Philly she'll, thoughts opinions?

[AndyMaBobs]

Thanks Andy for the reply. It looks useful to experiment with to add variety to ones game. It would also add more structure and pain inducement on the attacker when used to block high kicks especially when one is not wearing gloves.

If you do test it out for yourself, remember that your sparring partner is immediately going to try body shots and uppercuts, because they think that you're more open to uppercuts when you've got an arm blocking your chin... than you are in basic guard where you don't have your chin defended at all.

You can clamp down on the uppercut with your bottom arm and lock them into a clinch, turn them etc. and vs an active body puncher, be sure to teep and front kick to keep them at range and be ready to block body shots in a more traditional manner, don't spend all your time with your face in the cross guard, you just want to flash into it for moments, its a group of positions more than it is an actual guard

 

[Sanserif]

If you do test it out for yourself, remember that your sparring partner is immediately going to try body shots and uppercuts, because they think that you're more open to uppercuts when you've got an arm blocking your chin... than you are in basic guard where you don't have your chin defended at all.

You can clamp down on the uppercut with your bottom arm and lock them into a clinch, turn them etc. and vs an active body puncher, be sure to teep and front kick to keep them at range and be ready to block body shots in a more traditional manner, don't spend all your time with your face in the cross guard, you just want to flash into it for moments, its a group of positions more than it is an actual guard

Good points those...it needs to be a momentary position and one remains in standard guard otherwise. Are you using similar arm positions in evading and blocking punches as shown in Dexter's 1st and 2nd clips above?

 

[Dexter]

Good points those...it needs to be a momentary position and one remains in standard guard otherwise. Are you using similar arm positions in evading and blocking punches as shown in Dexter's 1st and 2nd clips above?

It might not be clear from the clips, but system's founder give great emphasis on a "work on a collision course", so it's not for static defense or backward stepping, it's for an aggressive moving forward, smashing the opponents arms, creating angles and counter-punching immediately. So it's not very suitable for pure technical guys who can't punch hard.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Good points those...it needs to be a momentary position and one remains in standard guard otherwise. Are you using similar arm positions in evading and blocking punches as shown in Dexter's 1st and 2nd clips above?

Tell you what, I'll DM you a video of my fighter using it in sparring, it's got some early days stuff in it that you should be able to replicate fairly easily, but be careful and remember to mostly stick to your fundamentals, because ofc I'm not actually there to show you HOW to do it

Edit: you should have it now

 

[Sanserif]

Tell you what, I'll DM you a video of my fighter using it in sparring, it's got some early days stuff in it that you should be able to replicate fairly easily, but be careful and remember to mostly stick to your fundamentals, because ofc I'm not actually there to show you HOW to do it

Edit: you should have it now

Many thanks Andy!

 

[Sanserif]

It might not be clear from the clips, but system's founder give great emphasis on a "work on a collision course", so it's not for static defense or backward stepping, it's for an aggressive moving forward, smashing the opponents arms, creating angles and counter-punching immediately. So it's not very suitable for pure technical guys who can't punch hard.

Now that you mentioned it I can see that now in this clips, thanks again

 

[Minowafanatic]

So of course, I have modified it and my style is MORE cross arm guard than shoulder roll, although I have it as a part of my system

So for me you start in a basic guard, when the punch comes in rather than doing the full shoulder roll, I will flip my elbow up, to deflect it, and be ready to catch the punch with my elbow on the other side

Dustin Poirier does a decent example here:

He isn't at a perfect range to flip the jab up but he still succeeds in defending it

One of the advantages imo, of having more active elbows for defending is that because your arms are in motion a little more, you have more mental flow to also catch a kick if need be.

Here's a good sparring example:


The real difficulty with developing this, was just watching tons of tape for hours, rewinding etc, because every explanation of the cross arm guard for boxing and muay thai on YouTube is wrong. Cross arm videos are literally just people putting their arms up in crossed position to block punches and doing nothing else, often with the wrong arm on top lol

For me I mixed what I was being taught by my coach, with Archie Moore, who's my favourite classic boxer and have just developed it through trial and error with a few trusted peeps

How do you deal with straight shots to the body when in a cross arm guard? Is it with a lean forwards and counters?

 

[zapataxiv]

How do you deal with straight shots to the body when in a cross arm guard? Is it with a lean forwards and counters?

if you look at Moore and guys like?him a lot of the defence came from the hips so if you cross ATM you are already using it after a level change or pivot and cocking your hips to a side that way you have heavy power or can hang something in heir face with the lead hand

 

[sweetviolenturg]

While fighting or sparring with those individuals who employed the Philly shell & its variations I always focused on the body & doubled up on uppercuts & hooks with varying degrees of success. Really, it all came down to the fighter. Like anything else whether it's a style of boxing or a style of martial arts, it's the practitioner not so much the style that determines how successful it is. I've KO'd fighters who employed it in a round or two & I've had my ass handed to me by others. I didn't have too many problems with it though because I came up throughout my amateur & pro career sparring regularly with a world-rated pro by the name of Calvin "Pop" Porter who used the Philly shell. So, I was used to it.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

How do you deal with straight shots to the body when in a cross arm guard? Is it with a lean forwards and counters?

The way you described works, but I think its a little more of a boxing thing, I'm weary of too much leaning forward in muay thai/mma context
I personally like to parry with the fore arm and take an angle, but simply lowering the cross guard to cover the body will work too

 

[AndyMaBobs]

if you look at Moore and guys like?him a lot of the defence came from the hips so if you cross ATM you are already using it after a level change or pivot and cocking your hips to a side that way you have heavy power or can hang something in heir face with the lead hand

This, also full disclosure, this is something I'm still developing, so I don't yet have the answer for every question... not yet anyway

 

[shincheckin]

I dont think the Philly shell is good for kicking sports. It is vulnerable to head kicks. It can be done but so can anything.

Piggy backing on the cross guard or diamond guard. I taught myself it by watching Dekkers and have used it in sparring and fights. I simply used it as a block or way to tie up. Its interesting to see Sylvie throw strikes from it. I had never thought of that but I suppose thats the difference from teaching yourself vs being taught by a top level Thai. The amount of information that is readily available compared to back in the day is nuts. I can recall when there weren't even books on MT at the library. Only TMAs.

I made a video about it with plenty of examples of it being used by Dekkers.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I dont think the Philly shell is good for kicking sports. It is vulnerable to head kicks. It can be done but so can anything.

Piggy backing on the cross guard or diamond guard. I taught myself it by watching Dekkers and have used it in sparring and fights. I simply used it as a block or way to tie up. Its interesting to see Sylvie throw strikes from it. I had never thought of that but I suppose thats the difference from teaching yourself vs being taught by a top level Thai. The amount of information that is readily available compared to back in the day is nuts. I can recall when there weren't even books on MT at the library. Only TMAs.

I made a video about it with plenty of examples of it being used by Dekkers.

she's taught herself it, but Karuhat is stepping in to be a sparring partner on it.

Tbh you have to really have a system planned out and drilled a lot, because the cross guard isn't just a block, there's a whole system of movement with it + philly shell/shoulder roll is part of that system that makes it work

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Now that you mentioned it I can see that now in this clips, thanks again

I forgot to mention it earlier but Mads Burnell is also one for the cross arm guard/shoulder roll (philly shell)


He mixes old school boxing with decent kickboxing. Very good fighter, UFC were foolish cutting him

 

[j123]

...so I don't yet have the answer for every question... not yet anyway

@Valhoven, proof this guy doesn't know how to deal with spacetime

 

[shincheckin]

she's taught herself it, but Karuhat is stepping in to be a sparring partner on it.

Tbh you have to really have a system planned out and drilled a lot, because the cross guard isn't just a block, there's a whole system of movement with it + philly shell/shoulder roll is part of that system that makes it work

yeah it was cool to see elbows thrown from it, or even a kick. Drilling the elbow out of that guard looks like it would be killer.

 

[Buddy Revell]

It’s overused considering how few people are actually qualified to teach it.

An active and accurate jab, slick footwork, waist movement, are still the biggest keys to effective fighting and sound defense IMO.

The philly shell as it was practiced by Floyd and James Toney were only perfected by them well into their 30s. And both of them grew up with the style.

But now you’ve got tones of young guys with no pedigree in the style just adopting it like they’re prime Floyd or the James Toney that beat Vasily Jirov when he was 3-4 weight classes above his prime and having a potbelly. No. Just no.

I definitely also think that the over reliance on padwork based training in the US nowadays does encourage lazy and flatfooted boxing. You don’t see many of these types coming out of say, Mexico or Europe

 

[zapataxiv]

It’s overused considering how few people are actually qualified to teach it.

An active and accurate jab, slick footwork, waist movement, are still the biggest keys to effective fighting and sound defense IMO.

The philly shell as it was practiced by Floyd and James Toney were only perfected by them well into their 30s. And both of them grew up with the style.

But now you’ve got tones of young guys with no pedigree in the style just adopting it like they’re prime Floyd or the James Toney that beat Vasily Jirov when he was 3-4 weight classes above his prime and having a potbelly. No. Just no.

I definitely also think that the over reliance on padwork based training in the US nowadays does encourage lazy and flatfooted boxing. You don’t see many of these types coming out of say, Mexico or Europe

like

 

[j123]

like

like, for the emperor

 

[zapataxiv]

like, for the emperor

corpse emperor on his throne of lies.