My experience about the complementary of Zercher Squat and Back Squat

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Let's see

Not to depth

Legs not locked out

Hips not locked out
 
JimRussel said:
People who aren't very strong and can't find success with real squatting seem to turn to them eventually.

If you can't get the work you need with a barbell through low bar squats, high bar squats, front squats, good mornings, and all the variations of those things, I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe useful for strongman when it comes to picking up stones and heavy shit up off the ground. Even then, I think their application is limited.
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What are your thoughts on goblet squats?
 
JimRussel said:
Quad pump city.
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Just curious. Recently implemented them(trying some new things since maximal strength isn't a priority right now). Don't really know what their reputation is among barbell-centric lifters. Poor man's front squat or legit way to progress an anteriorly-loaded squat?
 
gspieler said:
Just curious. Recently implemented them(trying some new things since maximal strength isn't a priority right now). Don't really know what their reputation is among barbell-centric lifters. Poor man's front squat or legit way to progress an anteriorly-loaded squat?
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I use the landmine so I can load the goblets.
 
My best was 165kg for a triple while weighing about 92kg I think. This was when I was early/mid 20's.

No towel or anything, in the crook of my elbows.

It was quite uncomfortable if I recall, but I could have gone heavier if I had kept at the student lifestyle.

Edit. I always started with the bar on the ground, so my main discomfort was rolling the thing in to my crooks while in a deep squat position to lift the thing up.
I will add; the only reason I got in to zercher deadlifts was because I couldn't use chalk at the uni gym and I was sweaty as hell so couldn't hold the bar at above 120kg I think.
My squat was never very good either. Maybe sets of 5 at 140kg while at 87-92kg.
 
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Volador said:
It's cool that you had that experience with zerchers. Never tried them, maybe I will some day. I can see how they could help one learn to keep a more vertical torso. Just wanted to point out that this:

"I ALWAYS ended up with my torso falling forward at some point. Which is very bad for your back obviously."

Is not necessarily an obvious statement. Your torso falling forward somewhat isn't inherently bad for your back. If it was, exercises like RDL's, good mornings, stiff leg deadlifts, etc, would be impossible to do safely, and we know that isn't true. As long as you load the exercise gradually in terms of volume and intensity, your body will adapt over time. Too much of a good morning squat can be a technical problem that doesn't allow you to use your best leverages or keep the bar over mid foot, which might cause you to eventually miss a rep or become a limiting factor. In that sense it might be something to work on if it's too excessive, but it's not really true that it's "bad" for your back.
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Thanks for your input. Since i created that thread in November i have been only back squatting. Results is my form was probably off despite watching 1875 videos about it and filming myself. I got Proximal Hamstring Tendinopathy in both hamstrings. Let me tell you this injury is a killer. I had to stop squatting begining of April and then i wasn't able to sit for almost 3 weeks. I'm still trying to figure out the torso angle thing but what I know is that with Zercher/Goblet/Front squats I never had this hamstring pain and i think that it was because of the more upright torso which lead to less stretching of the hamstrings. Sucks but that's an experience.

ASUThermo said:
Last night had a conversation with some lifters about zerchers and other odd variations of more common lifts and came to a similar conclusion. Usually a guy that wants to be the "strongest or best in the room" at something, so they will gravitate to something that nobody else is doing or training. Nee xfitters taking wods to inappropriate places in commercial gyms is a similar thing, also the striking noobs shadow boxing in the squat rack.
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I dunno I honestly didn't do them to show off. If anything I used to feel uncomfortable when doing zerchers in the gym because people will sometimes give you a brief akward look and so I tried to put myself in the most discreet rack available.

vision1 said:
I tend to agree with the above too. Might have some good carryover for wrestling/strongman but for the most part, people who do those lifts on these forums aren't competing in either of those sports.

I do enjoy zercher position for reverse lunges. Allows for better balance and load is not limited by pain.
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I first heard of them via christian Thibaudeau. He's a big advocate for zerchers. Then i beginned wrestling and it was advised to do zerchers. Couldn't wrestle due to covid tho. I never tried zercher lunges that's a nice idea, i will do some when i heal up.

To sum it up : i still have a bad back squat technique despite trying my best to learn and it got me really bad hamstring injuries. When I'll be healed I will restart with zerchers again because I feel that they are better suited for a beginner. Not giving up on back squat forever tho.
 
Iron Monger said:
Thanks for your input. Since i created that thread in November i have been only back squatting. Results is my form was probably off despite watching 1875 videos about it and filming myself. I got Proximal Hamstring Tendinopathy in both hamstrings. Let me tell you this injury is a killer. I had to stop squatting begining of April and then i wasn't able to sit for almost 3 weeks. I'm still trying to figure out the torso angle thing but what I know is that with Zercher/Goblet/Front squats I never had this hamstring pain and i think that it was because of the more upright torso which lead to less stretching of the hamstrings. Sucks but that's an experience.
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Hmm. Did you try to load a bunch of weight or do a bunch of volume in a sudden way, or did you gradually work your way up? BSQs are heavier by nature than FSQ, or GSQ or ZSQ. Maybe it wasn't the movement pattern itself, but the loading or volume. I would think small technical errors shouldn't be enough by themselves to cause such an injury, but who knows. Do you deadlift as part of your training at all, and is there pain when you do so? Had you had this injury before or is it 100% new? Have you tried high bar squats (which allow a more vertical torso angle)? Have you tried paused or tempo squats (which are by nature lighter and will make it easier to correct your form)?

It's possible that you have some sort of hamstring issue that makes squatting hard, so if zerchers or front squats work better for you, then so be it. As long as you can load them progressively they should help you get strong, and if you aren't interested in powerlifting, there's nothing magical about the back squat. Just out of curiosity, do you have any videos of your squats?
 
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Volador said:
Hmm. Did you try to load a bunch of weight or do a bunch of volume in a sudden way, or did you gradually work your way up? Maybe it wasn't the movement pattern itself, but the loading or volume. I would think small technical errors shouldn't be enough by themselves to cause such an injury, but who knows. Do you deadlift as part of your training at all, and is there pain when you do so? Had you had this injury before or is it 100% new? Have you tried high bar squats (which allow a more vertical torso angle)? Have you tried paused or tempo squats (which are by nature lighter and will make it easier to correct your form)?

It's possible that you have some sort of hamstring issue that makes squatting hard, so if zerchers or front squats work better for you, then so be it. As long as you can load them progressively they should help you get strong, and if you aren't interested in powerlifting, there's nothing magical about the back squat. Just out of curiosity, do you have any videos of your squats?
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Yes i was working on a linear 5x5 adding 5kg each time i validated a weight.

The pain in my left hamstring started as soon as december but it wasn't big and i tought that i was just sore or something. I was squatting twice a week, deadlifting once a week and RDLs once week. initially no pain when deadlifting. But as it became worse I couldn't hinge at all to the point where even pendlay rows were impossible to do.

I think that if i did pause/tempo squat I wouldn't have been as badly injured. If anything I think I used the "bounce" momentum to much at the bottom and "overstretched" my hamstring if that makes any sense. I feel definitely start again with pause squats.

I also did a lot of streching thinking it would prevent injury but in the case of proximal Hamstring Tendinopathy it makes it worse.

For the high bar squat I tried but given that i had cervical hernia a 3/4 years ago having the bar sitting so high on my traps didn't felt good. When it tests on my rear delts it feels way better.

Yes i'm not interested in competing in powerlifting, I find it fun but my goal is more to get in shape so i can start a combat sport again after summer when it reopens (covid got everything closed this year).

I do have videos of my squats. I'm quite ashamed of my form (and the weight cause i'm not strong) so i won't post it here but i can send them to you in private msg if you'd like.
 
Iron Monger said:
Yes i was working on a linear 5x5 adding 5kg each time i validated a weight.

The pain in my left hamstring started as soon as december but it wasn't big and i tought that i was just sore or something. I was squatting twice a week, deadlifting once a week and RDLs once week. initially no pain when deadlifting. But as it became worse I couldn't hinge at all to the point where even pendlay rows were impossible to do.

I think that if i did pause/tempo squat I wouldn't have been as badly injured. If anything I think I used the "bounce" momentum to much at the bottom and "overstretched" my hamstring if that makes any sense. I feel definitely start again with pause squats.

I also did a lot of streching thinking it would prevent injury but in the case of proximal Hamstring Tendinopathy it makes it worse.

For the high bar squat I tried but given that i had cervical hernia a 3/4 years ago having the bar sitting so high on my traps didn't felt good. When it tests on my rear delts it feels way better.

Yes i'm not interested in competing in powerlifting, I find it fun but my goal is more to get in shape so i can start a combat sport again after summer when it reopens (covid got everything closed this year).

I do have videos of my squats. I'm quite ashamed of my form (and the weight cause i'm not strong) so i won't post it here but i can send them to you in private msg if you'd like.
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Hey brah, no worries. I'm not a doctor or a coach, but yeah, I'd be more inclined to think that it's the loading protocol and programming you're using that's mostly giving you problems and injuries, not your form.

Those linear progressions work for about 6-12 weeks and then they cause problems for many people. If you're doing 2 BSQ sessions of 5x5 a week for 8 weeks, that's 16 sessions. At 10lb/session, that's a 160lbs increase for 5x5 sets across, which is pretty unsustainable in the long term, even if you repeat some sessions in the middle. If you try to keep forcing it, you will stall and/or get hurt. This kind of progression doesn't really exist outside the context of someone completely new to lifting (and for good reason). They're pretty useless unless you're a freak athlete or you've been training less than 3-6 months. You're also grinding sets and attempting maxes all the time. I think you just need better post-novice programming. I crashed and burned on Starting Strength as well after resetting a bunch of times before I found better programming, lol.

I'll take a look at the vid in more detail later and tell you what I think. On the surface there's nothing too bad about it, certainly nothing to be ashamed of haha. Your torso angle is fine and not too horizontal at all imo. Your depth is great. The last rep gets pretty messy because you're just training too heavy.

I would not recommend stretching for injury prevention at all. Your depth is extremely good, and you're definitely flexible enough in the context of lifting.

I also wouldn't assume the squats caused all the problems, since you're deadlifting too. I think the DL would stress you hamstrings more than the squat, and if you're following the same loading pattern of 10lb/session and grinding sets in both exercises, I'm not too surprised about things hurting.
 
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Volador said:
Hey brah, no worries. I'm not a doctor or a coach, but yeah, I'd be more inclined to think that it's the loading protocol and programming you're using that's giving you problems.

Those linear progressions work for about 6-12 weeks and then they cause problems for many people. If you're doing 2 BSQ sessions of 5x5 a week for 8 weeks, that's 16 sessions. At 10lb/session, that's a 160lbs increase for 5x5 sets across, which is pretty unsustainable in the long term, even if you repeat some sessions in the middle. This kind of progression doesn't really exist outside the context of someone completely new to lifting (and for good reason). They're pretty useless unless you're a freak athlete or you've been training less than 3-6 months. You're also grinding sets and attempting maxes all the time. I think you just need better post-novice programming. I crashed and burned on Starting Strength as well after resetting a bunch of times before I found better programming, lol.

I'll take a look at the vid in more detail later and tell you what I think. On the surface there's nothing too bad about it, certainly nothing to be ashamed of haha. Your torso angle is fine and not too horizontal at all imo. Your depth is great. The last rep gets pretty messy because you're just training too heavy.

I would not recommend stretching for injury prevention at all. Your depth is extremely good, and you're definitely flexible enough in the context of lifting.

I also wouldn't assume the squats caused all the problems, since you're deadlifting too. I think the DL would stress you hamstrings more than the squat, and if you're following the same loading pattern of 10lb/session and grinding sets, I'm not too surprised about things hurting.
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Thanks man. For deadlifts strangely it felt like a natural movement the very first time i tried it. Never got any form problem (except when i went too heavy). While as for squats it was a mess from the start and i was able to get a decent form only after studying the subject non stop.

Yes i may need some new programming, i've been lifting for a year and half now i think, some periodization wouldn't hurt. I stayed at linear because my numbers are still not even intermediate (i started from a really low base) so i wanted to push it to there first. But you're right every session was a total grind.
 
JimRussel said:
People who aren't very strong and can't find success with real squatting seem to turn to them eventually.

If you can't get the work you need with a barbell through low bar squats, high bar squats, front squats, good mornings, and all the variations of those things, I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe useful for strongman when it comes to picking up stones and heavy shit up off the ground. Even then, I think their application is limited.
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Just for arguments sake, what do you count as not very strong?
Is a 160kg zercher for reps, for a sub 100 kg person strong?
 
Ian Coe said:
Just for arguments sake, what do you count as not very strong?
Is a 160kg zercher for reps, for a sub 100 kg person strong?
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Christian Thibaudeau has a very interesting article about that :

https://thibarmy.com/16516/

He says that he can zercher more than what he can front squat and that it's also the case for other coaches/clients. He raises some other good points too, definitely worth the read.
 
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