Social Political correctness vs Islamophobia - is there compatibility of Islamic and Western values?

[It-is-what-it-is]

How compatable are Islamic beliefs and values with Western society?

It seems that there is always either a simplified view of Islamic extremism in the media, or a reactionary 'Islamophobia' labels thrown around but little actual examination of the fundamental tenets of the faith and doctrines they live by.

So hopefully there can be some civil discourse about these issues from both perspectives.

An example of gross double standards about this here.
The ban of religious attire in work places recently by the EU, which was criticized heavily by Erdogen as 'Islamophobic'.

https://www.rt.com/viral/529526-turkey-eu-headscarf-ruling/

Yet it seems he does not want to apply anything like the same standards of criticism to muslim communities both at home and abroad and any legal systems they try to enforce.

A Czeck politition had given a strongly phrased talk on it but in my view she is basically accurate in the description of the fundamental issues here and why there will always be some conflict, worth reading.

https://motls.blogspot.com/2016/05/klara-samkovas-talk-should-we-be-afraid.html?m=1


Some soundbites

"Islam....is primarily a totalitarian system of governance in which God only plays a substitutive role because the main content of Islam is nothing else than the arrangement of the state matters. As opposed to Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, or Shintoism, the heart of Islam is the law, namely the Islamic Sharia law."

"It wants to be protected according to our tradition which it exploits in this way, while it is not willing to behave reciprocally."

"From the viewpoint of Islam, the concept of religion as a private, intimate matter of an individual is absolutely unacceptable...Islam rejects the individual conception of faith in God and in a totalitarian way, it forbids all doubts about itself."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

https://exmuslims.org/

For example in Saudi Arabia religious freedom is almost non existent.

"the public practice of any other religion than Islam is illegal and even private worship is severely restricted. Mosques are the only public places of worship and the construction of non-Muslim places of worship is outlawed. Non-citizens are required to carry identity cards, which classify them into “Muslims” and “non-Muslims” and non-citizens applying for naturalisation must convert to Islam prior to the procedure."

http://www.hscentre.org/middle-east-and-north-africa/saudi-arabia-affront-religious-freedom/

So we have a well know Muslim leader calling an EU ruling 'fascist' simply because they block the overt display of any religious attire like the veil in workplaces. Yet he will keep his mouth totally shut regarding religious persecution and lack of rights of atheists and non Muslims in Muslim nation's which would by the same standard be far far worse.

We find similar repression of non muslims in many Muslim countries, and total silence about this from those who throw the Islamaphobia label around.

https://www.state.gov/reports/2018-report-on-international-religious-freedom/morocco/

So to what degree can Islam ever be truly reconciled with Western secular values? And can these same standards be applied all around when evaluating these issues?

What are the western values? Are you suggesting that the entire west is all on the same page about their values? Because that would be absurd.

Values are personal. Every individual has their own point of view shaped by different life experiences and therefore their values will differ.


You have kkk members on one end and leftist extremists on the other, most of the rest are in between. All these people clearly don't have the same values, yet they coexist in the same country.

The same is true in muslim countries, not everyone is on the same page. You have the ultra conservatives who are strict with themselves and others and then you the other side who don't take religion too seriously.



There's only 5 things you have to do as a muslim :
"

1. Profession of Faith (shahada). The belief that "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God" is central to Islam. This phrase, written in Arabic, is often prominently featured in architecture and a range of objects, including the Qur'an, Islam's holy book of divine revelations. One becomes a Muslim by reciting this phrase with conviction.
2. Prayer (salat). Muslims pray facing Mecca five times a day: at dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset, and after dark. Prayer includes a recitation of the opening chapter (sura) of the Qur'an, and is sometimes performed on a small rug or mat used expressly for this purpose (see image 24). Muslims can pray individually at any location (fig. 1) or together in a mosque, where a leader in prayer (imam) guides the congregation. Men gather in the mosque for the noonday prayer on Friday; women are welcome but not obliged to participate. After the prayer, a sermon focuses on a passage from the Qur'an, followed by prayers by the imam and a discussion of a particular religious topic.
3. Alms (zakat). In accordance with Islamic law, Muslims donate a fixed portion of their income to community members in need. Many rulers and wealthy Muslims build mosques, drinking fountains, hospitals, schools, and other institutions both as a religious duty and to secure the blessings associated with charity.
4. Fasting (sawm). During the daylight hours of Ramadan, the ninth month of the Islamic calendar, all healthy adult Muslims are required to abstain from food and drink. Through this temporary deprivation, they renew their awareness of and gratitude for everything God has provided in their lives—including the Qur'an, which was first revealed during this month. During Ramadan they share the hunger and thirst of the needy as a reminder of the religious duty to help those less fortunate.
   
   
   
   Fig. 1. Portrait of Prince Muhammad Buland Akhtar, known as Achhe Sahib, at Prayer: Folio from an album, 17th century; painter: Hujraj; India; ink and opaque watercolor on paper; 13 1/16 x 9 in. (33.2 x 22.9 cm); The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Rogers Fund, 1925 (25.138.2)
   
   This illustration shows a Mughal prince praying on a mat that features an arch recalling the shape of a prayer niche (mihrab), symbolic of the gateway to Paradise. The prince is barefoot as a gesture of humility before God. The simplicity of his surroundings is an indication of piety; the emphasis here is on the prince's spiritual nature rather than the opulence of his costume or surroundings (which is the case in many royal Mughal portraits; see The Mughal Court and the Art of Observation).
   
   
5. Pilgrimage (hajj). Every Muslim whose health and finances permit it must make at least one visit to the holy city of Mecca, in present-day Saudi Arabia. The Ka'ba, a cubical structure covered in black embroidered hangings, is at the center of the Haram Mosque in Mecca (fig. 2). Muslims believe that it is the house Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic) built for God, and face in its direction (qibla) when they pray. Since the time of the Prophet Muhammad, believers from all over the world have gathered around the Ka'ba in Mecca on the eighth and twelfth days of the final month of the Islamic calendar.
   
   

"

These are the "5 pillars of islam" .

 

[TheMaster]

What are the western values? Are you suggesting that the entire west is all on the same page about their values? Because that would be absurd.

Values are personal. Every individual has their own point of view shaped by different life experiences and therefore their values will differ.


You have kkk members on one end and leftist extremists on the other, most of the rest are in between. All these people clearly don't have the same values, yet they coexist in the same country.

The same is true in muslim countries, not everyone is on the same page. You have the ultra conservatives who are strict with themselves and others and then you the other side who don't take religion too seriously.



There's only 5 things you have to do as a muslim :
"

1. Profession of Faith (shahada). The belief that "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God" is central to Islam. This phrase, written in Arabic, is often prominently featured in architecture and a range of objects, including the Qur'an, Islam's holy book of divine revelations. One becomes a Muslim by reciting this phrase with conviction.
2. Prayer (salat). Muslims pray facing Mecca five times a day: at dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset, and after dark. Prayer includes a recitation of the opening chapter (sura) of the Qur'an, and is sometimes performed on a small rug or mat used expressly for this purpose (see image 24). Muslims can pray individually at any location (fig. 1) or together in a mosque, where a leader in prayer (imam) guides the congregation. Men gather in the mosque for the noonday prayer on Friday; women are welcome but not obliged to participate. After the prayer, a sermon focuses on a passage from the Qur'an, followed by prayers by the imam and a discussion of a particular religious topic.
3. Alms (zakat). In accordance with Islamic law, Muslims donate a fixed portion of their income to community members in need. Many rulers and wealthy Muslims build mosques, drinking fountains, hospitals, schools, and other institutions both as a religious duty and to secure the blessings associated with charity.
4. Fasting (sawm). During the daylight hours of Ramadan, the ninth month of the Islamic calendar, all healthy adult Muslims are required to abstain from food and drink. Through this temporary deprivation, they renew their awareness of and gratitude for everything God has provided in their lives—including the Qur'an, which was first revealed during this month. During Ramadan they share the hunger and thirst of the needy as a reminder of the religious duty to help those less fortunate.
   
   
   
   Fig. 1. Portrait of Prince Muhammad Buland Akhtar, known as Achhe Sahib, at Prayer: Folio from an album, 17th century; painter: Hujraj; India; ink and opaque watercolor on paper; 13 1/16 x 9 in. (33.2 x 22.9 cm); The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Rogers Fund, 1925 (25.138.2)
   
   This illustration shows a Mughal prince praying on a mat that features an arch recalling the shape of a prayer niche (mihrab), symbolic of the gateway to Paradise. The prince is barefoot as a gesture of humility before God. The simplicity of his surroundings is an indication of piety; the emphasis here is on the prince's spiritual nature rather than the opulence of his costume or surroundings (which is the case in many royal Mughal portraits; see The Mughal Court and the Art of Observation).
   
   
5. Pilgrimage (hajj). Every Muslim whose health and finances permit it must make at least one visit to the holy city of Mecca, in present-day Saudi Arabia. The Ka'ba, a cubical structure covered in black embroidered hangings, is at the center of the Haram Mosque in Mecca (fig. 2). Muslims believe that it is the house Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic) built for God, and face in its direction (qibla) when they pray. Since the time of the Prophet Muhammad, believers from all over the world have gathered around the Ka'ba in Mecca on the eighth and twelfth days of the final month of the Islamic calendar.
   
   

"

These are the "5 pillars of islam" .

Yes that's fine, there are a range of values in any culture.
But modern Western values as also enshrinednm in law can be seen as being secular values and freedom of expression which includes freedom of religon, fundamental human rights that are alien to Islamic culture.

Let's look at another recent example of the freedom of expression at the historic speakers corner where a woman was recently attacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57965251

No one can argue that the rights Muslims receive in Western counties are a veritable heaven compared to the rights non-muslims receive in Muslim countries. This is an example of the difference in values.
And yet when some of them come to the West they sometimes want to enforce these same Islamic laws here. It doesn't work like that.

You can quote the '5 pillars of Islam' but this doesn't account cultural practices of Muslims and their values.

Let me ask you directly:

If a family member of yours decides to renounce Islam how would you react?

If a female family member decided to marry a non Muslim how would you react?

If person was publicizing or talking about Charlie Hebdo material, how would you react?

How would you feel about a homosexual Muslim?

Do you believe Muslims should be allowed to follow Sharia law in Western countries?

You say in Islam it is the same with extremes of the right and left, but it would seem the standard is more towards the 'right' as the norm.
What is your experience and an example of extreme leftist liberal Muslims and what do you feel about it?

 

[It-is-what-it-is]

Alright first thing's first. I don't believe in God. That's not to say I believe that there's definitely no god, I'm just genuinely indifferent either way.

I'm not here to defend anything islam says or muslims do. I'm more interested in speaking the truth as objectively as possible, and stating my opinion.


I was raised muslim, I spent most of my childhood till around 12 y.o. in sudan, a muslim country in africa with sharia law. At 12 we moved to the uk.

So even though I don't believe in God, it's not like i'm a complete outsider either.

That being said , I was just a child so my perspective is going to be different. You're not going to take your 6 y.o. to watch the adulterers get stoned to death no matter what your religion is. So I never saw any of that crazy shit. I don't know if it happens but I assume it does since that's what the law says.

I grew up in the capital city, things are more stable there.

But modern Western values as also enshrinednm in law can be seen as being secular values and freedom of expression which includes freedom of religon, fundamental human rights that are alien to Islamic culture.

I disagree, the law doesn't necessarily represent the views of the people. Especially if it's an old law from back when things were different.

Sharia law says women have to dress a certain way , cover their hair etc.. but I saw people not abiding by that law all the time. Especially young women, they would either have their hijab (head scarf) half way on (muslim equivalent of showing cleavage hahaha) or not wear a head scarf at all . If/when they get caught they would get in trouble, but they do it anyway.

So the law doesn't necessarily represent the values of the people.
"The women of Sudan are pushing for a feminist agenda


12 Jul 2021 — On 8 April 2021, hundreds of Sudanese women marched in the capital city of ... working on women's rights and gender issues in Sudan"

In the same way I might look at the laws in the west that chop everything a man has in half after a divorce or the incredible bias towards women in terms of child custody etc. . I would look at that and say dudes in the west are suffering an injustice. Am I to use that to say western values are f*ck up?

These laws don't represent alot of dudes out there who suffered through the court system or the dudes terrified to get married because of this. So laws don't necessarily reflect what people think.


That's why I quoted you the 5 pillars of islam, that's all you need to do as a muslim. Everything else is people being extra imo. You don’t need sharia law to be a muslim.
As long as you do the 5 you're good.

secular values and freedom of expression which includes freedom of religon, fundamental human rights that are alien to Islamic culture.

I would push back on this a bit. Here in the uk there's no free speech. If you're a racist and you're caught saying racist stuff you'd be arrested for hate speech. Canada and Australia have similar laws. Any opinions that the government finds unsatisfactory will be labelled hate speech and you're gonna get arrested for it and face hate speech charges.

Only in America can people state their opinions freely, that's why there's kkk in America but not here in the uk. There's plenty of racist people here, but they know they would be arrested simply for stating their opinions, because this country isn't free.


That's not to say I support the kkk I don't. But free speech is like that. If just one opinion is illegal to express then you no longer have free speech.


As for sharia law I haven't really studied it, and i'm not interested in defending it either. There's alot to criticise about it, but I wouldn't criticise it without reading up on it either.

Let's look at another recent example of the freedom of expression at the historic speakers corner where a woman was recently attacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57965251

I just looked it up. Again, not going to defend this.

No one can argue that the rights Muslims receive in Western counties are a veritable heaven compared to the rights non-muslims receive in Muslim countries.

I agree with that.

This is an example of the difference in values.

Not necessarily, laws don't necessarily reflect the values of the people.

You might be in a country that allows you freedom of religion, yet you get treated like shit by the people. Or you might get restricted in your religious freedom in other countries yet the people are hospitable.

Not saying that this is always true. But there's something to be said for that.

Just because the laws are nice doesn't necessarily mean that the people are and visa versa

And yet when some of them come to the West they sometimes want to enforce these same Islamic laws here. It doesn't work like that.

I've never met 1 muslim who was advocating for sharia law to come to the West, infact you'll find most muslims are against that (my guess, so take it with a pinch of salt). Even if that wasn't the reason why they moved to the west it's got to be one of the things that they didn't like about their country of origin.


So idk who's advocating for sharia law to come to the West, but they're definitely a minority.

You can quote the '5 pillars of Islam' but this doesn't account cultural practices of Muslims and their values.

Again, I quoted that to say , all you have to do as a muslim is these 5. You can be a muslim even if you ignore all the other stuff.

Be more specific. What muslim values are you uncomfortable with?

As for cultural practices, that's not really relevant imo. Islam is in many different countries, each with its own culture and history. If there's cultural problems, then I wouldn't attribute that to Islam, but to that particular country, since other muslims around the globe aren't part of that culture, and so it's not appropriate to attribute it to Islam.

If a family member of yours decides to renounce Islam how would you react?

If a female family member decided to marry a non Muslim how would you react?

If person was publicizing or talking about Charlie Hebdo material, how would you react?

How would you feel about a homosexual Muslim?

Do you believe Muslims should be allowed to follow Sharia law in Western countries?

These questions would put me in a tight spot if I was muslim hahahaha. Thankfully, I can just say I'm not even muslim so I wouldn't care.

You say in Islam it is the same with extremes of the right and left, but it would seem the standard is more towards the 'right' as the norm.

I certainly haven't studied the political situation in muslim countries, so I'm just talking about my experiences growing up in Al Sudan.

The law wasn't always sharia law over there, there was alot of Christian Sudanese, mostly from the south. But things changed, the president changed to a more conservative one and he brought in sharia law.


Then the Christians in the south weren't happy about it, eventually leading to the country splitting in two to what is now Sudan and South Sudan being two different countries now.

(I didn't do research on this, this is just a casual summary of the events in reality it was probably a more bloody break up with war crimes etc...)


So idk if the whole country is more right leaning or if it's just the effect of the people in power forcing their views on the people via laws , police etc...

What is your experience and an example of extreme leftist liberal Muslims and what do you feel about it?

I was a child, so I wasn't really involved politically.

But I think you have a point here, there's no free speech in these countries so dissent against the government is not a thing to do lightly.

People die in protests, not because of accidents, but the police/military would directly open fire on protesters (not always, but it's happened alot). So you're putting your life on the line to protest the way the government does things.


So it's not that leftists don't exist, it's more of, they keep their opinions to themselves, unless they feel strongly enough about something to risk their lives and protest about it.


What do I feel about the Sudanese leftist extremists? I feel that they are both rare and timid lol.

 

[Chappi]

Religion has to go, all of them and everywhere.
All religious people are complete idiots and they have no place in the world of today, because they hold everyone else back.
It's time to grow up kids, santa is not real.

 

[Denter]

Yes that's fine, there are a range of values in any culture.
But modern Western values as also enshrinednm in law can be seen as being secular values and freedom of expression which includes freedom of religon, fundamental human rights that are alien to Islamic culture.

Let's look at another recent example of the freedom of expression at the historic speakers corner where a woman was recently attacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57965251

No one can argue that the rights Muslims receive in Western counties are a veritable heaven compared to the rights non-muslims receive in Muslim countries. This is an example of the difference in values.
And yet when some of them come to the West they sometimes want to enforce these same Islamic laws here. It doesn't work like that.

You can quote the '5 pillars of Islam' but this doesn't account cultural practices of Muslims and their values.

Let me ask you directly:

If a family member of yours decides to renounce Islam how would you react?

If a female family member decided to marry a non Muslim how would you react?

If person was publicizing or talking about Charlie Hebdo material, how would you react?

How would you feel about a homosexual Muslim?

Do you believe Muslims should be allowed to follow Sharia law in Western countries?

You say in Islam it is the same with extremes of the right and left, but it would seem the standard is more towards the 'right' as the norm.
What is your experience and an example of extreme leftist liberal Muslims and what do you feel about it?

Like I said in my previous post, in the US the questions above are generally answered in conformity with the prevailing culture. I'm not sure about Europe, but I did write a bit about how Algerians in France are much more violent than Algerians in Algeria. Heck, Algerian religious organizations began running PSAs to discourage Algerian women from marrying French men who visited the country, as this had become so prevalent. I think you need to focus less on the religion, which is indeed quite uncompromising, and more on the actual situation as it exists in the ghettos of France and the UK. That probably would answer more questions than interrogating the Islamic law opinions of lay people.

 

[Islam Imamate]

How compatable are Islamic beliefs and values with Western society?

It seems that there is always either a simplified view of Islamic extremism in the media, or a reactionary 'Islamophobia' labels thrown around but little actual examination of the fundamental tenets of the faith and doctrines they live by.

So hopefully there can be some civil discourse about these issues from both perspectives.

An example of gross double standards about this here.
The ban of religious attire in work places recently by the EU, which was criticized heavily by Erdogen as 'Islamophobic'.

https://www.rt.com/viral/529526-turkey-eu-headscarf-ruling/

Yet it seems he does not want to apply anything like the same standards of criticism to muslim communities both at home and abroad and any legal systems they try to enforce.

A Czeck politition had given a strongly phrased talk on it but in my view she is basically accurate in the description of the fundamental issues here and why there will always be some conflict, worth reading.

https://motls.blogspot.com/2016/05/klara-samkovas-talk-should-we-be-afraid.html?m=1


Some soundbites

"Islam....is primarily a totalitarian system of governance in which God only plays a substitutive role because the main content of Islam is nothing else than the arrangement of the state matters. As opposed to Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, or Shintoism, the heart of Islam is the law, namely the Islamic Sharia law."

"It wants to be protected according to our tradition which it exploits in this way, while it is not willing to behave reciprocally."

"From the viewpoint of Islam, the concept of religion as a private, intimate matter of an individual is absolutely unacceptable...Islam rejects the individual conception of faith in God and in a totalitarian way, it forbids all doubts about itself."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

https://exmuslims.org/

For example in Saudi Arabia religious freedom is almost non existent.

"the public practice of any other religion than Islam is illegal and even private worship is severely restricted. Mosques are the only public places of worship and the construction of non-Muslim places of worship is outlawed. Non-citizens are required to carry identity cards, which classify them into “Muslims” and “non-Muslims” and non-citizens applying for naturalisation must convert to Islam prior to the procedure."

http://www.hscentre.org/middle-east-and-north-africa/saudi-arabia-affront-religious-freedom/

So we have a well know Muslim leader calling an EU ruling 'fascist' simply because they block the overt display of any religious attire like the veil in workplaces. Yet he will keep his mouth totally shut regarding religious persecution and lack of rights of atheists and non Muslims in Muslim nation's which would by the same standard be far far worse.

We find similar repression of non muslims in many Muslim countries, and total silence about this from those who throw the Islamaphobia label around.

https://www.state.gov/reports/2018-report-on-international-religious-freedom/morocco/

So to what degree can Islam ever be truly reconciled with Western secular values? And can these same standards be applied all around when evaluating these issues?

Not surprised to see the smooth brain takes ITT(especially from the Czech politician) though surprisingly there are some that aren't bad too.

First off this discussion is loaded with assumptions that I don't think hold. For one both the West and Islamic worlds are shared inheritors of the ancient Mediterranean cultural tradition so there's more similarity there than people think. For instance, Morocco and Spain traditionally have decent relations with one another and in fact that relationship goes back centuries when the two closed ranks against the Ottoman onslaught(though to be fair its recently been strained over the Western Sahara question). Morocco was actually the first country to recognize the US, even before the French despite the latter having aided in the American Revolution.

And within each cultural sphere there are key distinctions. In the case of the West a big one is exemplified by the difference between the Anglo-Protestant political tradition, exemplified by Britain and the US, and that of the French Revolution. The former is much amenable to religion playing a role in public life and generally has a more conservative system of governance whereas the governance tradition established by the French Revolution is far more hostile to organized religion and in general is a more radical, intrusive form of governance.

The Anglo-Protestant tradition is much more compatible with Islam than the radical republicanism of the French since the former is more willing to let communities self govern according to their own local laws and customs while the radical republicanism of the French insists on freeing people from said customs often against their own wishes. So consider the issue of Sharia courts, in the UK there was precedent for it in the form of religious arbitration courts within Jewish and Christian communities but that kind of thing is antithetical to the French tradition. Unfortunately many people around the world have been seduced by the pernicious values of the French Revolution.

Another wrinkle is that there are lots of different cultural tradition encompassed within the Islamic world and some of those cultures will have more tension with Western cultures. So more agrarian, traditional subcultures like that of South Asian Muslims will have more tension when compared to more urbanized, cosmopolitan populations like from Lebanon or Iran.

In order for that to happen Saudi Arabia will have to lose it's influence of the Muslim world and Mecca will need to be opened up like the tourist attraction that is the Vatican. I want to take a selfie wearing a "there is no god" shirt by the Kaaba while throwing up the double horns. Until doing this wouldn't pose an immediate threat to my life those Muslims begging for acceptance can kiss my ass.

Lmao at wanting to turn our sacred ancestral sites into a Disneyland free-for-all, what a joke.

Being somewhat "on the inside" of how American Islam is coming along, I can observe several things going on:

1. Any sort of extremism or terrorism was completely nipped in the bud after 9/11, and the only people who do it now are lone wolves or entrapped by the FBI, normally psychologically marginal people. The terrorism risk was overblown and is basically nil.
2. The parallel society is not forming, instead, masjids are turning into protestant churches, with basketball courts, youth groups, protestant hermeneutics applied to the Koran, 'church' lady councils running everything and congregational organization, which leads to....
3. Liberalization. As the nature of a highly scaled society is allowed to democratically influence an organization, it will inevitably become more individualistic and atomized, leading to Joel Osteen tier personal fulfillment sermons, charitable works, and increasing compliance with monocultural mores. The liberalization is ongoing and quite striking, and only seems to not infect immigrants and a small group of genuinely devout Muslims who increasingly isolate themselves from the broader culture. All the people born here basically have the values of the general culture, with everything that entails. For example, I've witnessed almost monolithic acceptance of homosexuality (which is strictly forbidden) and condemnation and divorces as the result of polygamy (which is allowed), with no apparent thought as to the place these two things have in their divine law.

This is a good take here. I will say that Islam might be a bit more resilient to liberalization given how important some of the ancestral traditions are. For instance, go to any of these more liberal mosques you mentioned and you'll still see the liturgy in Arabic, separation of the sexes, and the observation of the strict dress code.

But I do see your point about creeping liberalization and assimilation to the monoculture. That's why I find it funny to see people claim Muslims are secretly trying to take over when its the opposite and the force of the global monoculture is even swallowing Muslim communities. Sad but it is what it is I guess.

 

[Bald1]

Not surprised to see the smooth brain takes ITT(especially from the Czech politician) though surprisingly there are some that aren't bad too.

First off this discussion is loaded with assumptions that I don't think hold. For one both the West and Islamic worlds are shared inheritors of the ancient Mediterranean cultural tradition so there's more similarity there than people think. For instance, Morocco and Spain traditionally have decent relations with one another and in fact that relationship goes back centuries when the two closed ranks against the Ottoman onslaught(though to be fair its recently been strained over the Western Sahara question). Morocco was actually the first country to recognize the US, even before the French despite the latter having aided in the American Revolution.

And within each cultural sphere there are key distinctions. In the case of the West a big one is exemplified by the difference between the Anglo-Protestant political tradition, exemplified by Britain and the US, and that of the French Revolution. The former is much amenable to religion playing a role in public life and generally has a more conservative system of governance whereas the governance tradition established by the French Revolution is far more hostile to organized religion and in general is a more radical, intrusive form of governance.

The Anglo-Protestant tradition is much more compatible with Islam than the radical republicanism of the French since the former is more willing to let communities self govern according to their own local laws and customs while the radical republicanism of the French insists on freeing people from said customs often against their own wishes. So consider the issue of Sharia courts, in the UK there was precedent for it in the form of religious arbitration courts within Jewish and Christian communities but that kind of thing is antithetical to the French tradition. Unfortunately many people around the world have been seduced by the pernicious values of the French Revolution.

Another wrinkle is that there are lots of different cultural tradition encompassed within the Islamic world and some of those cultures will have more tension with Western cultures. So more agrarian, traditional subcultures like that of South Asian Muslims will have more tension when compared to more urbanized, cosmopolitan populations like from Lebanon or Iran.

Lmao at wanting to turn our sacred ancestral sites into a Disneyland free-for-all, what a joke.

This is a good take here. I will say that Islam might be a bit more resilient to liberalization given how important some of the ancestral traditions are. For instance, go to any of these more liberal mosques you mentioned and you'll still see the liturgy in Arabic, separation of the sexes, and the observation of the strict dress code.

But I do see your point about creeping liberalization and assimilation to the monoculture. That's why I find it funny to see people claim Muslims are secretly trying to take over when its the opposite and the force of the global monoculture is even swallowing Muslim communities. Sad but it is what it is I guess.

One way street, eh?

And lmao at sacred ancestral site. It is Disneyland. You just keep it to yourself. Why can't I mosh around a meteorite with the rest of you? Sounds very exclusionary and intolerant.

 

[Denter]

Not surprised to see the smooth brain takes ITT(especially from the Czech politician) though surprisingly there are some that aren't bad too.

First off this discussion is loaded with assumptions that I don't think hold. For one both the West and Islamic worlds are shared inheritors of the ancient Mediterranean cultural tradition so there's more similarity there than people think. For instance, Morocco and Spain traditionally have decent relations with one another and in fact that relationship goes back centuries when the two closed ranks against the Ottoman onslaught(though to be fair its recently been strained over the Western Sahara question). Morocco was actually the first country to recognize the US, even before the French despite the latter having aided in the American Revolution.

And within each cultural sphere there are key distinctions. In the case of the West a big one is exemplified by the difference between the Anglo-Protestant political tradition, exemplified by Britain and the US, and that of the French Revolution. The former is much amenable to religion playing a role in public life and generally has a more conservative system of governance whereas the governance tradition established by the French Revolution is far more hostile to organized religion and in general is a more radical, intrusive form of governance.

The Anglo-Protestant tradition is much more compatible with Islam than the radical republicanism of the French since the former is more willing to let communities self govern according to their own local laws and customs while the radical republicanism of the French insists on freeing people from said customs often against their own wishes. So consider the issue of Sharia courts, in the UK there was precedent for it in the form of religious arbitration courts within Jewish and Christian communities but that kind of thing is antithetical to the French tradition. Unfortunately many people around the world have been seduced by the pernicious values of the French Revolution.

Another wrinkle is that there are lots of different cultural tradition encompassed within the Islamic world and some of those cultures will have more tension with Western cultures. So more agrarian, traditional subcultures like that of South Asian Muslims will have more tension when compared to more urbanized, cosmopolitan populations like from Lebanon or Iran.

Lmao at wanting to turn our sacred ancestral sites into a Disneyland free-for-all, what a joke.

This is a good take here. I will say that Islam might be a bit more resilient to liberalization given how important some of the ancestral traditions are. For instance, go to any of these more liberal mosques you mentioned and you'll still see the liturgy in Arabic, separation of the sexes, and the observation of the strict dress code.

But I do see your point about creeping liberalization and assimilation to the monoculture. That's why I find it funny to see people claim Muslims are secretly trying to take over when its the opposite and the force of the global monoculture is even swallowing Muslim communities. Sad but it is what it is I guess.

A decent definition of "western" is where Abrahamic religious traditions have grappled and interacted with the legacy of Greece and Rome. Islam is a western religion; that doesn't mean there are warm feelings of brotherhood between Muslims and Christians (or Jews) but it simply means they are operating within some of the same frames. Its quite funny to me to read about these South Indian sultans naming their sons 'Aristu-Jah" or "Sikander" -anyway, that's neither here nor there.

Re: more resistant- I think that's wishful thinking. Sunni Islam, like Judaism, has a legal tradition of interpretation by scholars, which means it can be pulled and turned far more easily than a religion with a high-cost-of-entry hierarchy (like the Catholics). The Papacy has its share of infiltrators but it hasn't wavered that much on its doctrine, despite full spectrum media attacks for decades.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Really it all boils down to violence. I don’t suspect that gender roles in the Amish and Mormon communities are a great improvement over muslims, but we’re fine with them practicing what they please.

I really don’t care that you force the hijab on women, but please, don’t kill me or my countrymen.

While it’s correct to point out the cultural incompatibilities, such as views on homosexuals and women, on a personal level I don’t care how people feel, so long as it doesn’t extend into real life violence.

The violence issue is one where on paper there really isn't an incompatibility. Orthodox institutions and scholars condemn terrorism all the time. I know non-Muslims think this is taqiyya but there is a deep tradition of such institutions condemning rebellion and civil strife. There is an Arab saying that goes something like "40 years of tyranny is better than one night of anarchy" and part of the role of the scholars was to mediate between rulers and ruled to avoid civil strife. Scholars have even justified tolerating prostitution precisely as an outlet for excess male energy, so as to avoid the kind of instability that that can have if it doesn't have an outlet.

In the modern era this is even more true since these religious institutions are co-opted by and beholden to the state unlike their classical counterparts which were much more locally organized and rooted. And so naturally these regime friendly scholars are going to condemn violent resistance against the state whether or not its justified.

Like I said in my previous post, in the US the questions above are generally answered in conformity with the prevailing culture. I'm not sure about Europe, but I did write a bit about how Algerians in France are much more violent than Algerians in Algeria. Heck, Algerian religious organizations began running PSAs to discourage Algerian women from marrying French men who visited the country, as this had become so prevalent. I think you need to focus less on the religion, which is indeed quite uncompromising, and more on the actual situation as it exists in the ghettos of France and the UK. That probably would answer more questions than interrogating the Islamic law opinions of lay people.

Again I think you hit the nail on the head here. Its a complex problem but really the scripture is the least of our concerns.

You can't boil it down to one thing but part of the problem is that Muslim communities in the West have a uniquely problematic manifestation of the feral male problem. Society is okay with feral males so long as they are chemically and/or electronically sedated incels. This of course generates dysfunctional demographics down the line but that's a time frame that our quarter-to-quarter and election-to-election political economy is not equipped to deal with. Some of these feral males aren't so harmless, like the mass shooter or the much more common petty career criminal. Among the Muslims these latter types are more likely to engage in voluntary collective action, either on their own accord or at the bidding of some charismatic leader, and that magnifies the damage they can do.

One way street, eh?

And lmao at sacred ancestral site. It is Disneyland. You just keep it to yourself. Why can't I mosh around a meteorite with the rest of you? Sounds very exclusionary and intolerant.

Some of us don't want every corner of the earth turned into a tourist site, maybe that's weird to you but it is what it is. Besides aren't you one of the guys who advocates for being exclusionary and intolerant of Muslims? If anything that'd make it a two way street, no?

 

[Bald1]

The violence issue is one where on paper there really isn't an incompatibility. Orthodox institutions and scholars condemn terrorism all the time. I know non-Muslims think this is taqiyya but there is a deep tradition of such institutions condemning rebellion and civil strife. There is an Arab saying that goes something like "40 years of tyranny is better than one night of anarchy" and part of the role of the scholars was to mediate between rulers and ruled to avoid civil strife. Scholars have even justified tolerating prostitution precisely as an outlet for excess male energy, so as to avoid the kind of instability that that can have if it doesn't have an outlet.

In the modern era this is even more true since these religious institutions are co-opted by and beholden to the state unlike their classical counterparts which were much more locally organized and rooted. And so naturally these regime friendly scholars are going to condemn violent resistance against the state whether or not its justified.

Again I think you hit the nail on the head here. Its a complex problem but really the scripture is the least of our concerns.

You can't boil it down to one thing but part of the problem is that Muslim communities in the Wesr have a uniquely problematic manifestation of the feral male problem. Society is okay with feral males so long as they are chemically and/or electronically sedated incels. This of course generates dysfunctional demographics down the line but that's a time frame that our quarter-to-quarter and election-to-election political economy is not equipped to deal with. Some of these feral males aren't so harmless, like the mass shooter or the much more common petty career criminal. Among the Muslims these latter types are more likely to engage in voluntary collective action, either on their own accord or at the bidding of some charismatic leader, and that magnifies the damage they can do.

Some of us don't want every corner of the earth turned into a tourist site, maybe that's weird to you but it is what it is. Besides aren't you one of the guys who advocates for being exclusionary and intolerant of Muslims? If anything that'd make it a two way street, no?

Do you ever get sick of lying in defense of you "faith"?

 

[dragonsfly]

The Western society is the most annoying society to ever exist... Dude if you wanna allow gay marriages and other detestable stuff like that fine do it in your territories and basically do you and I do me but don't get mixed up in my shit. Thinking the western way of life is cool or the only way of life is the biggest fallacy in the western society but this form of life-style is viewed backyard in the east and labelled as Jahiliyaa meaning literally the way of the jahil(Backyard ignorant). This people have lived such life-styles centuries before in the Babylonians, Eygptians, Symarians etc etc.. Sodom and Gomorrah etc etc.. They have seen all that and done all that but they understand that it is indeed a backyard life-style in of itself with consquences for inner society and want no part of it. If you wanna drink from that cop fine go ahead and do it at your pleasure but don't come in here and tell me of values it just doesn't fly with the east..

But never assume the east will join you in this evil path to another Babylonian era of self-destruction... Gays have more rights where same sex marriages is allowed etc etc.. God please no.... Hell to the fukin no.. Keep that shit to yourself and stay far away from me and my descandants.. No to self-destruction.. No mas

 

[Islam Imamate]

A decent definition of "western" is where Abrahamic religious traditions have grappled and interacted with the legacy of Greece and Rome. Islam is a western religion; that doesn't mean there are warm feelings of brotherhood between Muslims and Christians (or Jews) but it simply means they are operating within some of the same frames. Its quite funny to me to read about these South Indian sultans naming their sons 'Aristu-Jah" or "Sikander" -anyway, that's neither here nor there.

We think of East vs West a lot these days but in the classical period the Mediterranean was the key cultural sphere and it united parts of what we consider East(Egypt, Syria) and West(Southern Europe). Both Islam and Christendom are inheritors of that tradition and it often acts a bridge between Islam and Christendon,.

Re: more resistant- I think that's wishful thinking. Sunni Islam, like Judaism, has a legal tradition of interpretation by scholars, which means it can be pulled and turned far more easily than a religion with a high-cost-of-entry hierarchy (like the Catholics). The Papacy has its share of infiltrators but it hasn't wavered that much on its doctrine, despite full spectrum media attacks for decades.

Well Orthodox Judaism has remained fairly conservative and cohesive. The big problem is that due to the nature of their religion they don't attract new blood unlike Islam. But at the same time I think you have a point, that we Muslims shouldn't take the resiliency of our religion for granted.

Do you ever get sick of lying in defense of you "faith"?

Where did I lie? Didn't you advocate for policing the dress of Muslim women? Don't you advocate for excluding Muslim immigrants from Europe? Don't you advocate for government regulation and intrusion within Islamic religious organizations? Maybe I am mistaken here but that seems to be your stance.

 

[Yehudim]

A decent definition of "western" is where Abrahamic religious traditions have grappled and interacted with the legacy of Greece and Rome. Islam is a western religion; that doesn't mean there are warm feelings of brotherhood between Muslims and Christians (or Jews) but it simply means they are operating within some of the same frames. Its quite funny to me to read about these South Indian sultans naming their sons 'Aristu-Jah" or "Sikander" -anyway, that's neither here nor there.

Re: more resistant- I think that's wishful thinking. Sunni Islam, like Judaism, has a legal tradition of interpretation by scholars, which means it can be pulled and turned far more easily than a religion with a high-cost-of-entry hierarchy (like the Catholics). The Papacy has its share of infiltrators but it hasn't wavered that much on its doctrine, despite full spectrum media attacks for decades.

To the West of India and Persia? It's an Arabian reform religion. Certainly parts of the Muslim world are inheritors to the Western tradition, but Islam as a religion being Western?

 

[It-is-what-it-is]

Why can't I mosh around a meteorite with the rest of you?

<Lmaoo><Lmaoo>

 

[Islam Imamate]

The eternal conflict is very simple. Take the U.S. of A. for example... We have a U.S. Constitution which is the Law of the Land, the foundation for which all things are established in our country. In Islam, the Sharia Law is the Law of the Land, the foundation for which all things are established in their daily lives.

All Islamic believers will always work to cause Sharia to prevail over anyone's "Law of the Land." This makes them enemies inside of any non-Islamic country, unless they pledge to live under the host country's "Law of the Land."

Any muslim who is faithful to Sharia will call any other muslim an unbeliever if there is a pledge to live under a host country's "Law of the Land."

If you look at US history, before and after the Constitution, religious minorities self segregating and organizing their communal life according to their religious norms were incredibly common and for some communities the whole point of crossing the Atlantic.

Another issue is that some Westerners like you have a very narrow conception of what "law" is, essentially being unable to think of it as anything other than centrally dictated and bureaucratically imposed. But that's not at all what sharia law as like in the classical period, in fact it was precisely the opposite; locally articulated and enforced through local communal norms and social pressures rather than by a bureaucratic state.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Did I just get teleported back to 2015?

Lmao, thought something similar. Really don't get a lot of these kinds of threads these days, mostly whining about trannies.

It all depends on how fundamental you are. There are a lot of Muslims that simply believe Mohammed was a messenger of God and try to live a good life. Then there are unfortunately a large number that want to live under Sharia Law and for Islam to rule the Earth. The latter is not compatible with Western or free societies.

My hope is as time goes on, Muslims as a whole become less convservative like the Christians have. I want everyone to be free to practice whatever religion they want but I have no tolerance for intolerance and wanting to subjugate the world with your religion or beliefs.

You don't understand the first thing about sharia law, its probably more compatible with American values than the values of the French Revolution are.

 

[The Chosen]

What do you mean by Western society? It is definitely incompatible with liberalism, whether it be the liberalism of the Enlightenment or the liberalism of the modern university. I would say it doesn’t attract many westerners because of its absolute nature, there isn’t really room for compromise or expansion on doctrine, Muhammad brought more detailed orders; compare that to Christianity where Jesus brings a vague message of having to accept he is the son of god, being against religious hypocrisy, etc. and entrusted his apostles to embed most of what would turn into Christian ritual and tradition, becoming the Catholic church. Islam is based on the total submission to god, while in European history there has always been an intellectual tradition of a sort of skepticism and atheism, with the fundamentalists being relegated to the peasant classes, which is even seen today with American Christian fundamentalists and puritans being relegated to farm land rural red states, with the ruling class of New England/ New York/ Silicone Valley being all cynical atheist types residing in those big city blue states. Both of these groups are weary of Islam, disregard whatever support for Zionism or Palestinian liberation either side has, if they were offered the opportunity to convert really none of them would.

 

[mjfan23]

To the West(I get you are replying to someone who said western) of India and Persia? It's an Arabian reform religion. Certainly parts of the Muslim world are inheritors to the Western tradition, but Islam as a religion being Western?

An Arabian reform religion ? West of India?

Out of curiosity why would you simplify it like that?

Indonesia, Malaysia etc are officially Muslim nations but are they to the west of Persia or India? Or did you mean it cause it originated in Arabian peninsula? So did the other two Abrahamic faiths in that case!

 

[Spiritual Sight]

Here's something to be measured... Christian Preacher stabbed at Speaker's Corner in London England.

Hatun Tash is a Syrian/Muslim born convert to Christianity. In her application for political asylum , she wrote things against the Islamic faith, including things against her brothers which resulted in her brothers being murdered in Syria after Hatun had moved to England. When confronted about the brothers' deaths and the things she wrote about them (Video available on YouTube), she didn't say whether those things were true or not.

Speaker's Corner is a place where people congregate from every walk of life and engage one another in peaceful debate. It can get heated at times, but the practice is to walk away in peace after all has been said. Hatun Tash was a regular participant at Speaker's Corner. She would regularly debate against her former Islamic faith.

Prime example of Islam meets the West. Both world-views are fully represented in this incident.







Edit: Apparently she has been physically attacked multiple times for things such as mocking the Prophet of Islam and wearing Charlie Hebdo shirts.

 

[mjfan23]

Here's something to be measured... Christian Preacher stabbed at Speaker's Corner in London England.

Hatun Tash is a Syrian/Muslim born convert to Christianity. In her application for political asylum , she wrote things against the Islamic faith, including things against her brothers which resulted in her brothers being murdered in Syria after Hatun had moved to England. When confronted about the brothers' deaths and the things she wrote about them (Video available on YouTube), she didn't say whether those things were true or not.

Speaker's Corner is a place where people congregate from every walk of life and engage one another in peaceful debate. It can get heated at times, but the practice is to walk away in peace after all has been said. Hatun Tash was a regular participant at Speaker's Corner. She would regularly debate against her former Islamic faith.

Prime example of Islam meets the West. Both world-views are fully represented in this incident.







Edit: Apparently she has been physically attacked multiple times for things such as mocking the Prophet of Islam and wearing Charlie Hebdo shirts.

That sounds pretty compatible with western culture TBH.

CRT must have been written by a Muslim, how they justify being non Muslim as a crime is what the west is teaching us these days about being white lmao

Only difference is Islam is based on text that’s hundreds of years old. CRT is modern, and heavily promoted today.