “ high level sporting practioner would make him purple belt level or the equivalent in Judo , according to Keenan . And “ yes “ I do find it ironic though the original Judo curriculum contains more techniques than Olympic Judo does now
Japanesse Traditional Jujutsu ( that Kano knew ) ; xxxx techniques.
Judo under Kano ; , xxx techniques.
Modern Sports Judo under rules ; lesser techniques.

I don't think, that many techniques that are in Japanesse Traditional Jujutsu are fancy, more likely simple and brutal.
 
Japanesse Traditional Jujutsu ( that Kano knew ) ; xxxx techniques.
Judo under Kano ; , xxx techniques.
Modern Sports Judo under rules ; lesser techniques.

I don't think, that many techniques that are in Japanesse Traditional Jujutsu are fancy, more likely simple and brutal.
Got it .
 
I think it’s Disrespectful to make comments like that . Thats like saying Jigoro Kano is green belt level compared to Olympic level judokas. I like what Tom Deblass said .” There’s always gonna be some body better . Stronger . Better technique . I have purple belt competitors who could beat some rec black belts . Doesn’t mean the black belt isn’t a black belt .” Listen EVERYONE ..IF you train long enough ...you will not be able to beat all lower belts all the time. You will get old . Weaker . They’ll be more evolved on their techniques . More knowledge of “ meta “ competition techniques perhaps . Faster . Younger . More time to train . Let’s say you’re a black belt . When you get tapped by a blue belt should you give up your belt like Enson did for awhile ?! Of course not . You earned it . If that’s the case we will all be demoted eventually if we train long enough forever . I like Keenan but he’s off base here . The idea that the “ master “ can beat everyone forever is a martial arts myth anyway and I think that kinda gets to the heart of what Keenan’s saying in some ways . Tapping someone doesn’t mean you’re their rank and knowing more sport techniques doesn’t devalue their belt imo .

That's a lot of differences here. For one Kano is dead and can't defend himself which is not true of Rickson. For two, Rickson talks endless shit about everybody else and is nothing like deBlass's recreational black belt minding his or her own business. Third, Enson is about theleast relevant example here. Nobody talks shit about Enson because Enson doesn't trash others. Rickson has it coming far more than those hypothetical examples DeBlass gives.

Lastly DeBlass acknowledges what people here say - Rickson will not know techniques and could lose because if it. There's nothing wrong with that.

What is crazy is people insisting Rickson would never lose to the new guys. Even crazier is diverting the subject to Rickson and MMA. This is Bruce Lee level worship for BJJ.
 
I'm not getting into it re Rickson. But for reference, here's what a BB looked like in 1997, a good black belt for the time, apparently. I'd say a lot of purples these days move better.


EDIT: My point is that CONAN'S BJJ was BB at the time but not so great now. He has no defense once sak passes.



I heard the story that Conan got on the plane from Brazil to Florida a blue belt and got off the plane a black belt (feel free to fact check I’m not trying to shit talk). I don’t think he was a top level black belt in 1997. He got hip bumped by a kick boxer (Maurice smith) in 1996. I am not saying he had no bjj skill but I can think of a ton of bjj guys from that day that moved better. Mario Sperry, Bustamante, etc.
 
That's a lot of differences here. For one Kano is dead and can't defend himself which is not true of Rickson. For two, Rickson talks endless shit about everybody else and is nothing like deBlass's recreational black belt minding his or her own business. Third, Enson is about theleast relevant example here. Nobody talks shit about Enson because Enson doesn't trash others. Rickson has it coming far more than those hypothetical examples DeBlass gives.

Lastly DeBlass acknowledges what people here say - Rickson will not know techniques and could lose because if it. There's nothing wrong with that.

What is crazy is people insisting Rickson would never lose to the new guys. Even crazier is diverting the subject to Rickson and MMA. This is Bruce Lee level worship for BJJ.
Rickson talking shit doesn’t give Keenan a pass to judge him purple belt level now or when he was in his prime imo . It’s good for Keenan for promoting his stuff but makes him look like an asshole kinda. Someone taking shit doesn’t mean what Keenan is saying isn’t dickish too bud . Enson demoting himself is relevant here cause he got thrashed by a blue belt and even said the game had evolved, which it has. His instructor talked to him and he now wears his Black belt. Keenan’s not only implying that Rickson in his day would be a good Purple belt, ability wise he’s implying that his knowledge base is purple belt, just because he can’t berimbolo now or then or other “ meta “ stuff . That is bullshit imo . I guarantee that Rickson could teach a million things to Keenan , little details , just as Keenan could show Rickson a trick or two. Would a good competition purple teach Keenan a million things ? Maybe some cool tricks here and there ., but that’s bout it prob . .we can agree to disagree .
 
I think this is on point

https://40pluscustomer.40plusbjj.co...71d4ddbd682fd680f8914173f9191b1c0223e68310bb1

Fundamentals, Paradigms, & Presuppositions: The Case of Rickson Gracie
Written by Stephen Whittier on August 20, 2019

rickson-mount.jpg

In a recent article, one of the best black belt competitors in the world, Keenan Cornelius, took another shot at the "old school." He was quoted as saying:
"BJJ is kinda like that (Turkmenistan- an autocratic country ruled by an egomaniac dictator). If you say anything about Helio or Rickson, like if you say that their Jiu-Jitsu wasn’t good. People will be like “are you kidding me? Rickson is the greatest black belt of all time”.

I get that you have to show respect to pioneers who came before you but their Jiu-Jitsu was definitely not as good as it is today. Their level was probably tough purple belt level…"

It's a common sentiment, essentially saying: "There's no denying that the level athletes of the current era is greater than the level of the older eras, so let's give credit where it's due but move past the hero worship and get real."

There's a lot of truth to that, but sometimes this argument leads to missing the forest for the trees. I'm here to talk about that.

I’ve spoken and written about this before, but I’m always fascinated by the direct correlation in Jiu-Jitsu between technical innovation and technical presuppositions.

If we imagine Jiu-Jitsu as an ever-evolving system of branches and nodes, it’s easy to see how the technical development moves at such a rapid pace, especially in the area of competitive BJJ….
All the branches originate from the fundamental movements and applications, then through the adaptive process of live training defenses and counter-offenses are developed, then new offenses are developed and tested in response to those, and so on.

Every new node – every new guard or passing “style,” every new sweep strategy, and every attacking system we see get traction in the Jiu-Jitsu world – begins as a branch, a response to certain previous adaptations that were made to counteract the previous node(s).

There are countless examples…

In vale tudo / mixed martial arts, the overhook game from closed guard developed because double underhooks were being easily countered by wrestlers from inside the closed guard. Those wrestlers in turn developed a whole style of "ground & pound" from inside the guard that was not predicated on trying to pass.

In sport Jiu-Jitsu, modern guards like half guard, spider guard, lasso, de la Riva, inverted guard, and 50/50 all evolved into entire guard retention and attacking systems in themselves, as answers to counters and passing styles that were developed to defeat classic guards.

And on a micro level, we see certain techniques like the berimbolo sweep or the kimura trap become a staple part of competitive attacking strategies for a number of years.

The beauty of Jiu-Jitsu is that it’s empirical. Every theory is tested for validity and repeatability according to the scientific method. But as we see all the time in science, scientists must constantly be asking themselves: what unrecognized biases and presuppositions are making their way into our methods for testing? An important question, because these biases and presuppositions can always skew the results.

Sometimes an entire system takes place and is proven to function perfectly well, only to give way to a paradigm shift in another direction. Why? Because the old paradigm was revealed to be based on an incomplete and/or faulty set of assumptions.

Again, it’s not that the old paradigm didn’t “work.” In fact, in BJJ there’s so much emphasis placed on what’s working today within the technical paradigms of high level competition, it’s easy to overlook the assumptions in which those paradigms are rooted… after all, one would have to wade through so many branches and nodes extending back decades in order to get a sense of this.

And for me, this is where Rickson enters the equation. The fact that he was the Gracie family champion and this legendary Jiu-Jitsu fighter almost problematizes what I believe should be his most significant legacy: the greatest Jiu-Jitsu innovator of all time.

There are real, material reasons that you keep hearing that Rickson’s Jiu-Jitsu (whether by training with him or from one of his senior students) “feels different” than everyone else’s Jiu-Jitsu. That’s the contribution to the art he refers to as connection – the key ingredient of “invisible Jiu-Jitsu.”
Of course, it’s also the reason that even in his 40s, training only with his own students (very few of whom were even black belts), he was able to easily defeat many of the great sport Jiu-Jitsu champions at the time that we’ve heard about (Ribiero, Gurgel, Traven, etc).… all of whom were training essentially as professional athletes in laboratories with other elite black belts with the goal of winning world championships.

Were those men and all the other Gracies and Machados who have rolled with him, and who are all legends today in their own right, the equivalent of tough purple belts by today’s competitive standards? No, but that’s a good game to play because it’s hard to prove that apples-to-apples.

Instead of focusing on the man himself and whether he was the G.O.A.T. (which I do believe), I prefer to focus on what he meant when he said that he wanted to make sure that Jiu-Jitsu could work optimally even for people who weren’t fighters like him. He explained that there’s a lot of great Jiu-Jitsu out there that works well at the highest levels, but is still rooted in “partial connections.” So what he did was go through all the positions in Jiu-Jitsu and work out the “full connections.”

My response to criticisms about Rickson from top competitors in the current era would be to separate that statement from the individual and understand what that means….

Rickson’s Jiu-Jitsu feels different and achieves that optimal effectiveness-efficiency balance because of the connection he was able to identify, implement in real time, and teach others how to implement in real time.

I believe this was our greatest but least understood paradigm shift in Jiu-Jitsu to date not because he was “really good at the basics,” but because his invisible Jiu-Jitsu revealed all of the incorrect presuppositions upon which every branch and node that have extended off the fundamentals of the art have been based.

Such as:
• “You can’t break open the guard from knees against high level opponents, you have to stand.”
• “You should always have three points of contact when playing open guard.”
• “You must have a diagonal control of your opponent’s torso with your arms to prevent them from escaping the back position.”
• “Grips are the most important factor in passing the guard at a high level.”
• And endless other examples.

In other words, the fundamental techniques Rickson would use to control and finish the best of the best with were not the fundamentals everyone else (thought they) knew. Beneath the surface layer of those techniques was an ocean of depth they didn’t see, so they developed innovations of their own based on that incomplete knowledge.

Of course, Rickson isn’t the even the only example of these higher principles at work. We have a similar phenomenon in recent times with Roger Gracie, who makes an easy claim to greatest sport Jiu-Jitsu competitor of all time:
• A very “fundamental” game, yet in his last Mundials finished all 10 opponents in his weight and the absolute with mounted collar chokes.
• Trains primarily with his own students.
• Able to adapt his game to nullify a multitude of styles.
• Virtually invincible submission defense.
• After many years layoff from competition, was able to completely shut down and quickly submit arguably the greatest heavyweight competitor of the modern era the moment the match hit the mat.

But it’s interesting to see how many of the same critics seem to read right past the real reasons for Roger’s success as well.

For my part, I’m interested in all of Jiu-Jitsu, but far less in the branches and nodes, the developments in the game that trend for a while but don’t hold up over time as across broad populations of practitioners.

As long as people equate competitive Jiu-Jitsu of certain era with the highest level of Jiu-Jitsu, this will be an ongoing “debate” – but a debate based on certain false premises.

As a coach, my job is to be the smartest scientist…. not by inventing a new style, but by identifying where the Jiu-Jitsu I know, however “proven” or mechanically effective, could be limited by certain presuppositions. It’s about constantly striving to achieve that optimum balance of effective and efficient, and that path always moves in the direction simplicity, of deeper understanding of the fundamentals of human movement, rather than complexity.
 
WRONG. Keenan quit High School to pursue Jiu Jitsu full time.
You should read more of his threads on Reddit. He's said before he never did well in school. Lol @ 15 year old white belt who hasn't won any events dropping out of school to pursue a BJJ career. That sounds ridiculous. Don't kid yourself, bro. There are thousands of dropout losers just like Keenan who live with their parents and never do anything with their lives. Lucky for Keenan, it turned out he had some talent and it went well for him. He may have "accepted a life of poverty" or whatever he says is required to be a pro bjj guy, but at least he's famous on internet forums.
He got his GED, scored well on the SATs and was accepted into college.
How do you know he did well on the SAT? It's possible, but I've never seen him mention it. I'm pretty sure he went to Hawaii Community College in Hilo, which will accept anyone with a pulse.

Just because you don't like school and leave doesn't mean you're a dummy.
That's true, but that may not be the case with Keenan. I think Keenan had some trouble in school.
 
keenan has clear the air already, but I think he kind of meant what he said, I dont agree...

its quite simple, yeah the new lapel stuff will give problems to any old timer whos been out of the game, its tricky, but that doesnt mean with a month or so of training they wont be able to catch up, tricky shit works, only till the other person lears the tricks, then the best at jiu jitsu normally wins, and jiu jitsu sint just about tricky shit, its much deeper, and I will say someone like rickson has quite a deep knowledge.

Fabrio gurgel is on tape saying that jiu jitsu now is better than ever, probably, because of comeptition, competitors of this age are probably better than competitors from 20 or 30 years ago, when it was totally unprofessional, the level of dedication athletes of today have is just something else. The talent pool is also way bigger, so better atheltes can perferm better at differnt things than lesser athletes, no shit. It doesnt mean marcelo garcia isnt going to run over 99% of the guys competing today if you bring marcelo from 10 years ago right to this time, he would, becasue he is a freak, the average is higher, freaks athletes though arent average, and rickson isnt just an average guy from his time.
 
He responds to the uproar here:



Cliffs:
-His podcast is meant as light-hearted discussion and entertainment
-He didn't mean to offend anyone
-He's talking about pure sport BJJ today, not MMA
-Take it with a grain of salt, he was just trying to have an open discussion
 
If rickson is shitting on modern jiu jitsu to sell his shit seminars (that's my actual opinion on watching them on youtube, I would rather spend the time doing stance and motion wrestling drills then go to them for free) why should they give him any respect?
I get what you are saying.
But why lower yourself to such practices?
There is plenty to go around and you can please your own market without having to be little someone else.
 
As much as I have come to think that Rickson has a lot to offer (from my exposure to the SBG though process), he should have fought Sakuraba.
 
Having old style games does not mean he will loose to purple belts.
Now you can argue that if you magically dropped a young rickson gracie and he got berimboloed, he moght get his back taken... that is true, however it does not mean he wont escape from that position.

Most modern bjj is about sweeps more than anything. So yes rickson may get swept by a sweep he never saw in his life. Most likely a purple belt wont be able to tap rickson from the back. He will most likely escape, crush in half guard, crush into mount, and choke/armbar.
 
He responds to the uproar here:



Cliffs:
-His podcast is meant as light-hearted discussion and entertainment
-He didn't mean to offend anyone
-He's talking about pure sport BJJ today, not MMA
-Take it with a grain of salt, he was just trying to have an open discussion

pretty reasonable. Just look at how Eddie Bravo dominated Royler the second time in nogi.
 
Looks he performs well = ~ 116 k subscribers for his channel.
 
I've heard plenty of BBs talk with great reverence about Ricksons game, usually from first hand experience, so keenan may be off the mark there.

Rickson was working on his mythical abilities since being a young fighter. He was always full of deception and lies to reach his goal. Which he partly has. Even Helio criticized him for it. HIs own father! His straight up fabricated fight record, his refusal to accept any competent opponents not only in MMA but in BJJ when he was still young. There are A LOT of BJJers much better than Rickson from 80s/90s. Fabio Gurgel f.e. has much better credentials but also losses because he faced legit opponents in BJJ/MMA .

His closed doors "handling" of world class fighters without any footage.

Rickson fought the bums of the bums in Japan. Not his fault at the beginning. Not at all. But as soon as he got offered opponents with skills he backed out like a little shit.

When he challenged Schultz to a match back then he forbid Schultz every possible way of attacking. No slam, nothing! He was only allowed to hold him. It was comical. And then the great Rickson would prevail after Schultz handling him with ease until gassing.

In one aspect Rickson is GOAT!: Shit talking. He talked shit about Fedor how he would handle him,while not even willing to face anyone remotely dangerous at MW. He talked shit about a lot of BJJ and other MMA fighters while hiding at home.

Royce & Royler always had way more balls than Rickson. Rickson was always the biggest pussy in the Gracie Clan.
 
BJJ is still a fringe sport, so who cares?

Oh and PEDs.
 
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