Overhand palm heel vs overhand punch for barefist

[TheMaster]

The reason why a punch would hurt and do more damage is because all that force is being directed into essentially a small point at the end of your two knuckles you should be landing with when you punch. It's like a bullet or a hammer, when you were to hit someone with the palm it spreads the force across more area.
Its very easy to drop someone with a punch to the liver, I'm not sure how easy it would be to drop someone with a palm to the liver. But I've also never been palmed by anyone.

'Palm strike' is a misnomer, it's just that the palm is pulled back but the contact striking area is the intersection of the upper wrist bone and the heel of the hand which is not that much and is fairly hard but with slightly more 'padding' than a knuckle.
If you throw a hook to the body like this hard it will drop someone.

 

[Azam]

Bas fought 5 years in Pancrase and only open hand strikes were allowed. Thats why he perfected them and still likes them a lot. They were his most important weapon for near his entire career because of the ruleset.
Still as soon as he changed to annother ruleset he did not use them anyomore despite them being allowed. If he talks about bouncer job or da streez you have to keep in mind these are 99% drunken fools without any skills. A simple slap is enough most of the times.I wouldnt overthink that. His liver open palm KO is legendary. Love it. And keep in mind we are talking about someone who had to use them as a professional fighter for years. Quite sure Bas open palm strikes are deadly stuff.

Yeah but like you said his open palm strikes were because he wasn't allowed to punch with knuckles/fist in pancrase.

If you are comparing a palm strike to a slap you don't understand them. You connect with the palm heel/wrist bone and it is solid, anatomically more solid than the knuckles and phalanges.

I just don't understand why you would want to palm strike someone's liver....

It's not like you'll break your hand punching someone in the liver. The only real threat is hitting elbow but you'd do that even if you palm striked it - probably would be worse since your fingers would take the smashing from the elbow.

I know what a palm strike is - just don't understand why you would need to palm strike someone in the liver when you can just use your fist - just as easily.

You'd probably get a lot more leverage punching someone in the liver with a fist than with a palm strike.

I can understand palm striking someone in the face but the liver???

 

[Azam]

The reason why a punch would hurt and do more damage is because all that force is being directed into essentially a small point at the end of your two knuckles you should be landing with when you punch. It's like a bullet or a hammer, when you were to hit someone with the palm it spreads the force across more area.
Its very easy to drop someone with a punch to the liver, I'm not sure how easy it would be to drop someone with a palm to the liver. But I've also never been palmed by anyone.

LMAO Chris Kamara is a legend.

Pretty much this.

It makes almost no sense to palm strike someone in the liver when you can punch them with a fist - with significantly more force without your hand smashing to bits on impact.

It's like going on a journey and being given the option to drive in a car or unicycle & opting for the unicycle because you think it has mystical powers....

 

[TheMaster]

I just don't understand why you would want to palm strike someone's liver....

It's not like you'll break your hand punching someone in the liver. The only real threat is hitting elbow but you'd do that even if you palm striked it - probably would be worse since your fingers would take the smashing from the elbow.

I know what a palm strike is - just don't understand why you would need to palm strike someone in the liver when you can just use your fist - just as easily.

You'd probably get a lot more leverage punching someone in the liver with a fist than with a palm strike.

I can understand palm striking someone in the face but the liver???

Yes, and I didn't say that one should palm heel someone to the body instead of punching them. The advantage for a palm strike is definitely to the head where the risk of hitting the skull and damaging the hands is more.

However I was sharing my experience of having used it to wind a sparring partner.
I also have a sense the strike feels a bit different for the person receiving than from a punch, which if they are not used to it can contribute to the effect.

As to a reason why one might use the palm heel/wrist bone to strike the liver rather than a punch; it may become just a preference for those who have used it frequently like anything else. And no less powerful or damaging.

Lol that people start having an emotional breakdown here just because palm strikes are mentioned, as though they are some kind of mystical thing just because Wing Chun and Karate use them.
Hitting with the bone there is not mystical, and it hurts.

 

[Woldog]

Yes, and I didn't say that one should palm heel someone to the body instead of punching them. The advantage for a palm strike is definitely to the head where the risk of hitting the skull and damaging the hands is more.

However I was sharing my experience of having used it to wind a sparring partner.
I also have a sense the strike feels a bit different for the person receiving than from a punch, which if they are not used to it can contribute to the effect.

As to a reason why one might use the palm heel/wrist bone to strike the liver rather than a punch; it may become just a preference for those who have used it frequently like anything else. And no less powerful or damaging.

Lol that people start having an emotional breakdown here just because palm strikes are mentioned, as though they are some kind of mystical thing just because Wing Chun and Karate use them.
Hitting with the bone there is not mystical, and it hurts.

I imagine conditioning plays a large part, I can take kicks to the stomach no worries but have been dropped numerous times from liver shots with punches. To the head I'm not really sure, I've eaten punches and kicks no problem. But have been dropped by a knee directly to the face when I made the ill informed decision to try and slip under a punch in a Muay Thai fight and instead ate a knee right to my cheek bone.
I've never been knocked out but that one was close.
I can't envision being knocked out by a palm strike, I don't doubt it can happen, but I'm not really sold on if its more practical as an overhand. I imagine you have the risk of missing your strike in a street fight and snapping your thumb or dislocating it.

 

[listrahtes]

I can't envision being knocked out by a palm strike, I don't doubt it can happen, but I'm not really sold on if its more practical as an overhand.

Like always in martial arts its about real life implementation. Otherwise we can also discuss the flying finger to the rectum attack. As quite literally no one in full contact goes for it when the rules allow also fist punches and the threadstarter is close to a heart attack when asked for a demo that answers it .
MMA fighters are kind of the worlds largest study group regarding that. Fighting shapes what works in fighting (I know a revolutionary concept) One could argue "but in da streez". Point is if it is not trained in full contact sparring and for fights (and near no one does who has real fighting skills)
its not muscle memorized in a threat scenario so its a purely theoretical discussion.

In a military close combat training be it IDF or US Army its taught by “When we want to hurt someone we use a closed fist, and when we don’t want to hurt someone we used open hand strikes.” Soldiers are not high level martial artists but they get taught what works fast and thats in all their combat trainings.

A link for the interested: https://www.usadojo.com/using-closed-fist-or-open-hand-strikes/ He also talks about why in some concepts open hand attacks are now included as "powerful" attacks:

So, why this big shift that began over a decade ago in how one should strike an opponent in a fight, whether with a closed fist or open hand? I believe that what is happening today in many systems is that they are being diluted by civilian martial artists who have never been in actual fights, and as such they are interjecting a lot of their own theories on conflict that have no historical or tactical basis.

It's like going on a journey and being given the option to drive in a car or unicycle & opting for the unicycle because you think it has mystical powers....

You just described every thread by TheMaster

as though they are some kind of mystical thing just because Wing Chun and Karate use them.

My original background is Karate. Yes we learn them for Kata but NO one uses them in randori. Not even in light sparring. Never has any Karateka told me about it or have I seen it from local up to worldclass events.

However I was sharing my experience of having used it to wind a sparring partner.

Well I also did quite some crazy moves in full contact Virtua Fighter back in the day.Kage-Maru was the shit. Should start a thread about that. Backspin jump Ko

 

[TheMaster]

My original background is Karate. Yes we learn them for Kata but NO one uses them in randori. Not even in light sparring. Never has any Karateka told me about it or have I seen it from local up to worldclass events.

So you are originally a TMA karate guy learning open hand kata.
I guess the real larper mcdojoer according to sherdog standards is you then, since my original background is Judo.

Like always in martial arts its about real life implementation. Otherwise we can also discuss the flying finger to the rectum attack. As quite literally no one in full contact goes for it when the rules allow also fist punches and the threadstarter is close to a heart attack when asked for a demo that answers it .
MMA fighters are kind of the worlds largest study group regarding that. Fighting shapes what works in fighting (I know a revolutionary concept) One could argue "but in da streez". Point is if it is not trained in full contact sparring and for fights (and near no one does who has real fighting skills)
its not muscle memorized in a threat scenario so its a purely theoretical discussion.

In a military close combat training be it IDF or US Army its taught by “When we want to hurt someone we use a closed fist, and when we don’t want to hurt someone we used open hand strikes.” Soldiers are not high level martial artists but they get taught what works fast and thats in all their combat trainings.

A link for the interested: https://www.usadojo.com/using-closed-fist-or-open-hand-strikes/ He also talks about why in some concepts open hand attacks are now included as "powerful" attacks.

You seem to be going to a lot of trouble and distress to discredit palm strikes, they obviously bother you for more reasons than you are saying.

The experience of the link you posted is valid but it is not the only authoratative opinion on this:

- As I have said repeatedly and you keep ignoring, the most famous exponent of open hand strikes in MMA who has also had numerous real life fights recommends palm strikes over punches for self defence against more than one person.
You can't explain this and you keep sidestepping it so you just want to ignore this inconvenient fact and post video game clips...ok buddy boy.
Also he has taught for the Krav Maga guys.

- You can reduce the chance of fingers being hyper extended on missing by curling the knuckles fully as the palm is pulled back, which the article fails to mention.

- An advantage of palms is that force can be calibrated- one can do a relatively harmless slap by using the large part of the palm with fingers extended, or one can use the heel of the hand/upper wrist bone for a very powerful strike.

- Open hand looks more defensive for self defence situations, useful if security cameras or witnesses are there.

- There doesnt have to be an all or nothing approach. Personally I would use both punches and palms, the overhand being one strike I would favour the palm heel hence this thread.
I might also favour the palm heel hook behind the ear as Bas advocates in certain situations and maybe to the chin from certain inside positions, otherwise it would be mainly closed fist punches.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Palm strikes can be pretty effective when you're dealing with individuals that you don't want to injure too badly. And you can generate a lot of force with them. I once split a solid oak door with one when one of my ex-girlfriends locked me out of my apartment during an argument. And I've used it to deal with a drunk friend who decided that he wanted to test me in a bar parking lot one night. I tried to walk away but he came up behind me as I did so I spun around & smacked him in the temple with a palm heel & he went out like a light. Which was actually more damage than I'd intended to do. But I'd had a few too & he pissed me off. So, what I'd intended to be a slap upside his head turned into a palm heel strike & an unconscious friend. But he was fine when he came around & he didn't lose any teeth or get his jaw broken like he may have had I used my fist.

 

[Woldog]

Palm strikes can be pretty effective when you're dealing with individuals that you don't want to injure too badly. And you can generate a lot of force with them. I once split a solid oak door with one when one of my ex-girlfriends locked me out of my apartment during an argument. And I've used it to deal with a drunk friend who decided that he wanted to test me in a bar parking lot one night. I tried to walk away but he came up behind me as I did so I spun around & smacked him in the temple with a palm heel & he went out like a light. Which was actually more damage than I'd intended to do. But I'd had a few too & he pissed me off. So, what I'd intended to be a slap upside his head turned into a palm heel strike & an unconscious friend. But he was fine when he came around & he didn't lose any teeth or get his jaw broken like he may have had I used my fist.

What are your thoughts on potential damage to your hands, both with an overhand punch and an overhand palm?

 

[sweetviolenturg]

What are your thoughts on potential damage to your hands, both with an overhand punch and an overhand palm?

Oh, I'm a boxer at heart & a martial artist second ( even though I was a martial artist first ). If the shit goes down I'm always going to close my hands & use my fists. No question about it.

 

[TheMaster]

Palm strikes can be pretty effective when you're dealing with individuals that you don't want to injure too badly. And you can generate a lot of force with them. I once split a solid oak door with one when one of my ex-girlfriends locked me out of my apartment during an argument.

Holy shit...
I guess the premise of this thread can be answered also;
Since you had wanted to smash down that solid oak door, would you have attempted to punch through it?
I think unlikely, which demonstrates the utility of palm strikes in certain situations.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Holy shit...
I guess the premise of this thread can be answered also;
Since you had wanted to smash down that solid oak door, would you have attempted to punch through it?
I think unlikely, which demonstrates the utility of palm strikes in certain situations.

No, I had a fight coming up & I didn't want to injure my hands in any way so I used my palm to bust up the door.

But when faced with a flesh & blood opponent intent on causing me harm I'll always clench my fists because it's in my nature to do so as a fighter. But you've made some valid points in your posts no doubt.

 

[Woldog]

Holy shit...
I guess the premise of this thread can be answered also;
Since you had wanted to smash down that solid oak door, would you have attempted to punch through it?
I think unlikely, which demonstrates the utility of palm strikes in certain situations.

I'll be sure to remember this thread next time I take a fight against a Solid Oak door.

 

[TheMaster]

I'll be sure to remember this thread next time I take a fight against a Solid Oak door.

Or someone wearing a helmet or body armour.

 

[Woldog]

Or someone wearing a helmet or body armour.

I stopped fighting with Riot police many years ago. Though it could come in handy if one of those uppity little skateboarders ever tries to test me.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Or someone wearing a helmet or body armour.

I stopped fighting with Riot police many years ago. Though it could come in handy if one of those uppity little skateboarders ever tries to test me.

yall can come out to Portland fuckin Oregon and join one of the antifa vs.
Proud boy brawls. Both sides are kitted out with mad max armor, shields, batons, pepper spray, paintball guns, and mma gloves. The cops just wash their hands of it and let them go at it in city parks. It’s wild

 

[Woldog]

yall can come out to Portland fuckin Oregon and join one of the antifa vs.
Proud boy brawls. Both sides are kitted out with mad max armor, shields, batons, pepper spray, paintball guns, and mma gloves. The cops just wash their hands of it and let them go at it in city parks. It’s wild

Can we add player 3. Sherbros United and just fuckn ouss ouss them both?

 

[Azam]

I just want to witness @TheMaster palm striking proud boys in the liver.

Witness them run into a building for safety - only for the master to follow by palm striking the doors off their hinges and proceeding to tko them via palm strikes to the liver.

One of the proud boys thinks he's smart and puts on body armour - not realising that the master's palm strikes render body armour useless.

I imagine something like this tbh but with the power of one punch man:

 

[listrahtes]

So you are originally a TMA karate guy learning open hand kata.
I guess the real larper mcdojoer according to sherdog standards is you then, since my original background is Judo.

I started with Judo for a very short time and then Karate then onto Kobudo/Ninjutsu/Tai Chi. So yes I do come from an extensive TMA background. Also yes to parts of that being like larping. Absolutely who doesnt want to sneak around like a Ninja pleease.

And again you bringing up Bas. YES Bas has deadly open palm strikes. I wrote about it. He was FORCED to only use them for near his whole career as a professional fighter thats why he trained them to perfection BUT even Bas ignored them completely in fighting when he was allowed see his last 2 fights. You wont find even one strike like that. I get why he still likes them its his signature move but he is the one exception and that was only because of Pancrase. A bouncer uses open hand to NOT injure.

I just want to witness @TheMaster palm striking proud boys in the liver.
I imagine something like this tbh but with the power of one punch man:

Dont you dare make fun of Dwight Schrute the god of fire security drills. To this day one of the funniest scenes of all time when Angela throws her cat into the ceiling. <Lmaoo>

 

[TheMaster]

.
And again you bringing up Bas. YES Bas has deadly open palm strikes. I wrote about it. He was FORCED to only use them for near his whole career as a professional fighter thats why he trained them to perfection BUT even Bas ignored them completely in fighting when he was allowed see his last 2 fights. You wont find even one strike like that. I get why he still likes them its his signature move but he is the one exception and that was only because of Pancrase. A bouncer uses open hand to NOT injure.

Clarification;
He ignored them in an environment where the knuckles are protected by gloves, which is specifically addressed from the outset in this thread.

He clearly says for more than one opponent and without gloves he favours them. Not because they don't hurt people although you can scale force much easier open-hand, but because they can finish the fight with less risk of damaging the hands.

Yes Bas perfected them in Pancrase where punches were forbidden. But if MMA was done without gloves I can guarantee you would see alot more fighters perfecting them also.