maia believes sigle leg is the best takedown for mma

[tekkenfan]

In no gi hane goshi from over under tie up works well for me for some reason, and I've seen others hit uchi mata from same position. But I agree chaining ankle pick after they hip in to defend uchi mata is a great counter to their counter.

tbh im not that deep with judo i only know about 15 throws hane goshi looks like a mix of uchi and harai goshi?

 

[ChickenBrother]

tbh im not that deep with judo i only know about 15 throws hane goshi looks like a mix of uchi and harai goshi?

Hane is reaping inside of far leg:


I do it with more of a bent leg and for me I can generate far more lift and elevation like that than I can with uchi or harai. There are Judo savants on this forum like @efficientjudo whose vid I posted, so I'm open to being corrected. But the four throws I mentioned are part of the same "family." Uki goshi looks like O goshi to casuals but you're spiking your hip into them. Uchi is basically uki but reaping inside of near leg. Harai is reaping outside of far leg. Hane is reaping inside of far leg but in all 4 throws the lift comes from hip mechanics and the reap is only incidental.

 

[tekkenfan]

Hane is reaping inside of far leg:


I do it with more of a bent leg and for me I can generate far more lift and elevation like that than I can with uchi or harai. There are Judo savants on this forum like @efficientjudo whose vid I posted, so I'm open to being corrected. But the four throws I mentioned are part of the same "family." Uki goshi looks like O goshi to casuals but you're spiking your hip into them. Uchi is basically uki but reaping inside of near leg. Harai is reaping outside of far leg. Hane is reaping inside of far leg but in all 4 throws the lift comes from hip mechanics and the reap is only incidental.

isnt that the same as uchi mata reaping inside leg? or is it done with a different grip? i know uchi mata been doing it for 15 years harai goshi o uchi gari osoto gari basic hip throw forgot the name those are the only throws id say im proficient at

 

[ChickenBrother]

isnt that the same as uchi mata reaping inside leg? or is it done with a different grip? i know uchi mata been doing it for 15 years harai goshi o uchi gari osoto gari basic hip throw forgot the name those are the only throws id say im proficient at

Grips are the same. The hip penetration step is also same as for uchi mata but you're a few inches further in to be able to reap inside of far leg. The throw hip mechanics are slightly different from uchi mata as you can see at 0:35 in the video above, where tori is lifting his bent leg out kind of sideways instead of straight back as you would in uchi mata.

Uchi mata and hane goshi (and uki goshi) are different from O goshi (basic hip throw you're thinking of) in that you're "spiking" uke with your hip (rather than planting your butt crack on their quad as you do in O goshi). If a high level Judo BB explodes into one of these throws, the hip penetration feels like getting punched in the gut and will launch you into the air if they maintain upper body control and hike you up onto their hip before turning to complete the throw (harder to do no gi).

Uchi, hane, harai and uki are highly technical. If you've been doing uchi mata for 15 years I'm sure you have a good grasp of the mechanics, but honestly in the last 20 years of cross-training off and on with BJJ guys, I've yet to see a pure BJJ guy with Judo BB level uchi mata unless they very heavily cross-trained Judo.

Back in the 90's I feel like a lot of BJJ BB's were also Judo BB's or had equivalent skill level in gi TD's. But as competition BJJ has gotten bigger, there's just no incentive to spend the time required to have a highly refined uchi mata unless you compete in Judo (or maybe Sambo). It's best performed in gi (although Karo Parisyan and Ronda have landed it to great effect in MMA). It is (or at least was) the most popular throw in international competition because if you hit it right you're getting a high amplitude TD out of it. While Judo rules are based around getting a high amplitude Ippon, BJJ rules give you the same 2 points whether you hit textbook uchi mata or an ugly ankle pick. And that's even assuming no one pulls guard. Same reason there's little incentive to learn (or even attempt) lateral drops in folkstyle wrestling vs. freestyle or greco. In MMA, even high level fighters I've trained around seem to favor wrestling style TD's.

 

[ali137]

i think just do takedown what your best at it

 

[tekkenfan]

Grips are the same. The hip penetration step is also same as for uchi mata but you're a few inches further in to be able to reap inside of far leg. The throw hip mechanics are slightly different from uchi mata as you can see at 0:35 in the video above, where tori is lifting his bent leg out kind of sideways instead of straight back as you would in uchi mata.

Uchi mata and hane goshi (and uki goshi) are different from O goshi (basic hip throw you're thinking of) in that you're "spiking" uke with your hip (rather than planting your butt crack on their quad as you do in O goshi). If a high level Judo BB explodes into one of these throws, the hip penetration feels like getting punched in the gut and will launch you into the air if they maintain upper body control and hike you up onto their hip before turning to complete the throw (harder to do no gi).

Uchi, hane, harai and uki are highly technical. If you've been doing uchi mata for 15 years I'm sure you have a good grasp of the mechanics, but honestly in the last 20 years of cross-training off and on with BJJ guys, I've yet to see a pure BJJ guy with Judo BB level uchi mata unless they very heavily cross-trained Judo.

Back in the 90's I feel like a lot of BJJ BB's were also Judo BB's or had equivalent skill level in gi TD's. But as competition BJJ has gotten bigger, there's just no incentive to spend the time required to have a highly refined uchi mata unless you compete in Judo (or maybe Sambo). It's best performed in gi (although Karo Parisyan and Ronda have landed it to great effect in MMA). It is (or at least was) the most popular throw in international competition because if you hit it right you're getting a high amplitude TD out of it. While Judo rules are based around getting a high amplitude Ippon, BJJ rules give you the same 2 points whether you hit textbook uchi mata or an ugly ankle pick. And that's even assuming no one pulls guard. Same reason there's little incentive to learn (or even attempt) lateral drops in folkstyle wrestling vs. freestyle or greco. In MMA, even high level fighters I've trained around seem to favor wrestling style TD's.

i wouldnt say i have a super clean one lol i just learnt it then and added to my td game i just commit hard to it but usually finish with a pick if they dont fall over and i mma i sue it almost always defensively off single legs especially i love to grapple take guys down and us my bjj so instead of just defending a single or double the conventional way i either re shoot after their failed attempt or i try to throw i try to hit it fast too so doesnt give them time to settle weight or give them time to think


id like to see a vid of someone doing your technique no gi or in mma

 

[ChickenBrother]

i wouldnt say i have a super clean one lol i just learnt it then and added to my td game i just commit hard to it but usually finish with a pick if they dont fall over and i mma i sue it almost always defensively off single legs especially i love to grapple take guys down and us my bjj so instead of just defending a single or double the conventional way i either re shoot after their failed attempt or i try to throw i try to hit it fast too so doesnt give them time to settle weight or give them time to think


id like to see a vid of someone doing your technique no gi or in mma

Vid below is pretty much how I like to do no gi hane goshi, except I like to drive through to hike uke up on my hip more, rather than stepping away as he's doing. For me it feels much cleaner than uchi mata. I really only attempt uchi mata as defense vs. single or failed double as you say.

 

[tekkenfan]

Vid below is pretty much how I like to do no gi hane goshi, except I like to drive through to hike uke up on my hip more, rather than stepping away as he's doing. For me it feels much cleaner than uchi mata. I really only attempt uchi mata as defense vs. single or failed double as you say.

man the idea of reaping that far leg seems very awkward hard since as is aid since i was a early teen iv been doing the near leg good thing is u dont really hve to geta far angle and step back like uchi

 

[ChickenBrother]

man the idea of reaping that far leg seems very awkward hard since as is aid since i was a early teen iv been doing the near leg good thing is u dont really hve to geta far angle and step back like uchi

Here's another vid showing more close ups and a better angle:


This guy is stepping into it the way I like to do it. Once you get the mechanics down, hoisting uke up on your hip feels very clean and almost effortless. Remember that in both uchi mata and hane goshi, if you're doing them correctly the leg "reap" is only incidental - you're lifting your leg to bend over while keeping your hip in the correct position, but the elevation and throw comes from hip mechanics not reaping the leg.

If you have a good uchi mata I'd stick with that - it's probably a more versatile throw all around but depends on your body type. I've seen short guys do it well but uchi mata is considered a "tall guy" throw because the hip mechanics favor the taller man. Hane goshi can work well for shorter guys.

 

[tekkenfan]

Here's another vid showing more close ups and a better angle:


This guy is stepping into it the way I like to do it. Once you get the mechanics down, hoisting uke up on your hip feels very clean and almost effortless. Remember that in both uchi mata and hane goshi, if you're doing them correctly the leg "reap" is only incidental - you're lifting your leg to bend over while keeping your hip in the correct position, but the elevation and throw comes from hip mechanics not reaping the leg.

If you have a good uchi mata I'd stick with that - it's probably a more versatile throw all around but depends on your body type. I've seen short guys do it well but uchi mata is considered a "tall guy" throw because the hip mechanics favor the taller man. Hane goshi can work well for shorter guys.

yeah didnt look like he really kicks hard with the leg vs uchi and harai goshi

im 6 foot 1 fight at 170 and 185 at times so decently tall for the division

 

[tekkenfan]

curious since you are a bb in judo and like mma what judo throw would you say is universally the best or should be the number 1 go to i should say like in boxing jab is the the best punch wrestling a single double are the most common highest % shot curious about judo without the gi


i the gi osoto gari scores alot but u never see it without the gi due to not having grips to push them off balance


from what i seen im thinking it would be between drop seionage o uchi gari uchi mata harai goshi

 

[ChickenBrother]

curious since you are a bb in judo and like mma what judo throw would you say is universally the best or should be the number 1 go to i should say like in boxing jab is the the best punch wrestling a single double are the most common highest % shot curious about judo without the gi


i the gi osoto gari scores alot but u never see it without the gi due to not having grips to push them off balance


from what i seen im thinking it would be between drop seionage o uchi gari uchi mata harai goshi

I had some wins over BBs in competition but I'm Judo brown since mid 90's. At my competition prime I was probably low BB skill equivalent but depended too much on strength and cardio and couldn't hold a candle to the seasoned BBs and high level guys. Haven't trained Judo regularly since then (open mats and off and on BJJ and MMA over the years) but at some point I'd be interested in finding someone to sponsor me for Shodan - probably when my kids are older and I have more free time.

Main challenge doing Judo throws no gi is controlling the upper body. You need that to off balance them and then close the distance and you have a lot more ways to do that with a gi. No gi you're pretty much limited to over under or collar tie up. Maybe a russian arm tie or straight arm their arm away while pushing them against the cage. But once you have a tie up, uchi mata to O uchi or vice versa is a great combo. I've seen harai goshi to great effect when they're against the cage coming forward. I really like drop knee seoi nage in gi but I think it's tougher no gi MMA unless you can hit it before you get sweaty.

Biggest thing is ability to chain techniques. Judo brown and up are taught to have at least 3 clean techniques you can hit very well and can chain together at will. IMO most underutilized Judo technique in MMA is the foot sweep (like a jab in Judo). Lyoto Machida hit a beautiful one vs. Sokodjou (a Judo BB) in their fight before submitting him. I'm always amazed how infrequently MMA guys and wrestlers use foot sweeps. They're literally no risk. When you tie up, go for a foot sweep - if you get the TD, great. If not, chain it immediately to opposite side foot sweep, uchi mata or seoi nage. Even if you do nothing with it, you've put them off balance and made them tentative.



A few months ago there was a BJJ guy (can't remember his name but I think was BW or FTW) on the UFC undercard who hit the most beautiful osoto I've seen in MMA. He faked a jab, then came in with it into a head and arm O soto gari with lead leg. Guy went straight down and tori landed in side control. So damn smooth, wish I could remember the guy's name.

Looked like this but tori initiated by faking the jab:


Another great way to do o soto in no gi I Iearned from a krav maga guy a while back. Not even sure if legal in MMA but it's a neck crank o soto. Just grab the dude's head with one hand under chin and other hand top of his head and twist it to the side. That gets him off balanced and leaning on one leg. Then jump into o soto on that side.

 

[scharwick]

weidman had a great single. took yoel down a couple times with it:

 

[Gabicho]

Tj dillashaw said the same thing regarding the shoe. Said singles don’t work in mma because the lack of a shoe, but there’s countless examples of that not being true. Maybe it’s a smaller guy thing though, because singles seem to work great at hw

Smaller guys tend to be much more agile, fast, flexible and have a higher strength/weight ratio.
So even if you manage to take them down, it's harder to keep them down. They probably can bench press each other off.
Instead, at HW, there's a lot of clumsy people and it's difficult to escape from the bottom. This alleviates as the weight goes down.
Maia sure has a great single, but his greatest assets are:
1) he will keep you down after, with a big threat of submission.
2) if he fails he has a backup plan of pulling half guard and threaten to sweep and he's amazing at it.
3) he improved his striking a lot. Of course it's not his forte and he now avoids risks, but he has no issues landing straights on the opponents who focus just on defending takedowns. So whatever people may say, Maia is big at 170 and nobody likes getting punched in the face by him, so this helps him to set up his single.

I'd say the best takedown for mma is any that does not land you in guard. Because not everyone has Maia or Khabib level passing.

 

[tekkenfan]

Smaller guys tend to be much more agile, fast, flexible and have a higher strength/weight ratio.
So even if you manage to take them down, it's harder to keep them down. They probably can bench press each other off.
Instead, at HW, there's a lot of clumsy people and it's difficult to escape from the bottom. This alleviates as the weight goes down.
Maia sure has a great single, but his greatest assets are:
1) he will keep you down after, with a big threat of submission.
2) if he fails he has a backup plan of pulling half guard and threaten to sweep and he's amazing at it.
3) he improved his striking a lot. Of course it's not his forte and he now avoids risks, but he has no issues landing straights on the opponents who focus just on defending takedowns. So whatever people may say, Maia is big at 170 and nobody likes getting punched in the face by him, so this helps him to set up his single.

I'd say the best takedown for mma is any that does not land you in guard. Because not everyone has Maia or Khabib level passing.

this tbh i feel singles even outside singles with great position doesnt work below 155 at the ufc level yet singles work better at hw than doubles mostly due to guys being wider not as athletic its hard for a big guy to have great balance dc is known as the best wrestler at hw he always runs the pipe or trips

 

[Grappler111]

Another stupid thread. Foot sweep is a wrestling technique. mma or pankration is a "" no-gi"" style!

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

shows part of a interview crazy i feel maia only has such success due to his 2 decades of jj and having insane grip like askren when those hands lock hes got you basically he isnt an explosive guy so yeah he probably would not do well with doubles as in mma if eel you need some spring in your step to have success with it

reading this gave me an aneurysm

 

[listrahtes]

i think just do takedown what your best at it

basically that. Single leg worked perfect into Maias overall fighting style. He wasnt athletic enough for double leg and could adapt perfect to a fucked up single leg ending him in guard.

But it depends highly on the talents someone brings with into the game and were he has an edge about the opponent in his other skills.

 

[rmongler]

basically that. Single leg worked perfect into Maias overall fighting style. He wasnt athletic enough for double leg and could adapt perfect to a fucked up single leg ending him in guard.

But it depends highly on the talents someone brings with into the game and were he has an edge about the opponent in his other skills.

An explosive tackle is good for direct entries to a double; if transitioning to a double as a finish from something else though, not so necessary.

 

[Kvothe_the_kingkiller]

Single leg is especially great if you have a Damien Maia guard and can just pull half guard off a failed single leg.


He does that bodylock with an outside trip/dragdown a lot. I believe that's what he is referring to.

Agreed. Single legs don’t put you directly into good positions the way other take downs and throws can. Many people not fighting Maia simply stand back up. Only because he’s so good once it gets there is the single such a good take down for him.