Keenan Cornelius: "Rickson Gracie...tough purple belt"

[dimmyfinster]

I get what you are saying.
But why lower yourself to such practices?
There is plenty to go around and you can please your own market without having to be little someone else.

That's reasonable enough, but that sentiment should apply to Rickson Gracie too.

You can't go and say Keenan is a jerk for saying all this stuff and turn around and give Rickson a pass for doing pretty much the same thing for a much longer time

Me personally I'm fine with both. That's how critical thinking and discussion happen. I could also see how a person could think it's unbecoming or whatever and that's reasonable too.

Now you can argue that if you magically dropped a young rickson gracie and he got berimboloed, he moght get his back taken...
Most modern bjj is about sweeps more than anything. So yes rickson may get swept by a sweep he never saw in his life. .

Modern BJJ is more than the berimbolo and the lapel. I think that take really sells modern BJJ short. It's the entire DDS leg game too, depending on rule set, and I don't think HH were banned back then.

It's also (relative to Rickson) the entire game of Marcelo. We all take that stuff for granted now but as common techniques the Marcelo game is less than 20 years old, and Rickson prime was 30-40 years ago.

Around the time Marcelo was winning, a BB I know asked Rickson how he passes the x guard. Rickson replied "how you going to get me in the X guard? Try to get me in the X guard".

A Rickson worshipper might think this is some inspired response. To me it's not a real one. Any ADCC or IBJJF champion would give you a real answer today.

I think more likely is that Rickson has his way but didn't want to get caught with a bad answer in case BJJ evolved enough to come up with a better answer. Rickson is not some unstoppable BJJ god born with all knowledge of grappling past, present, and future.

 

[ChickenBrother]

pretty reasonable. Just look at how Eddie Bravo dominated Royler the second time in nogi.

Yeah I think he sounds on point, and you can't really argue with what he's saying here. Another thing that complicates his original statement is how subjective belt ranks are. I don't know how it was in the 80's during Rickson's prime but these days, a world champion purple can probably beat nearly every brown or black who doesn't compete at worlds, and possibly even some of those guys.

 

[dmwalking]

I don't think it's that big a deal. It's like saying the race cars today are faster than 20 years ago. Or that pro NBA players are more athletic now than 20 years ago. It's true. It's not a bad thing. And I don't believe it diminishes the accomplishments of the old greats.

This is not a religion. Rickson and Helio are not sacred. It's ok to be objective.

 

[Machote]

Off course Keenan, the sport evolves and the practitioners evolves with it. What's the point in comparing him to today standards? He was the best in his time, that's what matters.
In 40 years bjj black belts will talk about Keenan the same way comparing him to tough blue belts and talking about how people could fall for those simple lapel stuff.
I agreed tough that the legend, almost god-like status Rickson has is a bit too much.

 

[yetanother]

You should read more of his threads on Reddit. He's said before he never did well in school. Lol @ 15 year old white belt who hasn't won any events dropping out of school to pursue a BJJ career. That sounds ridiculous. Don't kid yourself, bro. There are thousands of dropout losers just like Keenan who live with their parents and never do anything with their lives. Lucky for Keenan, it turned out he had some talent and it went well for him. He may have "accepted a life of poverty" or whatever he says is required to be a pro bjj guy, but at least he's famous on internet forums.

How do you know he did well on the SAT? It's possible, but I've never seen him mention it. I'm pretty sure he went to Hawaii Community College in Hilo, which will accept anyone with a pulse.


That's true, but that may not be the case with Keenan. I think Keenan had some trouble in school.

Yes, dropping school at white isn't a smart choice but it worked out super well for hem.
Why pick on people who made risky and not very thought thru choices when they work out for them?
He seems to be decently financially successful now (he has a cult following in a sport trained in the USA in large part by people with money to spend on it) and has actually made his mark on BJJ with stuff he invented.
It's a bit like making fun of someone falling in love with a super model he saw on TV for being unrealistic and not having a chance after he is already married with her with kids.
He is opening up a gigantic BJJ gym and it will be interesting how that pans out.

 

[Lubaolong]

You think he’s reading this thread and crying? I’m not picking on anyone. I was just giving an example of another silly thing he said.

If he’s doing well now, good for him. I know Ive heard him mention a few times how pro bjj was committing to a life of poverty. Maybe he’s making a lot from his website.

 

[yetanother]

You think he’s reading this thread and crying? I’m not picking on anyone. I was just giving an example of another silly thing he said.

If he’s doing well now, good for him. I know Ive heard him mention a few times how pro bjj was committing to a life of poverty. Maybe he’s making a lot from his website.

I doubt he cares, just seemed silly to focus on dubious choices that paid of big time.
I think he was referring to how a lot of other people end up. He seems to be doing fairly well (like buying a tesla with money from his first dvd) and he promotes himself super hard.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Rickson was working on his mythical abilities since being a young fighter. He was always full of deception and lies to reach his goal. Which he partly has. Even Helio criticized him for it. HIs own father! His straight up fabricated fight record, his refusal to accept any competent opponents not only in MMA but in BJJ when he was still young. There are A LOT of BJJers much better than Rickson from 80s/90s. Fabio Gurgel f.e. has much better credentials but also losses because he faced legit opponents in BJJ/MMA .

His closed doors "handling" of world class fighters without any footage.

Rickson fought the bums of the bums in Japan. Not his fault at the beginning. Not at all. But as soon as he got offered opponents with skills he backed out like a little shit.

When he challenged Schultz to a match back then he forbid Schultz every possible way of attacking. No slam, nothing! He was only allowed to hold him. It was comical. And then the great Rickson would prevail after Schultz handling him with ease until gassing.

In one aspect Rickson is GOAT!: Shit talking. He talked shit about Fedor how he would handle him,while not even willing to face anyone remotely dangerous at MW. He talked shit about a lot of BJJ and other MMA fighters while hiding at home.

Royce & Royler always had way more balls than Rickson. Rickson was always the biggest pussy in the Gracie Clan.

rickson fought the first 2 vale tudo tournaments, where gracies had no interfiere on who was selected or not. He also fought funaki, hardly a bum. Saku called him out, his son had just passed the way, do you have any idea on how hard that could be for a human being?

Shultz certanly didnt agree with you, other ways, why on fucking earth wouldve he gone to train with him? if I ever get to roll with someone and I feel I could somehow beat him with ease if the rules werent made up, I certanly wouldnt spend a single day of my life training under him, yet shultz did it. So he must have felt something dont you think?

Also, gurgel had 1 mma fight, 1. He faced keer and did quite well considering who mark was, but you can hardly said he achieved more or was a better mma fighter based on a loss. By the way, I also think mark wouldve beaten rickson.

 

[Bubblun]

I think I am familiar with Keenan vocabulary.

When he says "tough" or "good", he means "world class".
To him tournaments like EBI didn't have anybody "good" in it, because there weren't any brazilians competing, for the most part.
In a tournament like the last Kinektic event, pretty much everybody "sucked" except the BJJ Fanatics team.

So yes, Rickson was at the level of a purple belt who competes at the adult Worlds.

 

[yetanother]

r
Shultz certanly didnt agree with you, other ways, why on fucking earth wouldve he gone to train with him? if I ever get to roll with someone and I feel I could somehow beat him with ease if the rules werent made up, I certanly wouldnt spend a single day of my life training under him, yet shultz did it. So he must have felt something dont you think?

Shultz wanted to grapple Rickson too because he was afraid that he would kill Rickson in a full on fight (and was pressure by his friend into going to the challange). Shultz out grappled Rickson for a while and got tapped because when he got tired because he had no subs to finish the grapple. He was impressed by the subs.

 

[miscend]

BJJers know MORE techniques but the old schoolers had more DEPTH to their techniques. Rickson has way better BJJ than the best purples. Nowadays there is more specialization than there was in the past. This leads to huge holes in people's BJJ. Rickson might not be as current on the latest techniques,but he has way more depth to the other 1,0020383746454 aspects about BJJ (Base,Pressure,Leverage, Frames, etc etc). Kron seemingly doesn't train with anyone known for new school cutting edge BJJ but seems to be doing well. The more I learn about BJJ,the more I realize that the basics of BJJ is so important. Even if you don't see it translate into the rolls right away, your understanding of the basics will give you a foundation to adapt to almost anything.

Has Akron won ADCC or been a BJJ world champion?

 

[yetanother]

Has Akron won ADCC or been a BJJ world champion?

Kron won ADCC by being super good at subs. Rickson might have helped as he was clowning Otavio Sousa in the finals (who took a shot and got guillotined)

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Shultz wanted to grapple Rickson too because he was afraid that he would kill Rickson in a full on fight (and was pressure by his friend into going to the challange). Shultz out grappled Rickson for a while and got tapped because when he got tired because he had no subs to finish the grapple. He was impressed by the subs.

Outgrapple? You mean having top position and cradle him? What did you expect? Ricksha was going to outwrestle Shultz? You think there’s a single bjj player even from these days that would get in there take shultz down and get on top?

 

[rmongler]

Schultz had better fundamentals and positional control than Rickson.

Rickson used a submission before position strategy which doesn't pass the Helio Filter.

 

[miscend]

I think this is on point

https://40pluscustomer.40plusbjj.co...71d4ddbd682fd680f8914173f9191b1c0223e68310bb1

None of Rogers students are as successful as him using the basics against modern players in competition. Honestly much of Rogers success was just sheer talent, he’s a tall athletic guy with super long limbs, his build was just tailored for his advanced basics game. I don’t think his movements are as fluid and smooth as Buchecha who moves around like a middle weight on the mat.

 

[yetanother]

Outgrapple? You mean having top position and cradle him? What did you expect? Ricksha was going to outwrestle Shultz? You think there’s a single bjj player even from these days that would get in there take shultz down and get on top?

Does Kyle Snyder count as a bjj player (in an interview he mentioned he trains BJJ once per week as a hobby/preparation for mma/active recovery)?
Cradling someone is a guard pass. No pure wrestler is passing guard of elite BJJers nowhere near their weight.
It's like a Rafa Mendes taking down a supposed wrestling goat, riding him for 20 minutes not being able to pin him and getting pinned in return.

 

[Gandhi]

None of Rogers students are as successful as him using the basics against modern players in competition. Honestly much of Rogers success was just sheer talent, he’s a tall athletic guy with super long limbs, his build was just tailored for his advanced basics game. I don’t think his movements are as fluid and smooth as Buchecha who moves around like a middle weight on the mat.

Yeah I don't think basics beat advanced game most of the time at the world level. But I think the overall point still holds. Rickson's application and development of the basic game is what his real legacy is. Also a proper understanding / mastery of the root of the sport rather than all the outward branches will allow you to beat most BJJ players. Not the world champs mind you. But it would certainly put Rickson > tough purple imo.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

"....BJJ is kinda like that (Turkmenistan- an autocratic country ruled by an egomaniac dictator). If you say anything about Helio or Rickson, like if you say that their Jiu-Jitsu wasn’t good. People will be like “are you kidding me? Rickson is the greatest black belt of all time”.

I get that you have to show respect to pioneers who came before you but their Jiu-Jitsu was definitely not as good as it is today. Their level was probably tough purple belt level…"

https://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/keen...e-their-level-was-probably-tough-purple-belt/

Could be, they were busy developing the techniques that today's techniques are based on. Put it this way, Isaac Newton wouldn't pass most of today's undergraduate physics classes with what he knew two hundred years ago (electromagnetism, quantum mechanics, relativity, statistical physics for example hadn't been discovered in his day) -- and yet he's considered to be along with Einstein the greatest physicist ever by just about every physicist in the world.

Same for calculus -- Newton and Leibniz invented it, but neither would pass most undergrad calculus tests today, we've built on their work. Yet for some reason every math expert thinks Newton and Leibniz were among the greatest mathematicians ever.

I'm guessing that current BJJ technique is based a lot more on what Rickson developed than what Keenan developed. And developing new techniques is the most important element of a black belt.

 

[Normot]

Does Kyle Snyder count as a bjj player (in an interview he mentioned he trains BJJ once per week as a hobby/preparation for mma/active recovery)?
Cradling someone is a guard pass. No pure wrestler is passing guard of elite BJJers nowhere near their weight.
It's like a Rafa Mendes taking down a supposed wrestling goat, riding him for 20 minutes not being able to pin him and getting pinned in return.

I don't care what point you are trying to make but that first sentence has me rock hard.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Does Kyle Snyder count as a bjj player (in an interview he mentioned he trains BJJ once per week as a hobby/preparation for mma/active recovery)?
Cradling someone is a guard pass. No pure wrestler is passing guard of elite BJJers nowhere near their weight.
It's like a Rafa Mendes taking down a supposed wrestling goat, riding him for 20 minutes not being able to pin him and getting pinned in return.

cradling is not a guard pass, you need to let go the cradle to complete the pass.

no snyder is not a bjj player, hes a wrestler dont play smart ass.