MMA as it's own style?

[Dexter]

You don't wash black belts. That's holy. Blood, sweat and honour. This is why they are often so discoloured.

You don't wash ANY belt. And when it becomes black, you are good to go .

 

[User89]

You don't wash ANY belt. And when it becomes black, you are good to go .

Yeah you're right. I accidentally told them and they said it was okey this time but never again

 

[JohnPJones]

Lmao. Just watched Thomson-Pettis for the first time from start to finish.

Thompson was litting him up both rounds and was not broken down at all. He got caught backing Pettis up in a totally one sided fight.

Anybody who thinks that was a vindication for Rofus academy is delusional

i'd say getting a fighter into the top level of competition is vindication of rofus academy or any gym/dojo...

 

[j123]

You don't wash ANY belt. And when it becomes black, you are good to go .

What about this belt?

 

[User89]

What about this belt?

Fuck that, these are the costumes you want.

I think I lost a piece of my manhood watching this shit that I can never get back.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Yikes at this thread

 

[TheMaster]

Thats in the present time, but in the future it will probably end up as its own style. The methods and techniques you start to see are in the early stages of that. Besides there are approaches that from single disciplines that would get you in bad doodoo in MMA.

• rear back leg heavy in MT
• MT clinching is asking to get sent to takedown city (the rules limit wrestling, so they're limited playing into the clinch game)
• BJJ: sub hunting instead of using GnP is a bad call. Playing bottom because its safe in BJJ is going to get you pounded into meat. 2 to 1 grips will get you pounded and clipped. Sure the top guys can pull it off, but they are the exception not the rule. You have to always be looking to be on the move, staying stationary is not a good plan
• etc.

Its also why pure bred striking studs get KO'd by lesser strikers in MMA because its a different sport. There are elements from striking that are in it, but its not the be all end all. Same goes for grappling

Yes, MMA is a ruleset that allows a more open format, but styles are formed around the rules of the sport. More restrictive, the more it will be limited to that. Sanda isn't a style either, its a ruleset, and you see the difference in style it is compared to other striking sports. Even though the rules are close to KB and MT, you see the difference.

Yes, there are valid points you make.
But the fact is, unless you are an athletic freak like GSP then guys who were specialists and then cross trained MMA will always be able to impose their game on you at a high level using that skillset.

Few could stop Coutures dirty boxing Greco.
Few could stop Anderson's MMA adapted MT.
Few could stop Cormiers wrestling, or wrestling in reverse when he chose to stand.
Few could stop Barnettes catch wrestling etc etc
So having a core elite base will always be an advantage if you can adapt it.

It's true that things are becoming more equalized like Cormiers choosing to stand with a golden gloves boxer. But so far there is no one who made it big from a pure 'mma school'. Plus elite single discipline combat sports will always exist so they always have the chance to cross over as MMA gets more moneyed and they have more incentive.

 

[User89]

Yes, there are valid points you make.
But the fact is, unless you are an athletic freak like GSP then guys who were specialists and then cross trained MMA will always be able to impose their game on you at a high level using that skillset.

Few could stop Coutures dirty boxing Greco.
Few could stop Anderson's MMA adapted MT.
Few could stop Cormiers wrestling, or wrestling in reverse when he chose to stand.
Few could stop Barnettes catch wrestling etc etc
So having a core elite base will always be an advantage if you can adapt it.

It's true that things are becoming more equalized like Cormiers choosing to stand with a golden gloves boxer. But so far there is no one who made it big from a pure 'mma school'. Plus elite single discipline combat sports will always exist so they always have the chance to cross over as MMA gets more moneyed and they have more incentive.

I went to a shotokan dojo to see how many grown-up beginners they had. They were 6, all women.

If it weren't for kids classes, they would be out of business

 

[yokerclown]

i dont like videos from this guy dunno

 

[TheMaster]

not going to lie, i love these collab videos with mike and seth.

so my thoughts.

if you go to school/gym/dojo/whatever where you have a coach for striking (or two) and a coach for grappling (or two) then MMA doesn't count as it's own style.

however if you have a head instructor teaching you MMA with a distinct and individual flair and they're teaching the striking and grappling it's a style (even if they have assistant instructors)
honestly i think MMA as a style would end up looking a lot like the karate or then known just as Te of okinawa in the 1890s.

MMA is mixture of different martial arts.
If it becomes a 'style' in how it is taught it is simply a derivative of these various systems so it can still never really be a style.

But it can be distilled down in different ways by different head coaches.

Still,anyone who is any good will pick up things from different places so it will really always be a combination of different systems.

 

[JumJum]

I train MMA twice in a week. One day is grappling only and the next is striking. I don't see why it should be complicated

 

[JohnPJones]

MMA is mixture of different martial arts.
If it becomes a 'style' in how it is taught it is simply a derivative of these various systems so it can still never really be a style.

But it can be distilled down in different ways by different head coaches.

Still,anyone who is any good will pick up things from different places so it will really always be a combination of different systems.

Karate is a mixture of older styles and is literally a mixed martial art, does that mean karate doesn't get to be its own style?

 

[TheMaster]

Karate is a mixture of older styles and is literally a mixed martial art, does that mean karate doesn't get to be its own style?

In our modern times we generally divide things by striking, standing grappling/clinch/trapping and ground.

So if you are going to enter mma you would need to be versed in these and therefore be trained in several systems that do not overlap much in skillsets.

Now within certain arts they may themselves have come from an integration of styles but usually within a dominant skillset and area.

Like BJJ comes from Judo which came from several Japanese Ju Jutsu styles. But they were complementary all involving grappling and locking and the striking was removed apart from in kata.

So although you could say Judo is a form of 'grappling mma' it came to us as an established style so thats our starting point.
If you grew up in Kano's time when he was making Judo and you were versed in a certain Ju Jutsu style you maybe had the right to call Judo 'a mixed style'.
But for our generation and when Asian martial arts like Judo and Karate and to the west these were the established base styles from which our modern mma derives.

 

[II Muchetto II]

I don't think MMA is its own style as of yet, but is closer to that position now than its ever been. You have alot more people that jump straight into MMA training without a background in anything else, but that doesn't make MMA a style, but more so a blend of all disciplines.

To be its own style, I would say clubs would have to just teach MMA classes. Currently clubs that teach MMA classes, also hsve BJJ, wrestling, boxing etc all on the timetable, and the students are encouraged to attend all classes.

When a club teaches a full timetable of MMA classes only, and they develop students to a competitive standard, then you can probably say its a style in itself.

 

[JohnPJones]

In our modern times we generally divide things by striking, standing grappling/clinch/trapping and ground.

So if you are going to enter mma you would need to be versed in these and therefore be trained in several systems that do not overlap much in skillsets.

Now within certain arts they may themselves have come from an integration of styles but usually within a dominant skillset and area.

Like BJJ comes from Judo which came from several Japanese Ju Jutsu styles. But they were complementary all involving grappling and locking and the striking was removed apart from in kata.

So although you could say Judo is a form of 'grappling mma' it came to us as an established style so thats our starting point.
If you grew up in Kano's time when he was making Judo and you were versed in a certain Ju Jutsu style you maybe had the right to call Judo 'a mixed style'.
But for our generation and when Asian martial arts like Judo and Karate and to the west these were the established base styles from which our modern mma derives.

you can't say judo is a grappling MMA because judo derives from only one martial art, and that martial art was gutted to create judo.

karate has origins and influences from all over eastern asia, as well as europe by 1950.
from influences in kung fu, tegumi, savate, to muay thai, all had an effect on training and techniques used. by the 80s a lot of judo was already being incorporated into karate, then the 90s hits...

karate by mid century already included striking, clinching, take downs, and take down defense. about the only thing seen in modern MMA that didn't have fairly solid training in karate is ground fighting.

karate by definition is a mixture of martial arts to create a new art which then created many styles within the art.

citation for thai, or i guess siamese influence in the creation of karate.
https://www.karatebyjesse.com/siam-discovering-karates-forgotten-source-pt-1/

karate's high kicks come from france


so unlike judo which is derived from cutting parts out of a single martial art, karate is a mixture of okinawan, chinese, siamese, and french martial arts, both striking, and grappling. that's definitionally mixed martial arts, and all of that occurred long before the term MMA came into use.

 

[TheMaster]

you can't say judo is a grappling MMA because judo derives from only one martial art, and that martial art was gutted to create judo.

Judo derived from multiple styles there was no one style of 'Ju jutsu'.

The listed styles are here

• Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū
• Yoshin ryu
• Shiten ryu
• Sekiguchi Ryu
• Sosuishi Ryu
• Fusen Ryu
• Kito Ryu
• Takenouchi Ryu
• Miura Ryu
• Kyushin Ryu
• Ryōi Shintō-ryū
• Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu

There had commonalities mostly yes. Kanos genius was to distill this into a form that can be done with free practice Randori while eliminating strikes. This is the development of the modem style of Judo. If someone else had distilled it different we may have another very different system based on the above, but with striking involved for example.

But as I said, unless you were around at Kano's time you don't have the right call it a mixed system it came as a style already.

 

[JohnPJones]

Judo derived from multiple styles there was no one style of 'Ju jutsu'.

The listed styles are here

• Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū
• Yoshin ryu
• Shiten ryu
• Sekiguchi Ryu
• Sosuishi Ryu
• Fusen Ryu
• Kito Ryu
• Takenouchi Ryu
• Miura Ryu
• Kyushin Ryu
• Ryōi Shintō-ryū
• Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu

There had commonalities mostly yes. Kanos genius was to distill this into a form that can be done with free practice Randori while eliminating strikes. This is the development of the modem style of Judo. If someone else had distilled it different we may have another very different system based on the above, but with striking involved for example.

But as I said, unless you were around at Kano's time you don't have the right call it a mixed system it came as a style already.

Different styles of one martial art.

You wouldn't say someone was training multiple arts if they trained multiple styles of jiu jitsu
Same for karate. Some one who has trained shotokan and kyokushin has trained only one martial art, karate, but multiple styles of karate.

Jiu jitsu is an art like karate, Kung fu, and boxing.
Different styles are different schools who teach different focuses of that style.

Cuban boxing, for example is style of the martial art known as boxing. So yes judo comes from a single martial art, just like kyokushin comes from a single martial art. Combining styles within a single art does not make it a mixed martial art.

Even if we assume mixing styles equates to mixed martial arts, your own argument means MMA will one day be its own individual art when there's no longer anyone alive old enough to have witnessed UFC1. You literally just defined judo as its own martial art solely based on the amount of time since it was created.

 

[JohnPJones]

The main problem I see in developing your mma game “from
zero to hero” is it’s a very time-consuming process, and you need a really good coaches in striking/grappling with needed expertise in said field who will teach you exact “striking/grappling for MMA”, not just overall techniques for pure independent arts. Never met a pro- or semi-pro who started from scratch here, would be interesting to discuss.

kimbo slice comes to mind. he had never trained a single individual martial art before joining an MMA gym upon entry into the UFC.

 

[TheMaster]

Different styles of one martial art.

You wouldn't say someone was training multiple arts if they trained multiple styles of jiu jitsu
Same for karate. Some one who has trained shotokan and kyokushin has trained only one martial art, karate, but multiple styles of karate.

Jiu jitsu is an art like karate, Kung fu, and boxing.
Different styles are different schools who teach different focuses of that style.

Cuban boxing, for example is style of the martial art known as boxing. So yes judo comes from a single martial art, just like kyokushin comes from a single martial art. Combining styles within a single art does not make it a mixed martial art.

Even if we assume mixing styles equates to mixed martial arts, your own argument means MMA will one day be its own individual art when there's no longer anyone alive old enough to have witnessed UFC1. You literally just defined judo as its own martial art solely based on the amount of time since it was created.

No, the various Ryu styles that formed Judo were different , they can't be called all as just 'Ju Jutsu'. Some had extensive use of striking, some had weapons.
It was Kano who formalized it all into a style he developed, made the Gi and introduced the live safe Randori and Newaza training. As I said, a totally different striking style with minimal throws could have been made from the same sources but ended up only surviving in kata...



Of course some of the striking methods did survive in other arts like Karate and southern Kungfu arts like Wing Chun

And MMA will never be its own style because the base arts are still widely practiced as sports or arts themselves.

So there will always be crossover of wrestlers, BJJers, MT fighters etc who compete and who either want to do MMA or who train upcoming fighters who want to do MMA.

 

[JohnPJones]

No, the various Ryu styles that formed Judo were different , they can't be called all as just 'Ju Jutsu'. Some had extensive use of striking, some had weapons.
It was Kano who formalized it all into a style he developed, made the Gi and introduced the live safe Randori and Newaza training. As I said, a totally different striking style with minimal throws could have been made from the same sources but ended up only surviving in kata...



Of course some of the striking methods did survive in other arts like Karate and southern Kungfu arts like Wing Chun

And MMA will never be its own style because the base arts are still widely practiced as sports or arts themselves.

So there will always be crossover of wrestlers, BJJers, MT fighters etc who compete and who either want to do MMA or who train upcoming fighters who want to do MMA.

The base arts that went into creating karate were at the time were and are still widely practiced and trained...you're making up excuses that make no logical sense to support your belief