Philly she'll, thoughts opinions?

JohnPJones

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I find it interesting because of how non-conventional it is, but also because it's pretty similar to a few postures in karate, though I don't for a second think they're supposed to be the shell.

Just curious what the striking forum thinks of it. Who here uses it?
 
I find it interesting because of how non-conventional it is, but also because it's pretty similar to a few postures in karate, though I don't for a second think they're supposed to be the shell.

Just curious what the striking forum thinks of it. Who here uses it?
I almost always used it. But would often switch to more traditional blocking as well.
For me it just came naturally and was my go to, but I can understand that for some people it just feels weird to them.
I remember in the game Fight Night Champion it looked ridiculous.
 
The Philly shell can be great for boxing but ut is quite vulnerable to kicks.
 
I almost always used it. But would often switch to more traditional blocking as well.
For me it just came naturally and was my go to, but I can understand that for some people it just feels weird to them.
I remember in the game Fight Night Champion it looked ridiculous.
roll and overhand. your gameplan
 
roll and overhand. your gameplan
Nah that fight I didn't even philly shell, I think I just had my hands down the entire time if I recall.
 
Nah that fight I didn't even philly shell, I think I just had my hands down the entire time if I recall.
Didnt you sham overhand in 150 of 130 fights?
 
The Philly shell can be great for boxing but ut is quite vulnerable to kicks.

So I use/teach a variant on philly shell (i call it stone wall because i'm a nerd and thats the original name) and cross arm guard and to be honest this isn't really true. If you're doing Muay Thai properly you should be defending kicks by checking with your legs as much as possible and teeping frequently

You've vulnerable to kicks in the same way that every guard is vulnerable to kicks but you're not really more or less vulnerable than any other guard. I think this is a lil' bit more of a thing that people used to think because you don't really see it in sports with kicking, Dustin Poirier wasn't around at the time after all
 
The shoulder roll is cool. Staying in the shell for prolonged periods like mayweather is just asking for trouble
 
So I use/teach a variant on philly shell (i call it stone wall because i'm a nerd and thats the original name) and cross arm guard and to be honest this isn't really true. If you're doing Muay Thai properly you should be defending kicks by checking with your legs as much as possible and teeping frequently

You've vulnerable to kicks in the same way that every guard is vulnerable to kicks but you're not really more or less vulnerable than any other guard. I think this is a lil' bit more of a thing that people used to think because you don't really see it in sports with kicking, Dustin Poirier wasn't around at the time after all

Andy thats interesting - how did you roll punches and not load your lead leg so that you can still check with it? I tried it once or twice in nuay thai sparring and didn't get punished with calf kicks but I could sense the vulnerabilify while slipping and rolling
 
Andy thats interesting - how did you roll punches and not load your lead leg so that you can still check with it? I tried it once or twice in nuay thai sparring and didn't get punished with calf kicks but I could sense the vulnerabilify while slipping and rolling

So of course, I have modified it and my style is MORE cross arm guard than shoulder roll, although I have it as a part of my system

So for me you start in a basic guard, when the punch comes in rather than doing the full shoulder roll, I will flip my elbow up, to deflect it, and be ready to catch the punch with my elbow on the other side

Dustin Poirier does a decent example here:
giphy.gif

He isn't at a perfect range to flip the jab up but he still succeeds in defending it

One of the advantages imo, of having more active elbows for defending is that because your arms are in motion a little more, you have more mental flow to also catch a kick if need be.

Here's a good sparring example:


The real difficulty with developing this, was just watching tons of tape for hours, rewinding etc, because every explanation of the cross arm guard for boxing and muay thai on YouTube is wrong. Cross arm videos are literally just people putting their arms up in crossed position to block punches and doing nothing else, often with the wrong arm on top lol

For me I mixed what I was being taught by my coach, with Archie Moore, who's my favourite classic boxer and have just developed it through trial and error with a few trusted peeps
 
sergei kharitonov Uses it well in boxing, kickboxing, and mma. I trained a little with a pro who won some titles out of mayweathers stables and he showed me some fundamentals of it but that’s really it.
 
So of course, I have modified it and my style is MORE cross arm guard than shoulder roll, although I have it as a part of my system

So for me you start in a basic guard, when the punch comes in rather than doing the full shoulder roll, I will flip my elbow up, to deflect it, and be ready to catch the punch with my elbow on the other side

Dustin Poirier does a decent example here:
giphy.gif

He isn't at a perfect range to flip the jab up but he still succeeds in defending it

One of the advantages imo, of having more active elbows for defending is that because your arms are in motion a little more, you have more mental flow to also catch a kick if need be.

Here's a good sparring example:


The real difficulty with developing this, was just watching tons of tape for hours, rewinding etc, because every explanation of the cross arm guard for boxing and muay thai on YouTube is wrong. Cross arm videos are literally just people putting their arms up in crossed position to block punches and doing nothing else, often with the wrong arm on top lol

For me I mixed what I was being taught by my coach, with Archie Moore, who's my favourite classic boxer and have just developed it through trial and error with a few trusted peeps


I see what you mean now - you are using a variation of the Archie Moore/Foreman guard as opposed to the philly shell offshoot of the family which is more static and reliant on the shoulder roll. I can particularly see the utility for blocking powerful head kicks and it doesn't root the lower body like the philly shell does which makes it terribly vulnerable to being kicked or swept
 
I see what you mean now - you are using a variation of the Archie Moore/Foreman guard as opposed to the philly shell offshoot of the family which is more static and reliant on the shoulder roll. I can particularly see the utility for blocking powerful head kicks and it doesn't root the lower body like the philly shell does which makes it terribly vulnerable to being kicked or swept

Yeah I use the shoulder roll, but when I do, I don't turn the foot in, and create that extra whip needed with the elbow. The philly shell is mostly the same stuff, just with more focus on that shoulder roll but its largely the same
 
Several of Russian "street-boxing" schools, based on modified boxing and greco-roman wrestling also use different cross-guard variations for closing the distance, seems pretty legit.
 
Yeah I use the shoulder roll, but when I do, I don't turn the foot in, and create that extra whip needed with the elbow. The philly shell is mostly the same stuff, just with more focus on that shoulder roll but its largely the same

How do you find your modified cross guard advantageous compared to the standard muay thai guards?
 
Several of Russian "street-boxing" schools, based on modified boxing and greco-roman wrestling also use different cross-guard variations for closing the distance, seems pretty legit.

Do you have any links on this? Would like to know more about their approaches
 
How do you find your modified cross guard advantageous compared to the standard muay thai guards?

It makes elbows much easier to land, give you more protection and allows you to come forward more, so it specifically benefits knee fighters and clinch fighters. If you're more of a kickboxer, quick flashes into it (provided you have an active teep game) make sore a more secure block than standard blocking with the gloves.

It also gives you a very easy way to defend straight off a jab, you jab and then bring your elbow up into have a cross guard and you have an immediate parry for whatever they were going to follow up with.

Another good thing is that it basically guarantees that your opponent is going to try to dig your body, which means that they're going to be lowering their base a lot, walking into teeps and knees. It's like the inverse of fighters who fight with their hands down, people say that it's 'bad defence' but it means you KNOW your opponent will always be head hunting so you know you always have to defend your head. Same principle with the cross guard, people are going to try to swing at the body, and you should have a plan ready for it.

The caveat here though is that this is something I've been developing through LOTS of trial and error, tape studying, drilling and sparring, and even I don't have it all figured out yet - I'd definitely recommend someone experiment with it, but I think for most people in the world right now, they're better off sticking to the fundamentals. I use it all the time and SOME of my regular students and competitors use it, but not all of them
 
It makes elbows much easier to land, give you more protection and allows you to come forward more, so it specifically benefits knee fighters and clinch fighters. If you're more of a kickboxer, quick flashes into it (provided you have an active teep game) make sore a more secure block than standard blocking with the gloves.

It also gives you a very easy way to defend straight off a jab, you jab and then bring your elbow up into have a cross guard and you have an immediate parry for whatever they were going to follow up with.

Another good thing is that it basically guarantees that your opponent is going to try to dig your body, which means that they're going to be lowering their base a lot, walking into teeps and knees. It's like the inverse of fighters who fight with their hands down, people say that it's 'bad defence' but it means you KNOW your opponent will always be head hunting so you know you always have to defend your head. Same principle with the cross guard, people are going to try to swing at the body, and you should have a plan ready for it.

The caveat here though is that this is something I've been developing through LOTS of trial and error, tape studying, drilling and sparring, and even I don't have it all figured out yet - I'd definitely recommend someone experiment with it, but I think for most people in the world right now, they're better off sticking to the fundamentals. I use it all the time and SOME of my regular students and competitors use it, but not all of them

Thanks Andy for the reply. It looks useful to experiment with to add variety to ones game. It would also add more structure and pain inducement on the attacker when used to block high kicks especially when one is not wearing gloves.
 
Their sites are down for some reason, but several fragments of seminars\training sessions are available on YT:







Some of that in the last clip reminds me of Rodney King's crazy monkey system.
 
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